FastPass+ Most Certainly Not Coming Back As It Was

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hopemax

Well-Known Member
Is there an example of a state-of-the-art ride that can also handle huge volumes of people, by any park? Half of this thread is people saying "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded!".
Forbidden Journey, Gringotts and Hagrid's are all supposed to be in the 2000-2500 pph range (and some sites say some might be higher).

FOP - 1440
RoTR - hoping to eventually get to 1700ish
Tron - 1680

Ratatouille, according to Google says 2250, so that's at least something.

WDI and Disney chose to be satisfied with these numbers (and Frozen on top of Malestrom's dismal OHRC instead of opening a new omnimover/IASW/Pirates style ride on that plot they built a store and a M&G). It's the factor that's more galling than not building new rides. Also the stories that Disney was told to open the TSMM third track and third Soarin theater BEFORE they turned FP+ on, and they chose not to. These improvements brought capacity UP to 1700 ish

If Disney opens a headliner with significantly less than 2000 pph at this point, they should be held to account. This is supposed to be a group of the most creative theme park entertainment minds, they need to figure it out.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Lol! The point is they were still "new attractions"
It's not adding an attraction to unused space I agree, but it's still drawing people to a specific part of the park and crowding up that area due to the novelty of a new attraction, whether it replaced one or not.
But they did almost nothing from
1999-2009…which is all that new stuff got you back to…

the #1 challenge to amusements is stagnation…Disney calls for it. May not last forever
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
So...they were implemented in 2013, and effectively, FP+ was turned off at the start of 2020.

So we'll say 7 years.

Is it even possible that the $2 billion spent on that system has been made back over and above what the yearly revenue would have been anyways?

ETA: And even further...could it possibly have generated more than the $2 billion it cost over and above what the revenue would have been?

EDIT 2: Bear in mind...the revenue from WDW is the only revenue that can be considered...because this system was designed for and implemented at WDW.
This is going to be a long and winding post. I apologize in advance for those who feel like reading it.

It's a question of value, as you'd have to sum up all the direct spending as well as the data mining. So there is the direct purchase of magic bands, in which they certainly made money over the minute cost of them. I will consider that amount negligible. The things that are much harder to sum up are the increases in Dining plan usage, and increases in guest spending per capita relative to the before times.

It's a different kind of bubble economy for Disney. They built a bubble an convinced us it was better to just stay in it. While in the bubble we paid for everything with a tap of the wrist instead of pulling out cards or cash for every expenditure. For a while you didn't have to figure out gratuities and could just overspend on dining plans when you normally wouldn't order appetizers and multiple snacks a day.

This is all real money, and a lot of it, but I can't give a number without spending weeks going through financial discloures and park attendance estimates to still be guessing.

As for the next thing, IMO the biggest value is information they were able to use on guest behavior across the parks, hotels, and DS. Fastpass letting in the vast majority of riders gives much more accurate data on ride waits and capacity/distribution than checking the number on the turnstiles every now and then. Linking guest behavior based on food/beverage purchases. Adding extra hour events to the morning and night and figuring out which guests would purchase them, based on various attributes stored on file (AP, DVC, state/region, Annual Salary, etc). They mix together your activity with the voluntary survey data and they know better what you'll be willing to pay for than you do before you get there. And then you get emails about the events you might want to pay for weeks ahead of your visit!

EMH used to be free, but suddenly you have EMM and DAH doubling your park ticket price when you already paid. Not double for AP since they are fixed cost, but those people used to be only worth food/bev/merch money in the parks and now you can hit them for another $100+ per trip to get on attractions at a time the park used to be open anyway.

If anybody has stats on what they pull in for DAH and EMM annually I'd count all of that. The parties existed before so I'll leave them alone, but they used all that survey and purchase data to figure out how many people they could jam in before people would blow it up on social media.

I think that data would be invaluable to the company in the long term and possibly worth the full cost of MyMagic/FP. But let us not forget how it allowed them to push people into attractions that previously had low waits so they didn't have to invest in more headline attractions. They've underinvested in attractions to the tune of at least a billion dollars since 2013, right?

So again it's how do you value each piece of the puzzle. They had to spend the money anyway, and pitched it as people spending more on food and merch. I think people did, but certainly not to the tune of 2 billion dollars. That was never the real purpose anyway though. I believe as many do that it was short sighted not to just suck up the cost of the data mining operation and keep building, but if the goal was to keep pushing up the stock price until the CEO retired, then the goal was met.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I’ve accepted that fact multiple times in this thread. I don’t know how much more I have to say it.

Sorry about that -- your comment about first world misery sounded like you were saying it didn't matter that it was impossible for everyone to have the same great experience you did even if they did the exact same things you did.

FP+ was essentially a zero sum game because every time someone was able to get a FP, someone else lost out on one (it's a bit more complicated than that, but that's good enough for a simple representation). It was great for me personally, and was probably still great for almost anyone who knew the tricks, but that was going to eventually go away as more and more people became aware of what to do.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Is there an example of a state-of-the-art ride that can also handle huge volumes of people, by any park? Half of this thread is people saying "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded!".
There are…

and it’s “too many people still go there even when they don’t do anything to entice them”
 

Waters Back Side

Well-Known Member
I have to ask this for the planners out there. I'm only asking to try to understand the reasoning behind spreadsheets. Do any of you go to other parks at all? Going to an amusement park shouldn't involve this much planning. I get that Disney is different but they also trained most of you.

I never use a spreadsheet. Im a planner and even for me that's too much lol. I keep it simple but I also always know ahead of time what I want to do. I can tell you without a doubt, that in 6 months when i go, i plan to eat at Cape May Cafe (if the buffet is back) And it will be at the end of A HS studios park day. Following that we will stroll the boardwalk for a bit. There is no stress involved in that kind of plan in advance.

WDW is bigger then any other theme park so even though I dont go the spreadsheet route I can at least understand why someone might.

What makes it easier for me to not cram everything in is I always tell myself..you will never see it and do it all. Even if you go 50 times. There will always be something you have never done.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Forbidden Journey, Gringotts and Hagrid's are all supposed to be in the 2000-2500 pph range (and some sites say some might be higher).

FOP - 1440
RoTR - hoping to eventually get to 1700ish
Tron - 1680

Ratatouille, according to Google says 2250, so that's at least something.

WDI and Disney chose to be satisfied with these numbers (and Frozen on top of Malestrom's dismal OHRC instead of opening a new omnimover/IASW/Pirates style ride on that plot they built a store and a M&G). It's the factor that's more galling than not building new rides. Also the stories that Disney was told to open the TSMM third track and third Soarin theater BEFORE they turned FP+ on, and they chose not to. These improvements brought capacity UP to 1700 ish

If Disney opens a headliner with significantly less than 2000 pph at this point, they should be held to account. This is supposed to be a group of the most creative theme park entertainment minds, they need to figure it out.
On an Omni or track less…that’s a direct result of cutting length/cost.

they get a pass on everything being short

the two new trackless are embarrassingly short
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Sorry about that -- your comment about first world misery sounded like you were saying it didn't matter that it was impossible for everyone to have the same great experience you did even if they did the exact same things you did.
I was responding to the idea that some unfortunate soul was being deprived of a wonderful time (or, worse still, being forced to endure misery) because I'd managed to nab myself a desirable FP+. It's just silly. No-one who is lucky enough to be in a Disney park can reasonably claim to be having a miserable time. There are plenty of ways to enjoy yourself, even if it means waiting for or skipping certain attractions.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
On an Omni or floor less…that’s a direct result of cutting length/cost.

they get a pass on everything being short

the two new trackless are embarrassingly short
Attraction length is a whole other dissertation on "How WDW has messed up the theme park experience." I hope everyone is enjoying their 3 minute rides after their long queues. It's like no one ever figured out "don't give the kid a toy he will break in 2 seconds because then the Mom I'm bored whines start again" when you can put him in front of a screen* to occupy him long enough for Mom to make dinner.

*This is not a request for more rides with screens
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
On an Omni or track less…that’s a direct result of cutting length/cost.

they get a pass on everything being short

the two new trackless are embarrassingly short

I think this is a pretty big deal that people don't talk about enough. Disney is building much shorter rides than they did at one point. Most of the attractions at EPCOT were 10+ minutes long; most of what they build now is 5 minutes or less. Flight of Passage and MMRR are under 5 minutes, and I think Ratatouille is right around there as well. Navi River Journey is also under 5, which basically torpedoes the ride for most people -- while I still enjoy it because the execution of what's there is excellent, it would definitely be a better experience and more highly regarded if it was 9 minutes long instead of 4 and a half. TRON is barely 2 minutes, and Slinky Dog is maybe 2 and a half. I don't think we have a length for Guardians, but it seems very unlikely that it will be longer than 4-5 minutes.

With that said, the two Star Wars rides are longer so maybe they're at least considering shifting back to building longer attractions.
 
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MrPromey

Well-Known Member
It is also impossible to COMPLETELY fix the standby line waits. Even with no FP ever again. But that has not stopped people from insisting that FP didn't work.

A year from now if there was no FP there would still be long stretches at WDW where line waits were not tolerable. And whatever the new system is will not fix it completely either.

No argument here.

I've been saying since the start that Disney needs more than a system to shuffle people around to fix their capacity issues.

I just don't see where they have any motive to do much since they now have the potential ability to charge their highest paying customers for a solution that's essentially free for Disney.

If they lose some of the lower paying customers - all the better when it comes to dealing with their crowding, right?

Since that mass will not fall in a linear manner, I'm curious how they think they're going to control this transition, if that is in fact what they're doing, without permanently burning keepers in the process.
 
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RobbinsDad

Well-Known Member
This is going to be a long and winding post. I apologize in advance for those who feel like reading it.

It's a question of value, as you'd have to sum up all the direct spending as well as the data mining. So there is the direct purchase of magic bands, in which they certainly made money over the minute cost of them. I will consider that amount negligible. The things that are much harder to sum up are the increases in Dining plan usage, and increases in guest spending per capita relative to the before times.

It's a different kind of bubble economy for Disney. They built a bubble an convinced us it was better to just stay in it. While in the bubble we paid for everything with a tap of the wrist instead of pulling out cards or cash for every expenditure. For a while you didn't have to figure out gratuities and could just overspend on dining plans when you normally wouldn't order appetizers and multiple snacks a day.

This is all real money, and a lot of it, but I can't give a number without spending weeks going through financial discloures and park attendance estimates to still be guessing.

As for the next thing, IMO the biggest value is information they were able to use on guest behavior across the parks, hotels, and DS. Fastpass letting in the vast majority of riders gives much more accurate data on ride waits and capacity/distribution than checking the number on the turnstiles every now and then. Linking guest behavior based on food/beverage purchases. Adding extra hour events to the morning and night and figuring out which guests would purchase them, based on various attributes stored on file (AP, DVC, state/region, Annual Salary, etc). They mix together your activity with the voluntary survey data and they know better what you'll be willing to pay for than you do before you get there. And then you get emails about the events you might want to pay for weeks ahead of your visit!

EMH used to be free, but suddenly you have EMM and DAH doubling your park ticket price when you already paid. Not double for AP since they are fixed cost, but those people used to be only worth food/bev/merch money in the parks and now you can hit them for another $100+ per trip to get on attractions at a time the park used to be open anyway.

If anybody has stats on what they pull in for DAH and EMM annually I'd count all of that. The parties existed before so I'll leave them alone, but they used all that survey and purchase data to figure out how many people they could jam in before people would blow it up on social media.

I think that data would be invaluable to the company in the long term and possibly worth the full cost of MyMagic/FP. But let us not forget how it allowed them to push people into attractions that previously had low waits so they didn't have to invest in more headline attractions. They've underinvested in attractions to the tune of at least a billion dollars since 2013, right?

So again it's how do you value each piece of the puzzle. They had to spend the money anyway, and pitched it as people spending more on food and merch. I think people did, but certainly not to the tune of 2 billion dollars. That was never the real purpose anyway though. I believe as many do that it was short sighted not to just suck up the cost of the data mining operation and keep building, but if the goal was to keep pushing up the stock price until the CEO retired, then the goal was met.
Good post, and I believe what Disney learned about their consumers' behavior is what most companies are learning - people will pay more for convenience and custom experiences.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
No argument here.

I've been saying since the start that Disney needs more than a system to shuffle people around to fix their capacity issues.

I just don't see where they have any motive to do much since they now have the potential ability to charge their highest paying customers for a solution that's essentially free for Disney.
And now we’ve come full circle

charging you to choose/not to choose the amount of dead minutes in shortened park days is covering up their problem.

and that is that Iger didn’t add the 1 attraction (add…not overlay) every 3 years on average to EACH until they are built out..and 2 of the 4 aren’t built out
 
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MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
So right off the bat, the number of people that want to do these attractions is likely above the number of people who can. Now add a layer of FP to that and the number of people who would like to do these attractions with a 25 minute or less wait, far exceeds the number of people who can.

Congrats to you both if 100% of the time, you've always fallen into the category of the "haves" with every single day of every single trip you've ever made. For most "normal" guests, that number is closer to 0% and for it to work so well for you, that has to be the case.*


*it doesn't really matter if the cause is you being able to book at 60 days and them not being able to, you using they system while they totally ignore it, you knowing better what things "need" fast-pass or not or being willing to commando to get all those passes by refreshing the app all day, etc. For you to win at that level, there has to be someone who looses equally because that's how it always works in situations of scarcity.
Perhaps part of the difference is that when some of us see a line that is 60 minutes, some of us don't get into that queue. It is currently 2:30pm, so presumably right now is about as crowded as the park will be today. In MK, currently there are at least 9 attractions we - ALL of us - could ride that have a posted wait time that is under half an hour, and 4 more that have 35 minute waits. In my experience, this is almost always the pattern at WDW.

Without FP, some of us just wouldn't enter any headliner queue between - approximately - the hours of 11am-4:30pm. Not at WDW, not at Universal, not at ANY amusement/theme park anywhere in the world, unless the waits were all very low. Mostly, park touring is just that simple. If you take 10 seconds to read a park map or the park webpage, EVERY park brochure broadcasts the name of the park headliners. Aim to cover the headliners during non-peak hours.

Mid-day peak hours are the time to hit the non-headliner attractions that have shorter lines, and that is often most of the park if you allow any time at all to shop/eat. Epcot has lots of gardens, AK has many animal walk-through areas: there are the two bigger ones, plus a number of smaller ones. Mid-day is also a great time to hop on the AK or MK trains( Rafiki's Planet Watch). Mid-day is also a good time to see some of the shows.

I feel bad for anyone that goes to Epcot especially, and doesn't take time to smell the flowers. The flowers are spectacular, and maintaining them takes hundreds of man-hours. The gardeners are up super early every morning pruning/replanting/watering. For that matter, the gardens at many of the hotels are also spectacular.

MK is far more than the E-ride Mountain attractions.
 

G00fyDad

Well-Known Member
Agreed. There is still a necessity to plan for people who like to.

Planners find a way to plan. If WDW shrivelled away to only 2 options..planners would plan when to do those two options.

That's the thing with me. I love planning so much now that I have spreadsheets upon spreadsheets but I still remember the good old days of heading to Disney without much of a plan and still having a great time.
 

LuvtheGoof

DVC Guru
Premium Member
Of course we would. If they opened a new attraction, demand for that attraction would exceed capacity and it would have a ... long line.

In recent memory they opened Flight of Passage, the Navi River Boat thing, Rise of the Resistance and Millennium Falcon, and all of those rides are pulling an additional thousand+ people each, per hour, and yet the lines persist.

Adding attractions is meant to generate MORE crowds, not control the ones you already have.
The problem is that all of the new rides have low capacity compared to the crowds at the park. What they need to do is install large people eating rides, like HM or SE that have very high capacity, so more people are spread out doing those attractions as well. The new MK theater that should have happened would have helped there as well. Tron will not help at all, and will actually make Tomorrowland much worse crowd wise.
 

RobbinsDad

Well-Known Member
What “experiences”?

just stick to what it is: foods and rides

drinks for me
After hours parties, VIP tours, Galactic Starcruisers for starters. You're simplifying it - yes at it's core it's food and rides (and hotel rooms) but these lift the experience in a person's mind to more than what the regular folks at WDW have. Some of these experiences have been a bust (cabanas anyone?), but others are popular.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
So...they were implemented in 2013, and effectively, FP+ was turned off at the start of 2020.

So we'll say 7 years.

Is it even possible that the $2 billion spent on that system has been made back over and above what the yearly revenue would have been anyways?

ETA: And even further...could it possibly have generated more than the $2 billion it cost over and above what the revenue would have been?

EDIT 2: Bear in mind...the revenue from WDW is the only revenue that can be considered...because this system was designed for and implemented at WDW.

To be fair, there were some resort-wide upgrades that came along as a side-effect.

The free wifi may not be very good but it was non-existent before FP+.

I'm sure there were other infrastructure upgrades that benefited the resorts that were not guest facing, too. Probably all stuff that needed to happen sooner or later with or without FP+.

Still, there were weird limitations (like having to still cary a physical card that reflected discounts because the magic band could not be used to pull it up) that never made sense to me for what an endeavor, rolling this out, apparently was.
 
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