FastPass+ Most Certainly Not Coming Back As It Was

[Disstevefan1]

Sure! I don't have my paper with me, but I remember enough of the constraints to explain through it.

I treated both Fatspass and Standby as independent systems to reach the final goal. I had multiple goals and situations broken down.

1) Reach maximum hourly capacity. I used an hourly capacity number I found online as the pinpoint number for every situation. I wanted to make sure the coaster was filled at least 90% of the operating day.

Now, for the actual amounts. They depended on what I was trying to do. I had one situation where my objective was solely to keep the fastpass line at the minimum return time of 6 minutes. There is a saturation point here, as although the standby does not have a waiting constraint, the amount of fastpasses can essentially turn it into another standby line.

To keep it down to 6 minutes, I remember the % of line had to be around 5-15% to keep standby wait times within a reasonable wait. I defined "reasonable" as within some percentage above the average of a Monte Carlo simulation.

If you didn't care about standby, you could push Fastpass to 40% of capacity. But that really effected standby line waits.

I hope that mildly helps! It was a fun project!

So in this example, in order to keep the stand by wait times down to a reasonable wait, up to 15 percent of the riders must use Fastpass?

 

[DisneyDodo]

It's a scientific fact that when FP is available, the ride's capacity expands to accommodate the FPers, allowing the SB line to move at the same rate. There's a reason Disney is known for its magic!

 

[lightningtap347]

So in this example, in order to keep the stand by wait times down to a reasonable wait, up to 15 percent of the riders must use Fastpass?

No sorry I don't think I explained it as well as it sounded in my head.

Not must, but up to 15% of the rides hourly capacity can be allocated to fastpass while maintaining a "reasonable" standby wait change while still maintaining the 6 minute max wait of the Fastpass line.

I kept that as a constraint as I was going off of what I had been trained on when I worked there. I also find it important as it keeps the two lines becoming similar.

My model included statistical chance of the ride breaking down, which creates a nearly impossible scenario to keep standby within reason and keep fastpass under 6 minutes. Which is why in real life you find Everest having a 100:1 split in our worst phase.

I did not account for days where there may not be enough guests to reach the saturation point. It's easy to keep both lines manageable and within their constraints when nobody is there, and that wasn't the exercise I was trying to model.

From what I remember, standby wait times would compound past a certain point of FP %. This is another thing that most likely won't happen in real life, as no reasonable person is going to look at the two hour Dumbo wait and get in line. The real life saturation is much lower, as I didn't give the computer a scaled choice of when to decide to not enter the line.

I hope that is better explained. Cheers!

 

[marni1971]

I will repeat. The line may stop for a moment or two here and there with FP but I can promise you that your "continuously moving line" still stopped for a moment here and there without FP. FP had a extremely negligible effect on line movement or wait times.

Fastpass is operationally inefficient.

Quote unquote.

 

[UNCgolf]

Fastpass is operationally inefficient.

Quote unquote.

I've meant to ask you this before when you mentioned it -- were they saying the use of Fastpass artificially lowers the ride's hourly capacity? That would make sense to me, as having to switch back and forth between the lines would cause boarding to take longer than it otherwise would. I wouldn't think it would have a huge effect, though.

I imagine that's not all they meant (if that was even part of it).

 

[marni1971]

I've meant to ask you this before when you mentioned it -- were they saying the use of Fastpass artificially lowers the ride's hourly capacity?

I’d doubt it. So long as there’s a constant flow of guests after the merge point they can keep cramming them into the RV. Depends of course where the merge point is. And if standby moves forwards when it can (like if for a period of time there’s no one in the FP line)

Now if they’re talking about standby backing up and people not moving forward when the line moves since they’re bored being stood in one place e for so long / endless switchbacks that’s another story.

That’s a quote from park operations.

 

[pdude81]

I've meant to ask you this before when you mentioned it -- were they saying the use of Fastpass artificially lowers the ride's hourly capacity? That would make sense to me, as having to switch back and forth between the lines would cause boarding to take longer than it otherwise would. I wouldn't think it would have a huge effect, though.

I imagine that's not all they meant (if that was even part of it).

Normally there are two lines feeding and merging into one so that ultimately it should not lower hourly capacity. Now being unable to predict whether fastpass or some other mechanism could be lowering standby throughput is a different story and that gets scarier with standby pass. I assume he meant more all the data, planning, and personnel required to get exactly the same number of people on the ride you would have anyway. And here I am a fan of Fastpass

 

[pdude81]

I’d doubt it. So long as there’s a constant flow of guests after the merge point they can keep cramming them into the RV. Depends of course where the merge point is. And if standby moves forwards when it can (like if for a period of time there’s no one in the FP line)

Now if they’re talking about standby backing up and people not moving forward when the line moves since they’re bored being stood in one place e for so long / endless switchbacks that’s another story.

That’s a quote from park operations.

Since you've resurfaced in this thread, @marni1971 , can you give us any hints as to whether we might hear something official soon on a Fastpass+ replacement/change? I'm seeing more articles in the past week or two pointing to longer lines and guest frustration than I'm used to.

 

[G00fyDad]

August 2nd

 

[marni1971]

Since you've resurfaced in this thread, @marni1971 , can you give us any hints as to whether we might hear something official soon on a Fastpass+ replacement/change? I'm seeing more articles in the past week or two pointing to longer lines and guest frustration than I'm used to.

I’ll be honest. I’d expected movement already. Looks like Paris will be the guinea pig on August 5th.

 

[flynnibus]

I've meant to ask you this before when you mentioned it -- were they saying the use of Fastpass artificially lowers the ride's hourly capacity?

I think he means elsewhere. Things like labor, footprint, etc.

That would make sense to me, as having to switch back and forth between the lines would cause boarding to take longer than it otherwise would. I wouldn't think it would have a huge effect, though.

This is why merge is done before grouping. Only in the most constrained footprints is merge near boarding/grouping.

 

[UNCgolf]

This is why merge is done before grouping. Only in the most constrained footprints is merge near boarding/grouping.

I forgot the lines merged before boarding.

Either way I knew it would be a minor issue overall and certainly not the main point.

 

[marni1971]

Since you've resurfaced in this thread,

I’ve been trying to stay out of it TBH. Only the covid ones have more crazies.

 

[pdude81]

I’ve been trying to stay out of it TBH. Only the covid ones have more crazies.

Ha, I almost missed a runDisney registration arguing about nothing this morning.

I just don't get why they say they want less people in the parks to manage lines/satisfaction if they they don't. Either bring back something on line management or close the flood gates. It's getting to the point where you need a VIP tour to have a magical day.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Yes. I do understand how FP works. What you are quoting is the employee handbook. Never have I seen 80 FP users walk past 20 standby guests to get on a ride. And neither have you. So no. FP does not make the standby lines longer by any discerable amount. I am done arguing this point with you since you are simple a FP hater that hates it just for existing. Have a good day.

Sorry, but, again, you are wrong. Have you managed or operated WDW attractions? It does not have to be 80 people then 20, then 80, then 20. It doesn't work like that. They let through smaller total number but they keep the ratio the same. No attractions CM running a merge position would allow it to ever get far from 80/20, lest the FP get very backed up (which did still happen when Disney gave out too many FPs). They have to fill the queue past the merge position, so by the time you get there, there often isn't room for 80 people, which is why you've anecdotally never seen 80 people let through at once. So you wind up letting groups through in smaller batches, while still adhering to the 4:1 ratio. Maybe they let 40 FP through, with 10 standby. Then maybe 20 fp with 5 standby. How else do you think they don't keep the standby line and FP equal? Disney gives out a ton of FPs, so they have to constantly be pulling from FP while telling standby to wait.

 

[G00fyDad]

Sorry, but, again, you are wrong. Have you managed or operated WDW attractions? It does not have to be 80 people then 20, then 80, then 20. It doesn't work like that. They let through smaller total number but they keep the ratio the same. No attractions CM running a merge position would allow it to ever get far from 80/20, lest the FP get very backed up (which did still happen when Disney gave out too many FPs). Most commonly there isn't room for 80 people past the merge position, so you wind up groups let through in smaller batches, while still adhering to the 4:1 ratio. Maybe they let 40 FP through, with 10 standby.

Okay. Moving on....

And we still have no word on a replacement.....

 

[WDWTrojan]

Whatever. If you are so deluded that you think the few FP users coming through a line makes your standby wait extremely long then there is nothing I can do to help you with that. No one can. You are completely convinced that the few FP users have somehow increased your wait by 20, 30, 40, 50, even 60 minutes and nothing anyone says will change your mind. I am done discussing wait times. I will just hope that you have a decent time at WDW as I will and leave you to it.

"the few FP users" There I think is your issue. They gave out hundreds per hour. It was nowhere near a few.

 

[castlecake2.0]

Literally many people who worked and managed these attractions are telling you how it worked, yet your anecdotal experience trumps that. Beyond me.

Because the guest is always right lol

 

[marni1971]

 

[pdude81]

See, aren't you glad you stopped by?