FP+ meltdown part x

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I have no idea why they haven't done that yet. It seems so obvious to everyone else. My only guess is that the system is buggy and horrible enough as it is...maybe once they get all the kinks worked out, they'll add it in there.

On the other hand, maybe they wouldn't add it to the system if DL doesn't have that same convenience. Given the lawsuit started in CA, those people out there might be ed that it's "more accommodating" in WDW than there. Just a thought.
The kiosks are in place at Disneyland. It's surprising that they're not in Florida. The only explanation I can come up with is that the kiosks are only for the DAS system, whereas in Florida they would likely be combined DAS and FP+.
 

dadddio

Well-Known Member
Hang on, your logic seems flawed to me. You're saying that Standby times went down when GAC was eliminated. But by eliminating GAC that forced more people into the Standby line. So if there really were that many people using GAC to skip Standby and go directly into the FP line then shouldn't the Standby line go up when they can't do that anymore?
No. Eliminating GAC reduces the time in somewhat the same way that FP+ does.

Those that utilized that GAC procedure to 'FP' a ride multiple times are unlikely to ride that ride as many times. This frees up some ride capacity to be filled via SB.

FP+ does basically the same thing. People who used to get a number of FPs for a ride get limited to one. This opens up FP+ slots to people who would otherwise use the SB line. Both the original FP user and the new additional FP+ users are unlikely to use the SB line to take second rides so there is a reduction of SB wait times.
 

dadddio

Well-Known Member
And I hope you realize that those matter. Because if the system is "good for some and bad for others" and appears to be no net gain, then WDC has a real problem. The "bad for others" category will discourage repeat customers, which takes away future revenue and seriously encroaches upon Disney's "excellent customer service" reputation. Negative word-of-mouth usually goes a lot further than a positive experience (especially for someone like Disney, from whom excellence is the earlier reputation).

So, over the long term, there is a risk to the engine that drives more revenue: the repeat guest.

In that case it seems like $2 billion spent on arranging the deck chairs, instead of on actually fresh experiences.
Your entire thesis is based on a premise that at least as many people dislike the new system as like it in order to come up with no net gain. That is a supposition that is unproven and unprovable.
 

prberk

Well-Known Member
Your entire thesis is based on a premise that at least as many people dislike the new system as like it in order to come up with no net gain. That is a supposition that is unproven and unprovable.

No, I was addressing the post that I was quoting, which had taken someone's detailed bad experience and simply said, "Then you would fall into the 'There are those here who have had bad experiences with the system' category," with a wink that almost came off as smug to me in response to a person that had poured out the details of his/her poor exprerience and why he/she thought it should matter. I respected both posters' ideas, but I wanted to draw out the logical conclusion of the second one in a business model that starts with the assumption of fantastic customer service.

My response also took into account the persistent themes in many recent posts that seemed to say that it was not really new, but different, and mostly a balanced change: a lot of, "well, it will be good for some, and bad for others." Even the one with the statistical approach with the "touring plans" survey link discussed that overall times were only slightly changed -- with slightly shorter lines for the E-ticket headliners, and longer lines for the A- and B-ticket rides.

I have not heard a lot of defenders here say that the system is fantastic and serves everyone well, or even offer a solution as to how it could be used to address the folks with genuine, specific concerns or bad experiences. They mostly have answered, like the one above, some version of, "Well, it will not work for everyone...".
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
My point, which seems to have been missed, is that bad experiences (bugs and technical glitches) are not the sole reason why some of us dislike the system. If Disney somehow got the system working perfectly, I'd still dislike having to schedule every minute of my vacation and having no flexibility to be spontaneous (since that typically results in no FP+ availability and long lines). The system has fundamentally changed my WDW vacation in a very negative way.
 

WelshBatman

Active Member
My point, which seems to have been missed, is that bad experiences (bugs and technical glitches) are not the sole reason why some of us dislike the system. If Disney somehow got the system working perfectly, I'd still dislike having to schedule every minute of my vacation and having no flexibility to be spontaneous (since that typically results in no FP+ availability and long lines). The system has fundamentally changed my WDW vacation in a very negative way.

This is so right. Why does everything in life have to be so regimented and scheduled? I get enough of that in the real world, it's not for vacation time. The problem I've seen, even with my sister and her kids, is that some people just can't seem to function without that schedule. They need every minute planned out. Disney has pandered to that crowd to almost the exclusion of those of us who just want to wake up and take whatever bus shows up first at the hotel and see where the day takes us.

It's not wrong to have an idea of what to see and the old fastpass system was pretty decent. I overheard at least 2 conversations at Hollywood Studios last week that made me think. The first was a couple at The Great Movie Ride who were at the fastpass + queue inside the "theater." They were arguing with the girl at the kiosk because they were convinced that they wouldn't have to wait at all in any line because they had a fastpass. So many people seem to be of that perception and I'd have to say that it's gotta be mostly first timers who have this idea, but still Disney isn't pointing out that while you may have a greatly reduced wait time, it doesn't mean NO wait time. I kinda wonder if this is what Disney meant by people complaining about the old system in that people complained because they had their own perceptions about what the system should be and not what it was.

The other conversation I overheard was in line at Star Tours and this couple were planning their day out around their fastpasses and they were talking about they had done so much (and it was only about 10:30am) and they had a fastpass at 5:30pm. They were kinda getting antsy about what they were gonna do between their fastpass times (I believe they said their other fastpass was for 12:15pm). It seems that people are convinced they NEED to use the system and it's causing stress and anxiety. Not that you can't find stuff to do, but you've tied up your entire day with "appointments" instead of just enjoying yourself.

Whether or not they get the bugs fixed, the system has completely impacted everyone going to Disney and not entirely in a positive way but it's like Disney doesn't care. But let's face it, they spent about $2 billion (officially) on this system and even if it was a bust, they're way to deep to admit it now. They have to keep running with it.
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
The first was a couple at The Great Movie Ride who were at the fastpass + queue inside the "theater." They were arguing with the girl at the kiosk because they were convinced that they wouldn't have to wait at all in any line because they had a fastpass.

I agree with your points completely, but on that one guests have been doing that since original Fastpass was first introduced. See also, guests who have a restaurant reservation for 4.35 so on the dot at that time walk into the restaurant and sit themselves at a table without so much as a glance at the check-in desk (happens a lot).

I do suspect however that a lot *more* guests are complaining about having any wait in the Fastpass line, as MyMarketing never tells you to expect a 20 minute or more wait, whereas it was always very clear that the old system was for shorter waits, not line jumping completely.
 

G00fyDad

Well-Known Member
And I hope you realize that those matter. Because if the system is "good for some and bad for others" and appears to be no net gain, then WDC has a real problem. The "bad for others" category will discourage repeat customers, which takes away future revenue and seriously encroaches upon Disney's "excellent customer service" reputation. Negative word-of-mouth usually goes a lot further than a positive experience (especially for someone like Disney, from whom excellence is the earlier reputation).

So, over the long term, there is a risk to the engine that drives more revenue: the repeat guest.

In that case it seems like $2 billion spent on arranging the deck chairs, instead of on actually fresh experiences.

How did you get that conclusion from my post? I never once said anything like that. I'm kind of tired of people taking something I say and implying that I am saying something else.
 

G00fyDad

Well-Known Member
No, I was addressing the post that I was quoting, which had taken someone's detailed bad experience and simply said, "Then you would fall into the 'There are those here who have had bad experiences with the system' category," with a wink that almost came off as smug to me in response to a person that had poured out the details of his/her poor exprerience and why he/she thought it should matter. I respected both posters' ideas, but I wanted to draw out the logical conclusion of the second one in a business model that starts with the assumption of fantastic customer service.

My response also took into account the persistent themes in many recent posts that seemed to say that it was not really new, but different, and mostly a balanced change: a lot of, "well, it will be good for some, and bad for others." Even the one with the statistical approach with the "touring plans" survey link discussed that overall times were only slightly changed -- with slightly shorter lines for the E-ticket headliners, and longer lines for the A- and B-ticket rides.

I have not heard a lot of defenders here say that the system is fantastic and serves everyone well, or even offer a solution as to how it could be used to address the folks with genuine, specific concerns or bad experiences. They mostly have answered, like the one above, some version of, "Well, it will not work for everyone...".

That is exactly what I am talking about in my other post. You don't know me. You weren't sitting here while I typed that response. How do you know what I was doing?? I'd appreciate it if you could keep your assumptions to yourself. If I have something to say then I will say it. I don't hide my feelings and attitude behind thinly veiled comments. If I thought that they were just SOL due to a bad experience then I would have said so. However, that is not what I was trying to say at all.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
That is exactly what I am talking about in my other post. You don't know me. You weren't sitting here while I typed that response. How do you know what I was doing?? I'd appreciate it if you could keep your assumptions to yourself. If I have something to say then I will say it. I don't hide my feelings and attitude behind thinly veiled comments. If I thought that they were just SOL due to a bad experience then I would have said so. However, that is not what I was trying to say at all.

I get jumped on all the time by some on here, they don't read what you posted they read what they think you posted and then attack. In some case they are looking for a fight to release their bottled up Disney frustration and will read what they need too in your post to start that fight. IMO it is mainly because they are ed at Disney for "__________" and anybody who is not ed with them is the "enemy and thus deserves a good thrashing. They can't thrash Disney (who is not listening) so they thrash anybody they see as a supporter (i.e. Pixie Duster) of Disney.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
Who has a answer for a system that will make the vast majority of people happy? It's not the old FP system, that was never wildly embraced either. We all remember the threads on here and on other forums about the issue with it.

I would be fine with pulling all types of FP / reservations for rides and attractions out of the parks. But I don't think that is going to happen. So if old FP was not the answer and new FP is not the answer what is?
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
So if old FP was not the answer and new FP is not the answer what is?

The answer lies up the road.

Universal's Express Pass is really, really simple for anyone to understand, even if a guest has never heard of it until they step in the park for the first time - compared to Express, Disney has massively overthought this problem.

Express requires no pre-planning, anyone can buy it at any time, even late in the day, and still get on every ride, and it's free for guests of certain resorts as a perk.

There's no complicated logic, ride tiers, limitations or rules to worry about - one Express line at each ride, or unlimited for another fee. It's ridiculously simple, and in typical Universal style, both immensely profitable *and* has very high guest satisfaction ratings.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
The answer lies up the road.

Universal's Express Pass is really, really simple for anyone to understand, even if a guest has never heard of it until they step in the park for the first time - compared to Express, Disney has massively overthought this problem.

Express requires no pre-planning, anyone can buy it at any time, even late in the day, and still get on every ride, and it's free for guests of certain resorts as a perk.

There's no complicated logic, ride tiers, limitations or rules to worry about - one Express line at each ride, or unlimited for another fee. It's ridiculously simple, and in typical Universal style, both immensely profitable *and* has very high guest satisfaction ratings.
It would definitely help as a perk to get people to stay in the deluxe resorts but we would then have the problem and really predictable backlash of Disney going from a free system to a paid one. Is the Express that comes with the hotels the unlimited one or no?
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
It would definitely help as a perk to get people to stay in the deluxe resorts but we would then have the problem and really predictable backlash of Disney going from a free system to a paid one. Is the Express that comes with the hotels the unlimited one or no?

Yeah it's unlimited for hotel guests.

I don't think there would be much of a backlash, with BoG Disney has shown that it can make things hotel guest exclusive and still survive.

Disney has increased prices so much recently yet nobody cares, so I can't see them worrying about Fastpass Unlimited - especially if it's introduced as just another upcharge option, before being reduced then removed completely from regular tickets.

One way to avoid an outcry would be if they *dropped* admission by ten bucks, and introduced this system for an extra $50 (less than what it is at Universal most days), they could appear to be offering a real bargain.

Alternatively, a less drastic approach that keeps some of the existing system - so it's not a *complete* waste of 2 billion - might be to leave it open to everybody, but remove all advance booking functionality yet keep the kiosks where you can book a Fastpass. The catch though would be that you can only ever have one at a time, and you can't book another one until you've used the first one or a certain time has elapsed, and you get given the next available time instead of being able to choose one - but you can do that from any kiosk in the park.

That way you get the rules and fairness of the old Fastpass system, but also remove having to physically go to a ride to get a Fastpass, which seems to be the part people are most pleased they don't have to do anymore.
 

BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
The answer lies up the road.

Universal's Express Pass is really, really simple for anyone to understand, even if a guest has never heard of it until they step in the park for the first time - compared to Express, Disney has massively overthought this problem.

Express requires no pre-planning, anyone can buy it at any time, even late in the day, and still get on every ride, and it's free for guests of certain resorts as a perk.

There's no complicated logic, ride tiers, limitations or rules to worry about - one Express line at each ride, or unlimited for another fee. It's ridiculously simple, and in typical Universal style, both immensely profitable *and* has very high guest satisfaction ratings.

I would be fine with EP at WDW. I do think it's a deserved perk of resort guest. But the water is already under the bridge with FP and FP+ and I don't think WDW will go backwards. At the end of the day if I have to choose between FP and FP+ I will chose FP+. They both require "planning" and I rather do that ahead of time before I even make it to the park myself. :)
 

BroganMc

Well-Known Member
The problem with offering a Universal type of paid Express pass is that there are too many hotel guests in Disney World to support it. Universal's total hotel rooms are a fraction of what Disney offers. So who are you giving it to for free? The guests who pay to stay only at the Deluxe Resorts? What about DVC members? All their resorts are deluxe as well. Combined they will overload the system quickly.

No, I'd go a different route. I think the biggest beef people are having with FP+ is the lack of availability during people's trips. It has been sold to be as something that would allow them to "lock in must dos" and change it "on the go". But that's not happening now that everyone seems to be picking up the habit of all this preplanning on the most popular attractions.

My solution would be to allow everyone to book one absolute must-do per day before they arrive. Don't allow it until you do your resort online check-in. Letting hotel guests get a jump in the line once a day a week or so before everyone else will lock them into a particular park but not overload the system with too many bookings.

Then make the rest not bookable until the day of. Release times all at once or stage it so half gets released in the morning and the other half mid-day.

Allow people to have 3 FP+ bookings live at once in a revolving basis. When they use up one, let them book another 3rd. Don't let anyone get a FP+ for the same attraction twice in a day. This will encourage people to book more of the mid-range attractions while they still feel like they are getting to do everything.

Remove the restriction not allowing people to book FP+ in different parks. You can keep the tiers if you support park hopping in the FP+ selections. Right now having tiers and one park restrictions makes that park hopper option unsellable.

People love being able to book FP+ via their phones or other mobile devices. Keep that. And the MagicBands are getting good reviews now because they have worked out most of the reading bugs. (A few are still having issues but that problem has gotten much more rare.)

The kiosks are a necessary evil for folks who are offsite day trippers without MagicBands. But they shouldn't be used for the 4th and 5th FP+. Making onsite guests go there just clogs up the lines needlessly. The app should be able to handle that just fine.

I'd also put more resources into making that MDE work a lot faster and simpler. It still takes far too long to query the database and load pages. They need the resources of Google and Amazon.
 

JediMasterMatt

Well-Known Member
Who has a answer for a system that will make the vast majority of people happy?... So if old FP was not the answer and new FP is not the answer what is?

The answer lies up the road...

The answer is in having NO method of virtual queuing; but, instead have enough quality attraction capacity that wait times remain reasonable on their own. This is the only method that would make every guest happy. Old or new, FP of any sort will ultimately yield the "have and the have not" discrepancy. Those in stand by queuing will always feel slighted in seeing someone bypass their wait in line. Unfortunately, the virtual queuing genie can't be put back into the bottle; so, let's attack this from another angle - what purpose does FP serve and to who's benefit?

It's very naïve to think that FP/FP+/ExpressPass was created for the guest's benefit in terms of actually making their day more enjoyable. The concept of multi-tasking was borne out of the need to keep everyone in the parks waiting in the same lines for a majority of the day. How long of a line has always been a byproduct of "popularity" and capacity. Popularity is determined by how much value a guest places on the "worth" the attraction yield to them - is it an A,B, C, D, or E ticket in their mind. Capacity is how quickly the attraction can chew through that line. Very popular attractions can have very short wait times if the capacity is high enough or the opposite can hold true.

At the end of the day, FastPass was born out of necessity. The popular Disney attractions remained popular and guest satisfaction was impacted and their revenues were impacted by guests being tied up in long lines. The choice to try a virtual queue was obviously tantalizing enough to make the attempt. Relatively inexpensive to implement in comparison to rolling out another attraction worthy of drawing crowds, FastPass was born. For Disney, the ROI would be high because the perceived value to the guest would be high.

FastPass (paper) sorta worked. People bought into the concept of being able to do something else and come back later. The reasons why it "sorta" worked is best explained by why FastPass+ isn't.

The key differences between FP and FP+ in regards to the guest acceptance, if you boil it down isn't the shiny technology you use to interface with the system. The geewiz "I'm making a reservation from my phone" coolness is simply a perceived value. Whether the reservation as in the virtual world or a physical ticket, it doesn't impact guest satisfaction (except when the technology fails) like the two big differences: virtual queuing on everything & reservations in advance.

Virtual queuing on everything means that every ride and attraction has standby capacity impacted. With the old system, the only impact a popular attraction's addition of a virtual queue would have on a less popular attraction is if the potential guest on the popular attraction entered the standby line for a less popular one. Now, every attraction has their theoretical capacity reduced by virtually queued guests directed their way. The perceived value of a shorter return time is the carrot that is driving guests to these attractions that didn't use to draw a crowd.

Reservations made in advance is the other driver in the issues guests are having with the new system. Vacations are fickle thing. As much as you can plan your day, life interferes. Maybe you wake up feeling ill. Maybe it rains. Maybe you take too long to eat. Whatever the reason, every vacation doesn't go according to plan. This means that not every FP+ return time is being utilized. The difference is that this is happening with a reservation made prior to the guest ever stepping foot into the park, let alone made "shortly" before the guest decides to experience the attraction like the old system. To compensate for this, FP+ overbooks the available slots and when that overbooking fails and everyone shows up - the line increases. Of course the same can happen the inverse to the standby guests "advantage" when people don't show up and the estimated standby time is less than advertised. The key difference between the old paper FP and the FP+ system is the reservation choice was made days before the moment of truth instead of within a "reasonable" window where the individual is more probable they are going to fulfill their reservation.

It's these two points that are reason why guests aren't in love with FP+. I'd contend if you took both of these off the table and just use FP+ on the old rides that had FP with the new tech, it would have a higher degree of acceptance than the old system as the need to "run" to get a paper ticket wouldn't be an issue. Of course if this was done, then there really wouldn't have been a reason to spend money on FP+ as there would be no value gained for TDO. Which brings us back to why it was done to begin with.

In their minds eye, FP+ was cheaper than putting in enough quality attractions to draw the crowds away from the current popular attractions. The are banking on the perceived value of selling a person on "a short wait time on a Disney Mountain" that you can "make from your mobile device" and you can "reserve it days in advance". Their hope that this promise is enough to keep guests happy. Of course the sad reality is that when the time comes, you may not be able to make that Mountain reservation and if you do get it, you may miss out on a bunch of other attractions that you use to be able to fit into the same day because they are now busier with people steered to it. Of course, if you can't do it today... you can come back tomorrow. *which is exactly what they want.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Having just done 2 days at Universal/Islands, one day at SeaWorld, and a night at Not So Scary, I have a new-found appreciation for My Magic Plus and the MagicBands.

We stayed at Lowes Royal Pacific at Universal, so in order to function on a normal day we had to juggle everyone's park ticket (printed on thin cardstock), our express passes (also printed on thin cardstock) the hotel key cards, our baggage claim slip, and a parking pass. Not really a problem per-se, but the express passes had to be pulled out every time we used them (which I'm sure thrilled the guests we were passing in line). By the end of the first day they were looking pretty ragged, and by the end of day two, being pulled out several more times (and being wet due to their super-aggressive water rides) had nearly disintegrated them. Suddenly, Disney's system (which had already worked great for us on two prior trips) was making more and more sense. I really don't see why it would be so difficult for Universal to be able to unify my park pass, Express Pass, and hotel key and put them all on a single plastic card that can hold up to two days of theme parking.

For the record, our magic bands worked flawlessly (again) for Not so Scary, and we were even able to schedule and make two FP+ times before the party officially started.
I'm not even sure we were supposed to be able to book those, considering we didn't have any normal Disney park tickets this trip.
 

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