Fastpass + : The Real Purpose?

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That's not how millions or billions get approved in a publicly traded company...If I walked into a capital expenditures meeting with a request over $1000 and the reason of "Well...I just know it", they would laugh me out of the board room and my desk would be cleaned off before I got back to it.

Everything needs to have data backing it up.

Agree.

Any capex has to show:
1. How quickly the upfront will be rcouped
2. How much profit will be gained in perpetuity

The California public employees pension fund cares not about “the guest experience”

As Michael corleone says: “it’s strictly business”

 

[Bender123]

Agree.

Any capex has to show:
1. How quickly the upfront will be rcouped
2. How much profit will be gained in perpetuity

The California public employees pension fund cares not about “the guest experience”

As Michael corleone says: “it’s strickly business”

This is one of things that people who have done these types of things really know...The benefit of FP+, magicbands and the data isn't that the data exists. The value is that they have real world information that is both predictive and in real time to show where their CapEx will have the greatest impact.

When you want to widen a pathway, you can either look at it or actually track it. We know what patterns people are taking on their way around the park, because we can see every single ride and food purchase they made. We can literally count them between certain times, decide they pathway is beyond our internal acceptable tolerances (which you can track) and then build an upgraded path that fits our tracked patterns. You can also use this data to steer people off the pattern...you have too many people doing the SM followed by Buzz? Make fewer FP available to people who have one to go on the other, but make more HM passes available if its light on people selecting early. You now reduced your traffic using data.

There is a lot of funky stuff and pattern altering you can do with this system...think social engineering at the population level. Basically, you drive the crowd to any point, away from any point or split the crowd to multiple points based solely on the "reward" factor of "scoring that 60 day FP for a favorite ride".

 

[bUU]

So now you’re going to debate something that’s been tossed around for 20 years?

I've called out such nonsense whenever it has been posted over those 20 years. What do you think has changed such that I would stop doing so?

I’d suggest you spend more time picking out wicker for the new palace or something?...no need for another needless battle.

We can't pick out the wicker for another 90+ days. And a friend insisted on delivering to me a roll of packaging paper, so until he arrives I can't even pack another box. I'm all yours until he arrives.

 

[NormC]

The bands have the 2nd radio in them that does position tracking. They know where you are with in a park nearly all times. They can look at the crowds and the crow flows on a computer and model how is moving where and make adjustments. The MK walkway improvements and probably even the EPCOT entrance improvements may have easily been designed around what the crowd flow was telling them.

The bands only have one radio in them. It is a Class II permissive BT LE device operating at a lower power of 1.2mW. (Class II max is 2.5mW which gives a max range of 10 meters. The MB is less than that.) The other devices are simple passive RFID tags that work on touch points. The only location determination they can make is based on your "breadcrumb" trail as you use it and pass occasional readers.

 

[Bender123]

The bands only have one radio in them. It is a Class II permissive BT LE device operating at a lower power of 1.2mW. (Class II max is 2.5mW which gives a max range of 10 meters. The MB is less than that.) The other devices are simple passive RFID tags that work on touch points. The only location determination they can make is based on your "breadcrumb" trail as you use it and pass occasional readers.

32 feet...I don't think you realize exactly how useful this can be in tracking motion. Depending on how much of a mesh Disney has with their receivers, you can pinpoint a person with pretty high accuracy. The RFID is more than capable of verifying precise location.

 

[Shouldigo12]

It is a fundamental question, just like the question about paying an average of $150 to sit in a hard, narrow uncomfortable seat to watch a NFL game for a few hours. It's a fundamental question because it is a differentiator: People who answer 'no' should move on and find something else to concern themselves with rather than whining about how expensive it is to watch a football game.

As much as I love DW, I have to disagree with this. When you're at a theme park, time is money. A lot of people take how many rides they were able to do into account when deciding if the ticket price was worth it. At a sports game, while you might be disappointed if your team doesn't win, you don't have the same concern. You know you'll get to see the game no matter what. At a theme park, you don't have the same guarantee you'll get to do any rides. That's why large crowds and artificially inflated lines are an issue. A lot of people at a sports game doesn't stop you from getting what you paid for. A lot of people at a theme park can.

 

[NormC]

32 feet...I don't think you realize exactly how useful this can be in tracking motion. Depending on how much of a mesh Disney has with their receivers, you can pinpoint a person with pretty high accuracy. The RFID is more than capable of verifying precise location.

I realize full well how it can be used. The RFID part is touch only. The BT radio won't get the full 32 feet routinely because of Disney's design choice to go with a Class II permissive device at half the power. They can triangulate and get an idea where someone was but it is not done in real time. The BT radio is also of the call and answer type. It is not broadcasting all the time. Disney did this to save the battery.

 

[Voxel]

I realize full well how it can be used. The RFID part is touch only. The BT radio won't get the full 32 feet routinely because of Disney's design choice to go with a Class II permissive device at half the power. They can triangulate and get an idea where someone was but it is not done in real time. The BT radio is also of the call and answer type. It is not broadcasting all the time. Disney did this to save the battery.

I'm curious to where you got your 32ft number from. Other documentation from products using this chip *Nordic NRF24LE1* seem to suggest a range of 300ft outdoors. While I do agree they don't have Pinpoint at real-time they probably can track flow quiet easily.

Side note, I would assume that many of the analysis aren't done realtime but rather thrown in to a model to see if crowd patterns match expectation, what variations are there, is there an area that's popular, is the store busy due to a new item. Very similar to what almost every Store that offers wifi does with it's customers without a fancy band.

 

[Bender123]

I realize full well how it can be used. The RFID part is touch only. The BT radio won't get the full 32 feet routinely because of Disney's design choice to go with a Class II permissive device at half the power. They can triangulate and get an idea where someone was but it is not done in real time. The BT radio is also of the call and answer type. It is not broadcasting all the time. Disney did this to save the battery.

I figured. That's why Im fairly interested in how many "receivers" are around and what type of mesh coverage they have built out. I know they have them within certain rides, but I would also guess they have deployed them in other public areas.

 

[Bender123]

I'm curious to where you got your 32ft number from. Other documentation from products using this this chip *Nordic NRF24LE1* seem to suggest a range of 300ft outdoors. While I do agree they don't have Pinpoint at real-time they probably can track flow quiet easily.

Side note, I would assume that many of the analysis aren't done realtime but rather thrown in to a model to see if crowd patterns match expectation, what variations are there, is there an area that's popular, is the store busy due to a new item. Very similar to what almost every Store that offers wifi does with it's customers without a fancy band.

Missed this post...

If you have two receivers picking up the same person, its very easy to pinpoint a person based on simple math. Cell phones do this all the time with towers. Tower 1 has you at X signal strength, tower 2 has you at Y...do the math and you can locate a person within about 50 feet.

 

[Voxel]

Missed this post...

If you have two receivers picking up the same person, its very easy to pinpoint a person based on simple math. Cell phones do this all the time with towers. Tower 1 has you at X signal strength, tower 2 has you at Y...do the math and you can locate a person within about 50 feet.

Oh 100%, I was thinking more large scale. To computationally track each person with Pin Point Accuracy all the time results in a large amount of computational effort. Sorry about that lol.

 

[NormC]

FCC regulations for a Class 2 BT radio is 10 meters. Info available directly from Disney's FCC filings. Class 1 would allow a 100 meter distance (328 feet). Disney chose a Class 2 permissive device.

 

[Voxel]

FCC regulations for a Class 2 BT radio is 10 meters. Info available directly from Disney's FCC filings. Class 1 would allow a 100 meter distance (328 feet). Disney chose a Class 2 permissive device.

Ahh I wasn't even thinking about the FCC filings I was too focus on the chipset. Interesting that the chipset isn't being used to it's full potential (if the various documentation I'm bored reading at work is accurate). But it makes sense from a battery stand point.

 

[BoarderPhreak]

Bluetooth can be read up to 10m and RFID from 3-200m (depending on antenna) - NFC is much closer at <10cm. If your smartphone has WiFi enabled, you're talking 46-92m.

No matter how you look at it, you could be tracked quite easily if that was the goal.

 

[thomas998]

Loads. For example, at Animal Kingdom Park, we spend loads of time in the Maharajah Jungle Trek, the Gorilla Falls Exploration Trail, the Discovery Island trails, and the Oasis. We also spend time enjoying the entertainment by the Pandora drummers, the Karibu Sisters, and the acrobats and bands that play in Harambe village. In Epcot, we spend a lot of time visiting each country, enjoying the performances (the band in Canada, the British Invasion, the mime in France, the band in Morocco, the drummers in Japan, the Voices of Liberty, the juggler in Italy, the omhpah band in Germany, the acrobats in China, and the Mariachi band in Mexico), and visiting the exhibits (especially in Morocco, Japan, and Mexico). We also like The Seas, which is a walk-on if you enter through the gift shop. At Magic Kingdom, there's the Tiki Room, like you suggested, as well as Tom Sawyer Island. Carousel of Progress is typically a walk-on when we visit as well.

Sadly as you just pointed out, aside from the Disney Zoo and Epcot, there really isn't anything worth a flip at MK that you can just walk on. I know some people love the carousel of progress, but for my family I think we would all rather go to the dentist than sit through it another time, last time we did watch it the animatronics were in a desperate need of TLC, was painful to watch.

 

[bUU]

Sadly as you just pointed out, aside from the Disney Zoo and Epcot, there really isn't anything worth a flip at MK that you can just walk on.

I pointed out many examples at Epcot and Animal Kingdom specifically because those are the best parks and where we spend practically all our time. There is very little at MK that is "worth a flip", period. We visit MK once every two or three visits, and then only for part of the day. Now, if you disagree - if you think MK is a more worthwhile park among the four - then you should be able to come up with a list for MK as long as I did for Epcot and Animal Kingdom. And if you can't then that's a bigger statement about your limited view than about any kind of limitation on Disney's side. It took me a minute to find a MK fan who listed more MK attractions with little or no wait than I did. Google for it.

I know some people love the carousel of progress, but for my family I think we would all rather go to the dentist than sit through it another time, last time we did watch it the animatronics were in a desperate need of TLC, was painful to watch.

Why do you think that that is not your defect, rather than theirs?

 

[thomas998]

I pointed out many examples at Epcot and Animal Kingdom specifically because those are the best parks and where we spend practically all our time. There is very little at MK that is "worth a flip", period. We visit MK once every two or three visits, and then only for part of the day. Now, if you disagree - if you think MK is a more worthwhile park among the four - then you should be able to come up with a list for MK as long as I did for Epcot and Animal Kingdom. And if you can't then that's a bigger statement about your limited view than about any kind of limitation on Disney's side. It took me a minute to find a MK fan who listed more MK attractions with little or no wait than I did. Google for it.

Why do you think that that is not your defect, rather than theirs?

Well when someone starts by talking about attractions at MK it really serves no purpose for you to start talking about EPCOT and Animal Kingdom... If someone talks about the food at Wendy's why would you think you had a need to talk about Burger King? I suppose you just wanted to throw in your two cents which is probably still more than what your opinion was worth.

 

[bUU]

If someone talks about the food at Wendy's why would you think you had a need to talk about Burger King?

If someone is complaining about the burgers being square at Wendy's, absolutely I would tell them to go to Burger King. The fact that you don't see the logic in that is really quite remarkable.

I suppose you just wanted to throw in your two cents which is probably still more than what your opinion was worth.

I suppose it made you feel good to say something that petty, but let's not lose sight of the main point here: If you don't like something over here then go over there where what you want is.

 

[Jon81uk]

The bands have the 2nd radio in them that does position tracking. They know where you are with in a park nearly all times. They can look at the crowds and the crow flows on a computer and model how is moving where and make adjustments. The MK walkway improvements and probably even the EPCOT entrance improvements may have easily been designed around what the crowd flow was telling them.

[citation needed]

Please prove that they are actually using the long-range RFID for crowd modelling. Also even if they were it wouldn't provide the right information to make them want to widen walkways.

 

[thomas998]

If someone is complaining about the burgers being square at Wendy's, absolutely I would tell them to go to Burger King. The fact that you don't see the logic in that is really quite remarkable.

Clearly you still don't get it, and probably never will.