Fastpass + : The Real Purpose?

[marni1971]

Is it time for popcorn yet?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Is it time for popcorn yet?

Depends on what’s playing?

Is it “dances with wolves”? (Naked gun joke)

 

[lentesta]

[citation needed]

Please prove that they are actually using the long-range RFID for crowd modelling. Also even if they were it wouldn't provide the right information to make them want to widen walkways.

I can't find a single document that says "we're using long-range RFID for crowd modeling". However, Disney Research has published around crowd modeling, and Disney Enterprises has patented around RFID tracking. I suppose we could assume that nobody in the Disney organization has put these two ideas together.

I assume that they're doing crowd modeling with MagicBand RFID data. I don't think they used it to widen walkways - that seems like overkill.

References, in case anyone is interested:

Disney's website says they use long-range RFID:
MagicBands can also be read by long-range readers located at Walt Disney World Resort used to deliver personalized experiences, as well as provide information that helps us improve the overall experience in our parks.

Disney Research gathered these data with cameras (in a "park"). It focuses on how crowds can avoid barriers and obstacles:
Path Patterns: Analyzing and Comparing Real and Simulated Crowds, from Disney Research (2016)

Hantao Zhao at Rutgers and Disney Research Zurich is actively working on crowd simulations.

Disney's patents indicate they're actively working on using RFID for crowd modeling:

Systems and Methods for Following Distinguishing Members Using Tags in Combination with a Localizing Device (US Patient application)
For example, wireless tag 103 may be included in a wearable nametag, such as a clip-on name tag or a nametag worn on a lanyard, or wireless tag 103 may be included in a bracelet, wristband, handheld device, etc. Wireless tag 103 may be an active wireless tag, a battery-assisted passive wireless tag, or a passive wireless tag. In some implementations, wireless tag 103 may be a radio frequency identification (RFID) tag, an ultra high frequency (UHF) RFID tag, or a short distance radio transmitter. Short distance radio transmissions may operate in the unlicensed industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) band at 2.4-2.485 GHz using a spread spectrum, frequency hopping, full-duplex signal at a nominal rate of 1600 hops/sec. In some implementations, wireless tag 103 may include a short range radio frequency transmitter, such as a BLUETOOTH.RTM. (BT) transmitter. BLUETOOTH.RTM. is a registered trademark owned by Bluetooth SIG, Inc. Wireless tag 103 may include a unique tag identification (ID) that may be transmitted to or read by wireless tag reader 105. In other implementations, wireless tag 103 may be an optical tag having unique patterns, which can be read or captured using wireless tag reader 105, such as an infrared camera, and be used to uniquely identify individual 101

SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR PROXIMITY-BASED PERSONALIZED CONTENT RECOMMENDATIONS (US Patent application):
Still other methods of determining proximity can involve cameras or sensors associated with user devices that can be leveraged to determine the presence of two or more users at a location, as well as determining users on a given network or network subnet, determining users accessing a particular WiFi router, and/or determining users via personal identifiers, such as RFIDs and Bluetooth IDs.

This one is related, but doesn't mention RFID specifically.
Systems and Methods for Detecting Free-Standing Groups of Individuals (US Patent application)

 

[lentesta]

The fact that they still hand visitors the little plastic card randomly in a queue to hand off to the final cast member before you board the ride indicates that they don't have the system you are envisioning. If they had that system they wouldn't need to track a visitor in a line with the plastic card they could just use the reader at the beginning of the queue and the one at the end to track times.

I believe WDW stopped using Flik cards by January of this year. Tracking waits in line is by MagicBands now.

 

[Jon81uk]

I can't find a single document that says "we're using long-range RFID for crowd modeling". However, Disney Research has published around crowd modeling, and Disney Enterprises has patented around RFID tracking. I suppose we could assume that nobody in the Disney organization has put these two ideas together.

I assume that they're doing crowd modeling with MagicBand RFID data. I don't think they used it to widen walkways - that seems like overkill.

References, in case anyone is interested:

Disney's website says they use long-range RFID:
MagicBands can also be read by long-range readers located at Walt Disney World Resort used to deliver personalized experiences, as well as provide information that helps us improve the overall experience in our parks.

Disney Research gathered these data with cameras (in a "park"). It focuses on how crowds can avoid barriers and obstacles:
Path Patterns: Analyzing and Comparing Real and Simulated Crowds, from Disney Research (2016)

Hantao Zhao at Rutgers and Disney Research Zurich is actively working on crowd simulations.

Disney's patents indicate they're actively working on using RFID for crowd modeling:

Systems and Methods for Following Distinguishing Members Using Tags in Combination with a Localizing Device (US Patient application)
For example, wireless tag 103 may be included in a wearable nametag, such as a clip-on name tag or a nametag worn on a lanyard, or wireless tag 103 may be included in a bracelet, wristband, handheld device, etc. Wireless tag 103 may be an active wireless tag, a battery-assisted passive wireless tag, or a passive wireless tag. In some implementations, wireless tag 103 may be a radio frequency identification (RFID) tag, an ultra high frequency (UHF) RFID tag, or a short distance radio transmitter. Short distance radio transmissions may operate in the unlicensed industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) band at 2.4-2.485 GHz using a spread spectrum, frequency hopping, full-duplex signal at a nominal rate of 1600 hops/sec. In some implementations, wireless tag 103 may include a short range radio frequency transmitter, such as a BLUETOOTH.RTM. (BT) transmitter. BLUETOOTH.RTM. is a registered trademark owned by Bluetooth SIG, Inc. Wireless tag 103 may include a unique tag identification (ID) that may be transmitted to or read by wireless tag reader 105. In other implementations, wireless tag 103 may be an optical tag having unique patterns, which can be read or captured using wireless tag reader 105, such as an infrared camera, and be used to uniquely identify individual 101

SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR PROXIMITY-BASED PERSONALIZED CONTENT RECOMMENDATIONS (US Patent application):
Still other methods of determining proximity can involve cameras or sensors associated with user devices that can be leveraged to determine the presence of two or more users at a location, as well as determining users on a given network or network subnet, determining users accessing a particular WiFi router, and/or determining users via personal identifiers, such as RFIDs and Bluetooth IDs.

This one is related, but doesn't mention RFID specifically.
Systems and Methods for Detecting Free-Standing Groups of Individuals (US Patent application)

Thank you.
It often felt-like an urban legend that Disney had actually installed a significant number of RFID readers in order to track around the whole park.

I did now about the content provision (I've seen my name on the RocknRoller coaster queue screens and Space Mountain exit).
Also I did think they were trying to replace the Flik cards with MagicBand RFID.
But I've always thought the idea that there was RFID readers at a significant number of points to actually "track" guests round most of the park (as in to work out which walkways to widen). I've assumed they might know which FastPass you redeemed and then which ride you did Standby queue for.

Live crowd re-direction I assumed was done via CCTV (ie at fireworks time they watch and radio to people on the ground what the issues are). Its interesting to know they are also using cameras to long-term plan this too.

 

[CAV]

Thank you.
It often felt-like an urban legend that Disney had actually installed a significant number of RFID readers in order to track around the whole park.

I did now about the content provision (I've seen my name on the RocknRoller coaster queue screens and Space Mountain exit).
Also I did think they were trying to replace the Flik cards with MagicBand RFID.
But I've always thought the idea that there was RFID readers at a significant number of points to actually "track" guests round most of the park (as in to work out which walkways to widen). I've assumed they might know which FastPass you redeemed and then which ride you did Standby queue for.

Live crowd re-direction I assumed was done via CCTV (ie at fireworks time they watch and radio to people on the ground what the issues are). Its interesting to know they are also using cameras to long-term plan this too.

Can't they use it to track those people who suddenly stop in front of you and nearly knock you to the ground? Perhaps deleting their fps as punishment?

 

[thomas998]

I believe WDW stopped using Flik cards by January of this year. Tracking waits in line is by MagicBands now.

I hope they have done this, if so it should mean they can now provide real time accurate wait times. Although if they really are trying to manipulate the guests as some have claimed, wouldn't they be inclined to lie about the wait times as a way to further manipulate people to go to one ride over another based on perceived wait times?

 

[Willmark]

I work with analytics all day. They absolutely matter. However, they will never replace the product itself. You can't keep squeezing without the constant expansion and a great product.

Disney overpaid for the platform and didn't expand enough for about 15 years. They are big enough to afford overpayment and have realized they need to expand/improve the product. That's why you're seeing an overhaul of 2 parks and additional expansion in the other 2.

Add to that (and some people are going to get up in arms)... not all guests are created equal. Sorry but that’s reality.

Disney really wants to know where that family of four that only stays at Deluxes for ten days on property, with no car rental every year to two is at all times. The family of four who stays off property for five days? Important but not as important.

Disney REALLY wants to know data on the top three quartiles with the top quartile being the one they want the most data on.

I don’t work in analytics, but I do work in IT and one of the groups I support is data analytics.

 

[drizgirl]

I hope they have done this, if so it should mean they can now provide real time accurate wait times. Although if they really are trying to manipulate the guests as some have claimed, wouldn't they be inclined to lie about the wait times as a way to further manipulate people to go to one ride over another based on perceived wait times?

I'd be shocked if they didn't continue to inflate the wait times to manipulate guests (like raising the time closer to closing).

I just imagine if they're using real times garnered from magic band info, they're just manipulating from a more accurate starting point.

 

[Hank Hill]

Maybe. But you're good a running a theme park--or simply have eyes--you don't need to invest billions in a data collection system to realize that certain walkways need to be widened, certain restaurants and attractions get crowded, or that guests are going to need transportation from their hotels to the parks.

The world is full of narcissistic hubris from wannabe pantomaths. Just because a business makes money, does not mean they are run well. A good business will look to see if they could have made more if the business was being run correctly and act on that.

It has been known for decades that widening roads simply does not alleviate traffic, so just looking where it is crowded and widening the path is not something you can just do and expect results. Its not too long ago the Dumbo was the attraction people ran to and had to get on first thing or developed strategies to ride. Now, most people seem to hate or are indifferent to it. Looking at the underlying issues with real data can tell a lot more than the "eye test" ever could. A person "good at running a theme park" would know how to use the data and make sound decisions, not make snap decisions based on their feelings.

A lot of the Disney mystique for some rides and restaurants is based on how hard it is to do.. Take that away, and it is no longer a need for many. Letting people move freely by having room isn't always good crowd control. Ever try walking around walmart? There is no room down isles, it's not for guests, it is for the business. Overall Disney is using data for the business purposes first, guest experience only as need be. It was not the most important aspect of implementing this system.

 

[lentesta]

I hope they have done this, if so it should mean they can now provide real time accurate wait times. Although if they really are trying to manipulate the guests as some have claimed, wouldn't they be inclined to lie about the wait times as a way to further manipulate people to go to one ride over another based on perceived wait times?

I'm pretty sure all theme parks do this at one point or another, as a way to distribute guests through the park.

Here's Space Mountain on New Year's Eve 2014 as an example. The blue line is the posted wait shown to guests in MDE. The red line was the internal "actual wait" that used to be in the MDE data feed. (So all the data come from Disney.)

The actual wait for Space Mountain at 10 a.m. was around 65 minutes. The posted wait was 250. That 250 was a signal for people to go to other, less crowded parts of the park.

 

[WheelsUpRN]

This thread is really interesting. I’ve learned a lot about this topic that I never knew before.

So, let me ask you this. Given that WDW seems willing to do just about anything to generate additional revenue (that’s not an insult, what company doesn’t do that?), does anyone think WDW will ever got to a system more like Universal’s express pass, where guests simply pay in advance for multiple “fast passes” and then use them as they see fit? Or is WDW simply too crowded for a system like that to ever actually work? Or is there some other reason why this wouldn’t work that I’m not thinking of?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

I'm not sure they would also risk losing their marketing of onsite perks such as Fastpass+. Regardless, I sure hope not.

I am by no means an expert on Universal.... But I went to Universal (in mid-July mind you) at early park opening and spent 25 minutes or more on EVERY express pass line. During the same week even mid afternoon, I never waited more than 15 minutes for a Fastpass line. at WDW. I would LOVE to see them open up the tiers and use FP distribution as a tool rather than limiting a guest's ability to FP the actual attractions they want. A girl can dream.

 

[Sundown]

Had an interesting chat recently. Not sure where to stick it so I’ll mention it here.

Fastpass+ may not be around forever, nor may be automatic for every or every new attraction. There won’t be a direct replacement.

Food for thought.

@marni1971 Martin, I hope you don't mind me sharing your above post here in this Fastpass+ discussion. If so, I'll certainly remove it. (Originally posted in this thread https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/no-benefit-for-resort-guests-on-rise-of-the-resistance.963043/ )

From the helpful posts here explaining the real motive of Fastpass+, I've certainly learned so much. But it was a supposedly a billion dollar investment, right? Would Disney abandon it completely? Fine tune it? Really an interesting topic to me.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

@marni1971 Martin, I hope you don't mind me sharing your above post here in this Fastpass+ discussion. If so, I'll certainly remove it. (Originally posted in this thread https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/no-benefit-for-resort-guests-on-rise-of-the-resistance.963043/ )

From the helpful posts here explaining the real motive of Fastpass+, I've certainly learned so much. But it was a supposedly a billion dollar investment, right? Would Disney abandon it completely? Fine tune it? Really an interesting topic to me.

The billion dollar investment was about crowd tracking and prediction for monetization...along with shrinking operational costs/ineffficienciesz

It was also an excuse on Wall Street to pay for a massive computer system and WiFi upgrade that the property desperately needed but never could sell to shareholders as a sunk cost.

Provide fast passes was such a small part of it. Now it’s morphed into an ugly ride rationing system that I’m thinking actually reduces the out of pocket spending and ratings.

It was designed to increase out of pocket spending...so that means it shouldn’t be set in stone.

 

[Disney4family]

Im almost certain they have an algorithm that will predict with high certainty how many times the toilet will flush in any given day, just based on the info they have.

that would be a big, fat ZERO in most ladies' rooms...

 

[Disney4family]

Aside from the Tiki Room and People Mover are there actually any ride you don't have to wait an ungodly long time to ride?

unfortunately, even the People Mover isn't safe from lines anymore...

 

[Disney4family]

Sadly as you just pointed out, aside from the Disney Zoo and Epcot, there really isn't anything worth a flip at MK that you can just walk on. I know some people love the carousel of progress, but for my family I think we would all rather go to the dentist than sit through it another time, last time we did watch it the animatronics were in a desperate need of TLC, was painful to watch.

at least the dentist can give you nitrous oxide

 

[Sundown]

This is really a question with no true answer, I'd suppose. But if FastPass+ was removed in its entirety from the parks, what could average wait times for rides reasonably be? I guess for the purpose of this question, the latest rides wouldn't be included (?)

 

[The_Jobu]

I'm pretty sure all theme parks do this at one point or another, as a way to distribute guests through the park.

Here's Space Mountain on New Year's Eve 2014 as an example. The blue line is the posted wait shown to guests in MDE. The red line was the internal "actual wait" that used to be in the MDE data feed. (So all the data come from Disney.)

The actual wait for Space Mountain at 10 a.m. was around 65 minutes. The posted wait was 250. That 250 was a signal for people to go to other, less crowded parts of the park.

View attachment 396182

Can anyone see the actual times live or is it a super secret shhhh thing?

 

[thomas998]

This is really a question with no true answer, I'd suppose. But if FastPass+ was removed in its entirety from the parks, what could average wait times for rides reasonably be? I guess for the purpose of this question, the latest rides wouldn't be included (?)

Probably not much different from the current standby lines. Remember the standby lines are so slow now because of all the fastpass people that get shuffled in front of standby people. Not to mention the aversion to long waits that some people have would probably continually results in lots of people skipping rides as the wait times increased keeping them at constant levels longer than their shortest times now but probably no longer than the longest times they see now.