FP+ meltdown part x

[G00fyDad]

Honestly, I think the people who are raving about FP+ went earlier this year when it was working. Anyone who's recently traveled there is seeing how horrible it has become. It's so useless you are better off going Standby

If it is truly broken right now then I hope they get it fixed soon. If they cannot get it fixed then it should be done away with. I will hate to see a system like this leave, but if it is broken now (Yes, it worked flawlessly last October) then it should be re-evaluated and removed if the problems cannot be fixed. This may be someone attempting to save their career. No one wants to be known as the man/woman that ushered in a tech system that failed so famously. There are those here that have had bad experiences with the system, and there are those that hate the system just to hate it. I feel bad for anyone who truly had issues.

 

[BroganMc]

Gahhhh, okay, I'll bite. We were monitoring GAC usage for months before the switch at major attractions, counting every single person that came through the FP line with them. Then, once DAS switched over, we kept monitoring the lines. Disney will never release the numbers, I'm sure, because like I said, they want FP+ to take all the credit. But from Christmas season with GAC compared to the next Christmas season with DAS, SB wait times were on average 10-15 minutes less* with DAS compared to GAC despite similar park attendance numbers.

Hang on, your logic seems flawed to me. You're saying that Standby times went down when GAC was eliminated. But by eliminating GAC that forced more people into the Standby line. So if there really were that many people using GAC to skip Standby and go directly into the FP line then shouldn't the Standby line go up when they can't do that anymore?

 

[BrerJon]

Nope, not available. Ok, let me try just adding one. That works. Cool. Now let me add the other two. Guess what the time slot given for them is 6-7pm. A full 5 hours after me?! I figure I'll just book that and then change times for them. Easy, right? No, now the entire app has locked up and won't let me book them. And by the way I have been clicking through this little experiment to book one ride on the day my window opens for the last 20 minutes!

How long in minutes, do you think you spent booking that? I wonder, if you add the time it takes to book a Fastpass and include it in the queueing time, whether the final total time you spend trying to get on a ride is more than it would have been just going standby in the pre-Fastpass+ days?

Do those who like the system think of time spent on the computer as part of the wait, or do they discount it because they find it enjoyable?

 

[1023]

How long in minutes, do you think you spent booking that? I wonder, if you add the time it takes to book a Fastpass and include it in the queueing time, whether the final total time you spend trying to get on a ride is more than it would have been just going standby in the pre-Fastpass+ days?

Do those who like the system think of time spent on the computer as part of the wait, or do they discount it because they find it enjoyable?

Remember, it's not just the booking time at home on the computer. You also get the super fun kiosk line for your rolling FP+ additions and the time making your way over to that line to see if anything worthwhile is still available. Maybe David Copperfield designed this time saver.

*1023*

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm not as convinced (though I would agree that DAS has played a role). DLR would be an interesting control case for the theory though considering that paper FP has remained the same there during the switch from GAC to DAS. I wonder if anyone has the numbers there to calculate.

According to reliable sources like @WDW1974 at DLR up to 1/3 of the FP lane usage was GAC users, from the same sources GAC at WDW was much less but I don't have numbers.

WDW got the press coverage but the real problem was at DLR but because DLR was much less dependent on FP the impact was not as large overall.

 

[BrerJon]

Remember, it's not just the booking time at home on the computer. You also get the super fun kiosk line for your rolling FP+ additions and the time making your way over to that line to see if anything worthwhile is still available. Maybe David Copperfield designed this time saver.

*1023*

On my last trip a few weeks ago there were three lines you have to go through for each ride - one for the kiosk, one for guest relations to resolve problems, which used to have short line but now is always out of the door because of MagicBand issues and most people have to make at least one visit there per trip, and the third for the actual ride itself.

 

[devoy1701]

Hang on, your logic seems flawed to me. You're saying that Standby times went down when GAC was eliminated. But by eliminating GAC that forced more people into the Standby line. So if there really were that many people using GAC to skip Standby and go directly into the FP line then shouldn't the Standby line go up when they can't do that anymore?

I think the piece you're missing is that with the old GAC, these guests most likely had a higher attraction capacity in their day than the average guest. I'm not sure if I'm portraying that correctly....but being able to skip all Stand-by lines and move right to the FP lines for an unlimited amount of attractions and re-rides meant they could ride more attractions in a day, which in turn means more people passing through the queue. Removing the GAC (and the abusers) put them on a more level playing field. Decreasing their ride capacity could in theory shorten wait times if there were really that many abusers and repeat riders using GAC.

I'm 100% speculating on this btw.

 

[BroganMc]

This is likely the root cause. Now that FP+ has been live for some time and more and more people have access to it (Cast Members now have a 60 day window to book as well as long as they're staying on property which adds an additional 66k+ people to the FastPass+ pre-booking mix that were not a part of it prior to two days ago) there is more of a push to get FastPass early. People who weren't familiar with what attractions they needed it for before are now wiser and booking them further and further out. This leaves very little inventory for day-of guests or last-minute changes.

I thought CMs were being given a 7 day booking window, not 60 days. That would put them ahead of AP holders.

The system is supposed to be 60 days for onsite guests with tickets. 30 days for AP holders. 7 days for CMs and their guests. Same day for offsite guests with tickets in the park at kiosks.

One thing I have noticed and think is very wrong is allowing onsite guests to book FP+ for their entire stay at 60 days from check-in. That's given guests with longer stays an advantage over guests with shorter stays. One of the tips for booking FP+ is to look at things toward the end of your stay first. That's to capitalize on this advantage.

 

[pax_65]

There are those here that have had bad experiences with the system, and there are those that hate the system just to hate it. I feel bad for anyone who truly had issues.

I just want to make a point. I've taken 3 trips with FP+, and had issues on all of them. On one trip my band wouldn't open my room, on another trip 1 member of our party couldn't get FPs for anything so we spent hours trying to resolve it (and never really could). These issues were frustrating and wasted a lot of time on our vacations.

That said, if the system was working perfectly I'd still hate it because of how it changes my Disney experience. I've gone from being relaxed, waking up and doing whatever I wanted to do each day (and still getting to do my favorite attractions at least twice a day with minimum wait) to being stressed, planning every minute of every day of my vacation, and only getting to do the headliners once.

So it's not just the issues I have a problem with. I have a fundamental problem with the whole thing.

 

[BrerJon]

I thought CMs were being given a 7 day booking window, not 60 days. That would put them ahead of AP holders.

It's 60 days for CMs who have booked resort rooms, 7 days for regular usage.

 

[natatomic]

Hang on, your logic seems flawed to me. You're saying that Standby times went down when GAC was eliminated. But by eliminating GAC that forced more people into the Standby line. So if there really were that many people using GAC to skip Standby and go directly into the FP line then shouldn't the Standby line go up when they can't do that anymore?

Let's say a family of 6 uses abuses GAC to ride Expedition Everest, say, 5 times in an hour (no, not every GAC family did this, but we all know abuse was rampant to reride all the popular attractions). That family took up 30 seats (nearly an entire train) on the ride in the course of an hour even though they are only 6 people. Now let's say with a DAS card, they get their return time for EE, then hop into the SB line (let's say...45 minutes). By the time they are out of the SB and then return with their DAS through the FP line, they only rode twice in that hour, i.e. they took up 12 seats. So maybe, yes, now they are physically in the SB line, but truthfully it doesn't matter which line they go through, just how many spots of the hourly/daily capacity they take up.

Basically, if people can't marathon a ride with little to no wait over and over again, then they are riding fewer times and taking up less seats, which equals less wait time for everyone.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Let's say a family of 6 uses abuses GAC to ride Expedition Everest, say, 5 times in an hour (no, not every GAC family did this, but we all know abuse was rampant to reride all the popular attractions). That family took up 30 seats (nearly an entire train) on the ride in the course of an hour even though they are only 6 people. Now let's say with a DAS card, they get their return time for EE, then hop into the SB line (let's say...45 minutes). By the time they are out of the SB and then return with their DAS through the FP line, they only rode twice in that hour, i.e. they took up 12 seats. So maybe, yes, now they are physically in the SB line, but truthfully it doesn't matter which line they go through, just how many spots of the hourly/daily capacity they take up.

Basically, if people can't marathon a ride with little to no wait over and over again, then they are riding fewer times and taking up less seats, which equals less wait time for everyone.

We will be using the DAS card for my brother in January. For me, the biggest change I would like to see is to allow for the selections to be made on a phone or kiosk, like Fastpass+. While I think the 10 minute threshold is a bit extreme, if the access is put on a mobile device that makes it nearly irrelevant. It's still a reasonable accommodation, just not as "convenient" as GAC.

 

[natatomic]

We will be using the DAS card for my brother in January. For me, the biggest change I would like to see is to allow for the selections to be made on a phone or kiosk, like Fastpass+. While I think the 10 minute threshold is a bit extreme, if the access is put on a mobile device that makes it nearly irrelevant. It's still a reasonable accommodation, just not as "convenient" as GAC.

Yeah, I have no idea why they haven't done that yet. It seems so obvious to everyone else. My only guess is that the system is buggy and horrible enough as it is...maybe once they get all the kinks worked out, they'll add it in there.

On the other hand, maybe they wouldn't add it to the system if DL doesn't have that same convenience. Given the lawsuit started in CA, those people out there might be ed that it's "more accommodating" in WDW than there. Just a thought.

 

[BroganMc]

Let's say a family of 6 uses abuses GAC to ride Expedition Everest, say, 5 times in an hour (no, not every GAC family did this, but we all know abuse was rampant to reride all the popular attractions). That family took up 30 seats (nearly an entire train) on the ride in the course of an hour even though they are only 6 people. Now let's say with a DAS card, they get their return time for EE, then hop into the SB line (let's say...45 minutes). By the time they are out of the SB and then return with their DAS through the FP line, they only rode twice in that hour, i.e. they took up 12 seats. So maybe, yes, now they are physically in the SB line, but truthfully it doesn't matter which line they go through, just how many spots of the hourly/daily capacity they take up.

Basically, if people can't marathon a ride with little to no wait over and over again, then they are riding fewer times and taking up less seats, which equals less wait time for everyone.

Ok here's where my experience being a GAC/DAS user is limited. I cannot do any rollercoaster so have never been in a line for one. Where I did encounter other GAC users were places like TSMM. They sent GAC users up the same ramp to wait for the two revolving vehicles whether you could transfer or not. I don't remember ever seeing a GAC user get sent up the steps. I'm seeing the same sort of people in that line, we just got there with DAS, FP+ or Standby. I thought my wait times would go down there when it switched to DAS. It did for the first week then went back up to the normal 15-20 mins. What I have noticed is that I'm working a lot harder to use my DAS. I wear my wheelchair battery out more going back and forth to the same ride. I do wish I could get an active Return Time with my phone. Would make my life a lot easier.

Now when I switched to DAS I was told to use it in tandem with my FP+. It was to augment my selections, not replace them. And when I visited last NYE that's exactly how it worked for me. I used 3 FP+ and 1 DAS Return Time a day. There was another day when my DAS return time replaced my FP+ for TSMM. That was due to Brown Derby taking an extra 2 hours to seat and serve me. I had missed my FP+ window for TSMM while eating dessert. So I redeemed my Return Time after that (a half hour into my Star Tours FP+ window).

When the FP+ availability problem ocurred on my last trip, I found myself using my DAS more. I just could not get FP+ slots suitable to my abilities that day. Now as much as I appreciate having a DAS to help me, I also realize the more FP+ availability problems others experience the more incentive there is to obtain a DAS. Remember Disney still cannot ask for proof. Anyone can tell a good story to qualify for this. And with DS you can obtain a FP for an attraction that's been booked months ago and use your FP+ on the ones that never needed a FP+ to begin with.

It is in the best interests of the disabled for FP+ to work properly.

 

[BroganMc]

Yeah, I have no idea why they haven't done that yet. It seems so obvious to everyone else. My only guess is that the system is buggy and horrible enough as it is...maybe once they get all the kinks worked out, they'll add it in there.

On the other hand, maybe they wouldn't add it to the system if DL doesn't have that same convenience. Given the lawsuit started in CA, those people out there might be ed that it's "more accommodating" in WDW than there. Just a thought.

It could also be because it makes DAS way too easy and tempting to the abusers. As it stands now going through the hassle of (A) visiting Guest Relations to get a new card every trip, (B) going to the attraction to ask for a handwritten return time, then (C) coming back later, cumulates in making it all seem too much hard work for your average cheater. The fact that it unfortunately creates a burden for those who most need the help is an unintended consequence.

You can get a Return Time at Guest Relations to start your day. Well for most things except TSMM.

 

[BroganMc]

It's 60 days for CMs who have booked resort rooms, 7 days for regular usage.

CMs are resort guests if they book a room. That shouldn't even be considered in the same sentence, surely.

 

[G00fyDad]

I just want to make a point. I've taken 3 trips with FP+, and had issues on all of them. On one trip my band wouldn't open my room, on another trip 1 member of our party couldn't get FPs for anything so we spent hours trying to resolve it (and never really could). These issues were frustrating and wasted a lot of time on our vacations.

That said, if the system was working perfectly I'd still hate it because of how it changes my Disney experience. I've gone from being relaxed, waking up and doing whatever I wanted to do each day (and still getting to do my favorite attractions at least twice a day with minimum wait) to being stressed, planning every minute of every day of my vacation, and only getting to do the headliners once.

So it's not just the issues I have a problem with. I have a fundamental problem with the whole thing.

Then you would fall into the "There are those here that have had bad experiences with the system" category.

 

[natatomic]

Ok here's where my experience being a GAC/DAS user is limited. I cannot do any rollercoaster so have never been in a line for one. Where I did encounter other GAC users were places like TSMM. They sent GAC users up the same ramp to wait for the two revolving vehicles whether you could transfer or not. I don't remember ever seeing a GAC user get sent up the steps. I'm seeing the same sort of people in that line, we just got there with DAS, FP+ or Standby. I thought my wait times would go down there when it switched to DAS. It did for the first week then went back up to the normal 15-20 mins. What I have noticed is that I'm working a lot harder to use my DAS. I wear my wheelchair battery out more going back and forth to the same ride. I do wish I could get an active Return Time with my phone. Would make my life a lot easier.

Now when I switched to DAS I was told to use it in tandem with my FP+. It was to augment my selections, not replace them. And when I visited last NYE that's exactly how it worked for me. I used 3 FP+ and 1 DAS Return Time a day. There was another day when my DAS return time replaced my FP+ for TSMM. That was due to Brown Derby taking an extra 2 hours to seat and serve me. I had missed my FP+ window for TSMM while eating dessert. So I redeemed my Return Time after that (a half hour into my Star Tours FP+ window).

When the FP+ availability problem ocurred on my last trip, I found myself using my DAS more. I just could not get FP+ slots suitable to my abilities that day. Now as much as I appreciate having a DAS to help me, I also realize the more FP+ availability problems others experience the more incentive there is to obtain a DAS. Remember Disney still cannot ask for proof. Anyone can tell a good story to qualify for this. And with DS you can obtain a FP for an attraction that's been booked months ago and use your FP+ on the ones that never needed a FP+ to begin with.

It is in the best interests of the disabled for FP+ to work properly.

Anyway, I digress. I would say people who used GACs with your condition or something similar were in the minority of GAC users. Most GACs were/appeared to be able bodied and didn't require needed a particular ride vehicle or diversion from stairs. Whether they were autistic, had MS, claustrophobia, or where just faking it, those people just got to go through the FP line (though I THINK the only exception was that they would all be sent to the wheelchair line on TSMM - I could be wrong here!) So for those who got to go through FP who also did NOT need special ride vehicles, it was basically an unlimited, instant FP. Even GAC users who had someone in the party who was wheelchair bound would often leave them in a shop or in some shade and then use their card over and over again without them. Please don't misunderstand me, this was not how all GAC users acted, but it definitely is how all GAC abusers acted.

So with the changes to DAS now a year or so old, I asked a Guest Relations CM how it was working, if it had curbed down abuse, since I'm no longer in attractions and never got to see it first hand. He said that it helped a lot at first when they were more strict with it, but they were now back to handing them out like candy because the managers tell them to since "it's not giving them what they want." That is, if they're fakers, it's not giving them that much of an advantage. Well, it is these days if you just want it for hard-to-FP rides like 7DMT and A&E M&G. But that may very well explain why your line at TSMM is back to it's old length.

 

[prberk]

If it is truly broken right now then I hope they get it fixed soon. If they cannot get it fixed then it should be done away with. I will hate to see a system like this leave, but if it is broken now (Yes, it worked flawlessly last October) then it should be re-evaluated and removed if the problems cannot be fixed. This may be someone attempting to save their career. No one wants to be known as the man/woman that ushered in a tech system that failed so famously. There are those here that have had bad experiences with the system, and there are those that hate the system just to hate it. I feel bad for anyone who truly had issues.

Good reply. I applaud you for that. I know that you have had a good experience with the system, but many of the scenarios above are rediculous, especially for folks expected to drop thousands of dollars on a vacation. I feel for the guy above who could not get fast-passes for his family members at the same time.

I personally know that I am less interested in going to WDW now, and I especially don't look forward to being with friends or family again as the resident Disney specialist (as is usually my role) when and if we might need to make a change to guaranteed dinner reservations, or when I have to explain to them why we can't do the advertised new restaurant because we only found out this week that we all have approved vacation to go next month (since it is shorter than 60 days).
They won't understand how the Disney that was so friendly and helpful before will not be able to change or cancel their dinner reservations if they are not feeling well or change their minds that day, without charging their credit card. And they certainly won't understand not being able to get the much-advertised fast-pass for a ride on the trip they just booked for next month.

I just think that Disney wonks took a good idea and took it too far, insisting that everyone use it. It was a nice perk before, and it was natural and appropriate that Disney's biggest fans used the system more than others. That did not make them "super-users" (as others have said above) in some insidious fashion. It simply made them repeat customers overall. If you know where everything in your local grocery store is, and therefore can get in and out more efficiently and more often than the out-of-town visitor who stops in and has to orient himself to find the item(s) he came for, does that make you a "super-user" that should be held back and streamlined in order to make it fair for the visitor and take away your "insider" advantage? That is what a lot of this seems like to me. It may streamline things some, but it has unintended consequences for the repeat customers and some of the best customers who love Disney. It does not take an MBA to realize that repeat customers are the bread and butter of a business model. Making them feel unimportant or even discouraged is a mistake. "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush" is a famous saying for a reason.

 

[prberk]

Then you would fall into the "There are those here that have had bad experiences with the system" category.

And I hope you realize that those matter. Because if the system is "good for some and bad for others" and appears to be no net gain, then WDC has a real problem. The "bad for others" category will discourage repeat customers, which takes away future revenue and seriously encroaches upon Disney's "excellent customer service" reputation. Negative word-of-mouth usually goes a lot further than a positive experience (especially for someone like Disney, from whom excellence is the earlier reputation).

So, over the long term, there is a risk to the engine that drives more revenue: the repeat guest.

In that case it seems like $2 billion spent on arranging the deck chairs, instead of on actually fresh experiences.