News FPs cancelled when Hotel room cancelled

[lazyboy97o]

Clearly you've never worked merge at an attraction where after a parade or show dump people flood your FastPass line with piles of FP's from literally 4-5+ hours prior (because who cares about time windows) plus Guest Assistance Cards. You get so inundated to the point where your FP line is out the door and down the ramp and you have to let in standby 2-3 people at a time while FastPass floods through, still taking an hour plus to clear out the line and meanwhile you're getting verbally and potentially physically threatened by the people in standby. This was not just during busy periods this was literally a daily occurrence.

The old system was broken the minute Disney decided that it was ok to honor FP's as long as the initial time had passed on the ticket. This literally allowed people to hoard tickets throughout the day and blow through a bunch of attractions at once. When FP+ was getting ready to roll out and we had to start enforcing the timeslots, people were furious and I received threats of physical harm on numerous occasions.

So do not sit there on your pedestal and tell me that the old system was better when you were never on the receiving end of its flaws just because you don't like having to be proactive and plan out your day in advance.

FastPass+ increased the ratio, still frequently creating long FastPass lines that bring Stand-By to a stand still. Merge points are now desired to have Stand-By and FastPass+ physically separated due to physical altercations between guests.

 

[Trackmaster]

Clearly you've never worked merge at an attraction where after a parade or show dump people flood your FastPass line with piles of FP's from literally 4-5+ hours prior (because who cares about time windows) plus Guest Assistance Cards. You get so inundated to the point where your FP line is out the door and down the ramp and you have to let in standby 2-3 people at a time while FastPass floods through, still taking an hour plus to clear out the line and meanwhile you're getting verbally and potentially physically threatened by the people in standby. This was not just during busy periods this was literally a daily occurrence.

The old system was broken the minute Disney decided that it was ok to honor FP's as long as the initial time had passed on the ticket. This literally allowed people to hoard tickets throughout the day and blow through a bunch of attractions at once. When FP+ was getting ready to roll out and we had to start enforcing the timeslots, people were furious and I received threats of physical harm on numerous occasions.

So do not sit there on your pedestal and tell me that the old system was better when you were never on the receiving end of its flaws just because you don't like having to be proactive and plan out your day in advance.

But the solution is that you just prioritize the FP+ line to the point that the line is drained quickly. If they were hoarding passes, there were times that they weren't using them, so during those times, you prioritize the stand-by.

I agree with you about the same day availability. Ideally they could do a hybrid system. Allot say 60% to advanced booking and 40% to an app based version of the old system. If you reserve in advance you can't use the same day until the reservations are used or expire. That way people that like to plan will be able to but people who don't (like me) can be more spontaneous and at least have a decent chance to get FOP even if the FP ends up several hours later. The old system let you get another FP after 2 hrs if your FP was more than 2 hrs away.

Pretty much all that they would have to do is give the three guaranteed reservations (based on the 60 day/30 day first come, first serve system), do away with the +1 reservations after you drained your reservations, and give away the tickets on top in the classic version provided that you physically go to the ride to get them first. All that you would have to do is expand the tickets given out. Maybe in this system a FP+ line might go from 5 minutes to 15 minutes, and the stand-by would be longer, but guests would get more FP+ opportunities and guests could walk into parks with no planning and still have a shot at a good day.

I think that 15 minutes is about the point that the average guest is understanding about waits, and they don't really complain that much until it hits 30 minutes So expanding FP+ could work provided that the majority of the FP+ lines don't go past 15 minutes.

 

[wdisney9000]

Clearly you've never worked merge at an attraction where after a parade or show dump people flood your FastPass line with piles of FP's from literally 4-5+ hours prior (because who cares about time windows) plus Guest Assistance Cards. You get so inundated to the point where your FP line is out the door and down the ramp and you have to let in standby 2-3 people at a time while FastPass floods through, still taking an hour plus to clear out the line

Disney replaced GAC with DAS and put expiration times on FP+, but FP+ lines that stretch out the door are now a much more common occurrence and you see it happening at attractions that used to have no FP at all and still maintained a decent standby wait. What exactly did FP+ "fix"?

 

[JohnD]

Honest question here: Not that I would try this. I'm an annual passholder. Let's say I make a WDW resort reservation more than 60 days out. At 60 days, I schedule my FPs. Within 30 days of my trip, I cancel my WDW resort reservations. APs have a rolling 30 days. Would I keep my FPs or would they still be cancelled?

 

[Tom P.]

Disney replaced GAC with DAS and put expiration times on FP+, but FP+ lines that stretch out the door are now a much more common occurrence and you see it happening at attractions that used to have no FP at all and still maintained a decent standby wait. What exactly did FP+ "fix"?

I agree that there is definitely a problem with the implementation of FastPass+. It also doesn't make sense from a business perspective, either. While there are multiple factors, the main motivating factor behind Disney doing FP+ in the first place is to get guests to spend less time in line so that they have more time to be in the shops and restaurants spending their money. But when FP+ leads to multi-hour waits, that's not happening.

 

[DisneyCane]

But the solution is that you just prioritize the FP+ line to the point that the line is drained quickly. If they were hoarding passes, there were times that they weren't using them, so during those times, you prioritize the stand-by.



Pretty much all that they would have to do is give the three guaranteed reservations (based on the 60 day/30 day first come, first serve system), do away with the +1 reservations after you drained your reservations, and give away the tickets on top in the classic version provided that you physically go to the ride to get them first. All that you would have to do is expand the tickets given out. Maybe in this system a FP+ line might go from 5 minutes to 15 minutes, and the stand-by would be longer, but guests would get more FP+ opportunities and guests could walk into parks with no planning and still have a shot at a good day.

I think that 15 minutes is about the point that the average guest is understanding about waits, and they don't really complain that much until it hits 30 minutes So expanding FP+ could work provided that the majority of the FP+ lines don't go past 15 minutes.

I would agree that the vast majority of guests would be happy to wait up to 25 minutes for any attraction. If you could set up a hybrid system that allows a way to use FP for most attractions and have the FP line be under 30 minutes you'd have a winner for everybody. Just need to make clear that FP is not a line bypass, it's a lower wait time.

For the "classic" part of the system, I don't think you should have to physically go to the attraction. You should be able to do it with the app but have it location fenced that you have to be in the park where the attraction is located.

I would go a step further and make tier 1 attractions where you could only get 1 FP per day.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I agree with you about the same day availability. Ideally they could do a hybrid system. Allot say 60% to advanced booking and 40% to an app based version of the old system. If you reserve in advance you can't use the same day until the reservations are used or expire. That way people that like to plan will be able to but people who don't (like me) can be more spontaneous and at least have a decent chance to get FOP even if the FP ends up several hours later. The old system let you get another FP after 2 hrs if your FP was more than 2 hrs away.

My suggestion is 1 advanced booking, 1 additional upon entering the park. Both become rolling FP after use. I'd prefer that any "rolling" Fastpasses would just give you next available (for simplicity), but since they've built the ability to "schedule" I wouldn't really oppose that remaining under my suggested system. In the interest of full disclosure, when I'm traveling with my autistic brother that's essentially how we operate after the first 3 FP+ reservations are made.

I know Jim Hill and @lentesta have often discussed the Disney scenario of wanting to schedule 10 attractions. While I don't think they have the ride capacity to do this, I think there are ways (such as what I suggested) to get guests on 10 attractions with minimal waits.

Another alternative to all of this is a system that would give guests return times for Standby on attractions where waits regularly exceed an hour.

 

[Trackmaster]

I would agree that the vast majority of guests would be happy to wait up to 25 minutes for any attraction. If you could set up a hybrid system that allows a way to use FP for most attractions and have the FP line be under 30 minutes you'd have a winner for everybody. Just need to make clear that FP is not a line bypass, it's a lower wait time.

For the "classic" part of the system, I don't think you should have to physically go to the attraction. You should be able to do it with the app but have it location fenced that you have to be in the park where the attraction is located.

I would go a step further and make tier 1 attractions where you could only get 1 FP per day.

I mean, for me personally, the physical presence is a big part of what would make FP's more feasible, and better achieve the goals that Disney is trying to achieve. But, maybe to accommodate visits where the park is pretty dead and people don't want to walk from ride to ride, you could allow guests to use the app after they've used their first day of ticket.

I think that you have to start with the assumption that there are only so many seats that Disney has available in a day. You can do what you can with capacity, and getting people in and out faster, but generally virtual queuing systems won't help with capacity -- they won't get more butts in a seat in a day. The goal is to keep people occupied and distracted from the fact that they can't ride a ride on-demand.

So I think that the "wild goose chase" of having to go to a ride up front and pulling a ticket keeps people occupied and circulating around the park and productive, instead of angrily looking at the back of somebody's head in a stand-by line, or being bored waiting for their next window to start. In a sense, the idea of pushing a button and getting to the front of the line irks me. I think that to cut in front of big lines, you should need some skin in the game. I think that having to walk up to the entrance and go out of your way twice is decent skin in the game. But at the same time, to accommodate hotel guests and give an extra benefit to staying on site, Disney could also keep the three ahead of time FP+'s as a compromise.


But as a sidenote -- I thought that the original FP was an amazing marvel of innovation, and the algorithm that was used was awesome. It seemed like it did a perfect job of keeping the FP line short, making them available if you got there early enough, but also using the algorithm to determine a good amount of time to pass before you could get another so one didn't take up your whole day. But I could understand that Disney wanted to use the FP as a giveaway to resort guests to justify the expensive rooms and make extra money. I don't begrudge them too much for wanting to do that -- as they make it pretty cheap and productive to go for locals. I don't want to be a pig about my Disney experience at the expense of others.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

FastPass+ increased the ratio, still frequently creating long FastPass lines that bring Stand-By to a stand still. Merge points are now desired to have Stand-By and FastPass+ physically separated due to physical altercations between guests.

Correct and Everyone need understand this..

They made essentially everyone use the system (you have little choice) when prior not everyone did while using the same banks of rides.

There will be never be a solution to this...at least not one pursued.

The only way is for them to add a lot more capacity while experiencing an attendance drop.

That’s as likely as a meet and greet with a live unicorn

 

[Trackmaster]

My suggestion is 1 advanced booking, 1 additional upon entering the park. Both become rolling FP after use. I'd prefer that any "rolling" Fastpasses would just give you next available (for simplicity), but since they've built the ability to "schedule" I wouldn't really oppose that remaining under my suggested system. In the interest if full disclosure, when I'm traveling with my autistic brother that's essentially how we operate after the first 3 FP+ reservations are made.

I know Jim Hill and @lentesta have often discussed the Disney scenario of wanting to schedule 10 attractions. While I don't think they have the ride capacity to do this, I think there are ways (such as what I suggested) to get guests on 10 attractions with minimal waits.

Another alternative to all of this is a system that would give guests return times for Standby on attractions where waits regularly exceed an hour.

I think that the problem is that while yes, at a "normal" amusement park, you might expect the productivity of 10+ laps per visit, but at Disney they just could never dream of accommodating that many people on even a moderate day if 75% or more of guests took them up on the 10 lap offer. A better plan might be the following:

• Maybe offer 100 points to reserve with, but assign different point values to rides based on predicted ride demand, actual number of reservations outstanding, and time of day requested. Assign the values so that you could choose to have 10 laps on very low demand rides, 2 laps on very high demand rides with an extra lap on a low demand ride, or something in between.
• Offer a few day of tickets that you have to get from a ride kiosk ahead of time to get.
• Restrict the stand-by so that it was more true to its name. The CM's were free to split up groups over two to their liking to maximize capacity and not leave empties (they would guarantee that if you sat with at least one person in your party unless you had an odd number). Just like with flying, you go stand-by at the park's convenience. Ideally, I might have a even numbered group line, and a single/third wheel line. You had to decide before you got in line who the third wheel was (to make sure its not a kid).

 

[Trackmaster]

Correct and Everyone need understand this..

They made essentially everyone use the system (you have little choice) when prior not everyone did while using the same banks of rides.

There will be never be a solution to this...at least not one pursued.

The only way is for them to add a lot more capacity while experiencing an attendance drop.

That’s as likely as a meet and greet with a live unicorn

Well, love it or hate, its moved from being a virtual queue system to becoming a reservation system. Think about how you prefer to make doctor's appointments instead of walking in and waiting hours whenever you felt like it. Having designated reservations makes a certain amount of sense in many ways -- its just bringing to light how out of whack demand is compared to the supply of available seats. But anyway, I think that people are catching onto the importance of FP's these days.

 

[SirWillow]

Clearly you've never worked merge at an attraction where after a parade or show dump people flood your FastPass line with piles of FP's from literally 4-5+ hours prior (because who cares about time windows) plus Guest Assistance Cards.

Easy fix to that, and one I never understood why Disney didn't enforce- once the fast pass window is closed, it's closed. No using a fastpass an hour after its expiration.

 

[Touchdown]

Bring on the hate but...

Disneyland has discovered the perfect system it’s called Maxpass. If I was king of WDW, all resort guests and Platinum pass holders would get this for free. Everyone else has to pay a fee per ticket per day. You can’t preorder FPs but the moment you enter a park you can, same rules as DL, you can book an additional FP for any park 90 min after, or when your window starts for your current FP if less then 90 min from now, but no less then 30 min.

The one difference I would not allow any free FP use like DL does.

 

[disneyspirit]

I've canceled before and kept Fast Passes, but they were for the Safari, Everest, and Dinosaur, so not really anything for Disney to get mad about. I didn't book for the window, it was my wife's birthday and she decided to stay off property at a much nicer hotel for around the same price. I was shocked that Disney had no cancelation fee, bet that's coming too.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the lack of FoP on the first day played a role in our cancellation. The three we ended up getting are all typically available at the 30 day mark, and probably the day of in most cases (we were there on a weekday in October). We were upset that after well over a year, it was still impossible to get FoP passes despite having a reservation and checking on day 60, the first day we could. Coupled with the added parking charges, we decided it wasn't worth it and stayed off property at a nicer hotel with free parking. I will say that had we scored FoP passes, we probably wouldn't have cancelled. Other factors played a role too, but I think we would have just toughed it out and kept the reservation. Without the window though, the added parking and less features (it was All Star Movies), it wasn't worth it to us.

I was hesitant to say that we booked a night hoping to get FoP. Didn't work but we made the rest of our picks. It wouldn't occur to me I would be able to keep my 60 day FPs if I cancelled. I'm glad they're fixing that loophole.

 

[SirWillow]

Bring on the hate but...

Disneyland has discovered the perfect system it’s called Maxpass. If I was king of WDW, all resort guests and Platinum pass holders would get this for free. Everyone else has to pay a fee per ticket per day. You can’t preorder FPs but the moment you enter a park you can, same rules as DL, you can book an additional FP for any park 90 min after, or when your window starts for your current FP if less then 90 min from now, but no less then 30 min.

The one difference I would not allow any free FP use like DL does.

I'm actually looking forward to trying this out this October at Disneyland to see how well it works. personally, I'll take just about anything over Fastpass+ which I think is seriously flawed in far to many ways.

 

[Trackmaster]

Bring on the hate but...

Disneyland has discovered the perfect system it’s called Maxpass. If I was king of WDW, all resort guests and Platinum pass holders would get this for free. Everyone else has to pay a fee per ticket per day. You can’t preorder FPs but the moment you enter a park you can, same rules as DL, you can book an additional FP for any park 90 min after, or when your window starts for your current FP if less then 90 min from now, but no less then 30 min.

The one difference I would not allow any free FP use like DL does.

I think that giving the cheapskate guests something at least makes them feel like Disney cares about being egalitarian and not just soaking up every dime of profit that they can. And every other chain has the pay for play queue jumping program, I think that as the most expensive park chain, it makes sense for Disney to offer some kind of accommodation for the guests who pay less. At Disney, no matter who you are, you probably paid a lot of money to be there.

Giving the extra 30 days for resort guests was a modest and subtle way to give a benefit to staying on site without having to be pigs about it like Universal and the other chains.

 

[bpadair32]

This seems to have veered way off the original topic.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I think that the problem is that while yes, at a "normal" amusement park, you might expect the productivity of 10+ laps per visit, but at Disney they just could never dream of accommodating that many people on even a moderate day if 75% or more of guests took them up on the 10 lap offer. A better plan might be the following:

• Maybe offer 100 points to reserve with, but assign different point values to rides based on predicted ride demand, actual number of reservations outstanding, and time of day requested. Assign the values so that you could choose to have 10 laps on very low demand rides, 2 laps on very high demand rides with an extra lap on a low demand ride, or something in between.
• Offer a few day of tickets that you have to get from a ride kiosk ahead of time to get.
• Restrict the stand-by so that it was more true to its name. The CM's were free to split up groups over two to their liking to maximize capacity and not leave empties (they would guarantee that if you sat with at least one person in your party unless you had an odd number). Just like with flying, you go stand-by at the park's convenience. Ideally, I might have a even numbered group line, and a single/third wheel line. You had to decide before you got in line who the third wheel was (to make sure its not a kid).

You're over complicating it. Why not just have 5 levels of attractions and give each guest a set number of "tickets" to each level.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Easy fix to that, and one I never understood why Disney didn't enforce- once the fast pass window is closed, it's closed. No using a fastpass an hour after its expiration.

They've done this. They built in 5 minutes early and 15 minutes late which is perfectly acceptable from a front of the house operations standpoint.

 

[Whippet Mom]

That is great. Next step will be to figure out how to counteract the ones that book a long trip (so their 60 day window opens earlier), make FPs, and then trim down the trip to the days they are really going.

WOW, It's amazing what some people will do just for a fastpass.. I had no idea!