From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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flynnibus

Premium Member
I'm sure Walt Disney Productions and RCID did something to help control the wildlife population back then

..and they still do today.

This isn't random, completely weird alligator attack. This is alligator-sized meal, playing in alligator-compatible hunt zone, during alligator feeding hours. You gotta keep like to like if you actually want to talk about comparisons.
 

MOXOMUMD

Well-Known Member
Agreed on people doing what they want regardless of signs... I think it about a week ago that some idiot ignored warning signs at Yellowstone that warned about getting off of the boardwalk... As I understand it they weren't even able to recover much of his remains because he left the board walk and ended up in a pool of super hot acid that pretty much dissolved most everything.
Same as the lady who climbed up to sit on the very top railing and fell over backwards off the Carnival ship. Signs unfortunately will always be ignored by some.
 

plutofan15

Well-Known Member
At what point does a company's responsibility end when it comes to warning customers of potential dangers? Florida is the lightning capital of the U.S.and not everyone is aware of that fact. If a guest is struck by lightning during the nearly daily summer thunderstorms, is Disney responsible? Do they have to warn everyone of the dangers of lightning? Both lightning and the alligator are part of nature and more people are killed by lightning every year than alligator attacks. If guests were warned of every possible danger that may occur, nobody would ever leave the room and there would be warning signs every three feet. I feel absolutely awful for the family but some things are just unfortunate acts of God.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And how many years of your life were spent in Florida? Because apparently all people who have lived in Florida know not to go near any water anywhere in the state.

They know not to let their poodles play in the water at night.

Your sarcasm glosses over significant parts of the story to make your points. Because they are bunkus.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And guess what? We are reasonably safe. As in- 1 out of 2.4 million chance. If you believe that there is imminent danger then you should also believe that you will win the lottery.

The same can be said of the ocean... there are risk factors that can lead to you being injured by wildlife. We don't call it a 'freak accident' when a shark actually attacks someone, or someone gets hurt by a crab. We don't call for more signs warning people from the midwest that the ocean is full of wild creatures. We don't debate on how the town needs to work to exterminate all life in the beach areas. We don't debate if the parents should have let their kid in the ocean, knowing or not, about the wild creatures.

We accept these are things that can happen when playing in the ocean, and continue to do so because we know the frequency and probability of being injured is very low. But we also accept that people often increase their risk factors for incidents when they do things that increase those probabilities. Doing so we don't scold them, we just accept they made choices, and those choices can have consequences.

The only debate comes up when people do things that contribute to the outcome, then act like they did nothing wrong and it was someone else's fault. Like when swimmers swim in the ocean w/o guards and then challenge the beaches as unsafe.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Mike Hamilton should be fired.
I would expect Mike to be fired. The last thing Disney would want after an incident where someone dies is for a castmember to say anything to the press, whether they thought they were being honest or not, whether they were trying to be helpful or not, talking to the press is a big no no.... has been in every company I have ever worked for and I'm sure its the same for Disney. Any communications with the media goes through the investor relations or public relations group.
 

peter11435

Well-Known Member
I'd like to ask **** Nunis how he handled the problem back in the 1970s. Surely, there were more alligators (and snakes and spiders and ticks and bees and snipes). That was back when you could swim and SURF in the Seven Seas Lagoon. I'm sure Walt Disney Productions and RCID did something to help control the wildlife population back then. Something happened along the way to allow them to flourish. To me, I tend to place some blame on TDO for a lack of maintenance by not monitoring the regional wildlife - in much the same way Disneyland management was responsible for the BTMM and Columbia accidents. However, in the final analysis, I feel that most of the blame, sadly, falls on poor Walt. He's the one that decided to build a resort in the middle of Florida.
There are FAR more alligators in Florida (and WDW) today than there were in the 70's. But it has nothing to do with anything Disney has or has not done. It's the result of a successful program to save the species from extinction.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Can that continue knowing that there are alligators in there? Maybe you can still rent boats but I for one would never go water skiing or anything that would involve me getting in that water knowing what could be lurking down there.

The alligators have always been there. This isn't about a new predator in the area - this is about the predator striking in a moment of opportunity in an area people were not aware of the risks so they are upset about it.

You really aren't at risk from the small gators.. nor from gators when out there ski'ing etc. You're too big for them as well as all the movement/etc.

Your concern is something that has always been a risk... but its very low to the point you don't focus on it.

When someone loses their life, you have to be very strict and change the rules so that you ensure that a freak accident like this doesn't occur again.

Or.. instead of overreaching overreactions you look at what actually contributed to the outcome and address those items.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
I'm not your Mom, but I feel compelled to wade back in here (even if the waters are more dangerous due to persistent ignorance and insanity). I know the figure is high ... mental illness in the fan community is likely off the proverbial charts, and something I have contemplated writing a book on. And it gets worse in situations like this because they realize that Disney really isn't safe, that no place is. And then the attacking. It had to be bad parenting, which to be fair is on display at WDW right now just about at every turn, right? Or just a terrible happenstance? Something so terrible it has never happened before.
But ... a more reasonable person might look at current circumstances, try and see if anything has changed, and what might need to be changed to eliminate even more risk to Guests and to Disney's coffers.

So, I'm going to disagree with you here. Just in part, but it is a very important part.



Don't disagree with this. Although a reasonable person would realize they are never fully safe anywhere. But 99% true.



Again, can't really disagree. Floridians, indeed anyone living in the SE USA, would be (or you'd hope) smart enough to know there are hidden dangers. ... In all the insanity this thread has cultivated, I forgot to mention another personal incident I had about a decade plus ago on the beach at the Poly while waiting for fireworks at dusk. This was in a very well-lit area just to the right of the dock. People were sitting, kids were wading and I was doing what I have done there since childhood ... walking in the water ... no more than six-eight inches of water. Basically enjoying all that white sandy bottom on my tired feet when ... I saw a large snake slither by in the water. I have seen water moccasins and it didn't seem to be one, but my **** moved very quickly to dry sand. I yelled to the kids in the water and the parents and ... and ... and they didn't do a damn thing. Either they didn't think I was serious, they didn't think it could harm them or (c'mon, you want this one as bad as a fanboi wants to hookup with an Imagineer) they wanted their kids to get bitten and then sue Disney!!

Point being is that nature is nature and in FL that means all sorts of scary type critters share paradise with us. You have to take them seriously. Guest, Cast ... and WDW Co. And that brings me to this point:



And this is where we disagree. Education is definitely part of the answer.

And there is fault. There are multiple news outlets, including the O-Sentinel that never pushes Disney, that say Disney had a problem with Guests feeding gators. The Wrap is reporting that Disney has had issues with Guests at the new Poly DVC bungalows feedings them as I suggested.

In my experience and the experience of CM friends, I find this to be very accurate. This very thread shows a mommy and her kids throwing food to turtles when a gator swims up at Coronado Springs.

Education means a few things:

1.) It means having signs on those MAGICal beaches that say that potentially dangerous wildlife, including alligators and poisonous snakes, may be present at any time. That also includes little renderings of the critters, so language isn't an issue for anyone;

2.) It means having Guests at EVERY resort sign docs saying they will not feed any wildlife under possible penalty of being removed from WDW, possibly banned, and fined.

3.) It means special warnings and vigilance for all these hot, pricey over-the-water accommodations that DVC has been adding.

4.) It also means that CMs, often $10 an hour ones (do any still make less?) need to be trained to be proactive, so when a baby gator is seen in the RoA and idiots are tossing turkey leg pieces at it that they can go up and order the Guests to stop and call for other CMs and know they won't lose their job because the Guest they just 'insulted' is spending more in two weeks than they will make in six months. This will be difficult because Disney doesn't have managers with a clue, so something will need to change institutionally.

5.) There has to be a growing understanding up to George K's office (the man has lived in Central FL almost his entire life, has worked at WDW for almost his entire adult life and is not an idiot, well he can be but not the point) that due to WDW's aggressive build out of "the Florida Project" over the last 20 years coupled with insane growth all around the resort, which has put a huge strain on area wildlife and made encounters more likely. That means Disney has to be proactive ... and, no, that doesn't mean making beaches locked down zones. Why anyone would stay on waterfront property and not want to spend time in it is akin to taking a vegetarian to the best steakhouse in town.

So, is this WDW's fault. Not directly ... but kinda ... and sorta ... well, yeah, it is. ... Guest and Cast ignorance are ultimately things that Disney needs to be accountable for. And they have done more for less ... remember that 20 years ago, there were no gates on any attractions or the monorails because common sense said people won't walk into a flume without a boat present or onto coaster tracks or monorail beams. That changed because there was liability. There certainly is liability here.
Standing by and watching someone toss turkey leg to a gator is criminally negligent...

I say this as someone whos had a turkey leg grabbed from my hand by one of those white, canniballistic birds in Frontierland
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
I'm not someone who believes that Disney should be blamed for this. I look at it as a terrible accident and nothing more. However, I do think that something needs to change going forward. There's a lot of activity in that water. People rent small boats and even go water skiing. Can that continue knowing that there are alligators in there? Maybe you can still rent boats but I for one would never go water skiing or anything that would involve me getting in that water knowing what could be lurking down there.

Going to be interesting to see what Disney does here going forward. When someone loses their life, you have to be very strict and change the rules so that you ensure that a freak accident like this doesn't occur again.
I hope they do not cancel the water sports. Millions of people enjoy those activities.
There is absolutely no need to put a stop to them.
I also hope they do not install a fence.

But on a side note- Can we stop saying these parents are "from Nebraska so probably didn't know about alligators".

I think it's pretty insulting to assume that. They probably knew, and just as myself and so many others, didn't really think that knowing alligators are in a body of water means that you will be attacked by one.
 

natatomic

Well-Known Member
I would expect Mike to be fired. The last thing Disney would want after an incident where someone dies is for a castmember to say anything to the press, whether they thought they were being honest or not, whether they were trying to be helpful or not, talking to the press is a big no no.... has been in every company I have ever worked for and I'm sure its the same for Disney. Any communications with the media goes through the investor relations or public relations group.

It is actually in every single operating guideline for every role that has one, "Do not make statements to the media."
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
The alligators have always been there. This isn't about a new predator in the area - this is about the predator striking in a moment of opportunity in an area people were not aware of the risks so they are upset about it.

You really aren't at risk from the small gators.. nor from gators when out there ski'ing etc. You're too big for them as well as all the movement/etc.

Your concern is something that has always been a risk... but its very low to the point you don't focus on it.



Or.. instead of overreaching overreactions you look at what actually contributed to the outcome and address those items.
Exactly. When someone hits a deer they don't call for all deer to be exterminated from the area. Or a wall built around every road.

So many of these "suggestions" and "demands" and "cancelling water skiing etc" are really becoming over the top.

No one can 100% protect you from life, and any accident that could occur.
It isn't possible.

Really, we could all walk around in bubble ball gear, and every enjoyable place we visit could be closed. But does anyone actually want to live like that?
 
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