FastPass+ Disappearing on Some Attractions?

[jaklgreen]

But you have to know that research is needed. When someone plans to visit a place like WDW, they're making the assumption that they can just go up to the gate, pay their money, and go right in. Until someone explains to them why this is not going to work, they have no reason to assume anything else.

You don't have to know any such thing. Common sense says that you should know the bare minimum to go anywhere. Things like, what are their hours, how much does it cost, how do I get there, etc. To just get in your car, drive 24 hours, and then just show up somewhere knowing absolutely nothing but the name of the place is asinine. Especially during a pandemic. I can't figure out if these people are really just incapable of common sense thinking , or just live in the "ignorance is bliss" mindset and think that everything and everyone will just makes things happen for them. My Dad had this way of thinking. He would not plan anything and would think that what he wanted at the moment should happen, regardless of if it was possible or not. Why plan ahead when you can just bully people to give you what you want when you want it. It is a miserable way to go about your life. Maybe not necessarily for the person with this attitude, but for everyone around them.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I think that my argument for the importance of Virtual Queuing systems (which is really all that Fast Pass is) is that it acts as more of a reservation system than anything. Its the same reason that you make an appointment for a doctor's visit, and don't just sit in the waiting room for weeks. The issue is that there are more people in a given hour that want to ride than Disney bothered to make seats for. As every hour passes, you have to get through not only the new people coming in, but the old people who there wasn't capacity for previously. What do you do with the extra people? You want to keep them in a line like a caged animal unable to do anything else. I suggest that you give them comeback times so they can walk around, occupy themselves, get something to eat, or give on rides that there's capacity for.

Its a matter of philosophy. Ultimately, the end game goal should just be increasing speed, capacity, and whipping through more people. More omnimovers, more rides in general, more capacity. That's really the best way to solve these issues.

Doesn't the solution of virtual queuing contribute to overcrowding of every public area then? The parks already have trouble processing all the people that show up. Now you're gonna take everyone who would've waited in a line and have them roam the park? Did you just add thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who would be waiting in a standby queue and flooded the walk areas, restaurants, and shops?

Remember the long line during the busy months to buy a simply hotdog or hamburger that took forever even though people are around the park waiting in lines? Now you've just taken all those folks and thrown them into the mix making lines for everything godawful.

 

[MsAnniee]

I don't understand the general sense of entitlement regarding FP+. "I love FP+ because I like to plan every step of my vacation months in advance and then I don't have to wait in ridiculously long lines." Ummm, those waiting in the standby line aren't inanimate objects, or cattle. Because you win, they lose meaning every person who walks in from FP is a person who has to wait a little longer and all because they like to plan months in advance. Those standby folks are people who paid to get into the park as well and also want to ride the ride. What makes one person so much better that they get to ride it with a 15 min wait, and most others have to wait 3 hrs? I'll never understand the logic and sense of entitlement of why people think that "FP+ is so great because I don't have to wait with all the losers in standby." Btw, I'm not quoting anyone. I'm just adding that for dramatic effect.

With that said, if one would argue that everyone has the same ability to book FP, so if everyone does it everyone is equal, that would be disingenuous because the argument is that it makes the parks more enjoyable and that could only be true if there is a win to be had from the system.

How do you feel about people who zoom up the fire lane or shoulder in traffic to shoehorn themselves in front of a whole line of cars? I realize one is considered an accepted and legitimate part of the system, but it is the same sense of entitlement. Why should I wait in that long line?

Planning in advance is a choice. Those that plan in advance may get on rides quicker, but everyone had the opportunity to plan in advance.

I don’t understand the analogy of using the fire lane or shoulder of the road (both which are not legal) and planning in advance for the use of fast passes.

However, this seems to be a moot issue as fast passes are not available at this time. Who knows when or if Disney will even bring fast passes back.

 

[plawren2]

I guess my point is that the FP+ system, although available to all, picks winners and losers. If someone is more tech savvy, or is capable of better learning the way the FP+ system works, they can gain a larger advantage through the system. I'm not sure why Disney promotes this kind of disparity when everyone is paying relatively the same price to enter. Just sell "first class tickets" or PayPass. I'm gonna going that phrase before Disney picks up on it.

"If someone is more tech savvy, or is capable of better learning the way the FP+ system works, they can gain a larger advantage through the system." Happens in all aspects of life, plenty of situations where knowledge and planning benefits those who plan-including for vacations

 

[aliceismad]

My point is that the preplanning of FP+ is not necessary. Disneyland has never had the preplanning aspect that fp+ has - fast pass and maxpass are both you have to be in the park, day of use only. And lines were absolutely not longer than Disney World, if anything they were shorter. The pre-planning aspect is what many here have been commenting negatively on, and Disneyland shows that the 60 day out preplanning is not necessary.

Comparing DLR to WDW is not an apples to apples comparison in my brain. For example, DL and MK may have similar capacities, but MK averages something like 7,000 more people a day. Meanwhile DL has more attractions. Not to mention the differences in the guest demographics - locals vs. non-locals - which drives guest desires, wait tolerances, etc.

I agree that the math I've seen suggests that a different method would lead to shorter lines than FP+. I'm just not convinced that a DLR model would lead to DLR waits in a WDW setting.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

You don't have to know any such thing. Common sense says that you should know the bare minimum to go anywhere. Things like, what are their hours, how much does it cost, how do I get there, etc. To just get in your car, drive 24 hours, and then just show up somewhere knowing absolutely nothing but the name of the place is asinine. Especially during a pandemic. I can't figure out if these people are really just incapable of common sense thinking , or just live in the "ignorance is bliss" mindset and think that everything and everyone will just makes things happen for them. My Dad had this way of thinking. He would not plan anything and would think that what he wanted at the moment should happen, regardless of if it was possible or not. Why plan ahead when you can just bully people to give you what you want when you want it. It is a miserable way to go about your life. Maybe not necessarily for the person with this attitude, but for everyone around them.

Personally, I'm generally well versed in both how WDW and Universal work, but truly, no other amusement parks I have ever visited has the absurd planning system of pre-pandemic WDW.

Many times over, I have indeed -just shown up at amusement parks with no preplanning, and it was no big deal. No yelling, just enjoying whatever happens.

Honestly, I feel bad for anyone that doesn't allow for spontaneity in their life. Just yesterday, I went for a spontaneous Sunday drive, just to get out of the house. I didn't go to an amusement park, but the drive was just...on the spur of the moment. It was fun! To me, that = freedom.

I'm not sure why you're equating freedom and spontaneity with being a bully. There too, I think I have to disagree. I have too often seen parents berating their children at WDW because the day isn't going according to 'plan.' Like little girls crying because a princess crinoline is miserable to wear in 90+ degree heat. Equally bad was that pirate make-up thing they used to offer: in summer heat black face paint just melts, but parents get mad at their children for hating the make-up.

 

[plawren2]

Why FP increases waits: a mathematical example.

BACKGROUND:

• We have a theoretical ride that has a capacity of 2000 guests per hour, or 500 per 15 minutes.
• Every 15 minutes, 1000 guests walk up to that ride (or look at their phone) to check the wait time.
• Of those 1000 guests, 100 are willing to wait 10 minutes to ride that ride, 100 are willing to wait 20 minutes for that particular ride, 100 are willing to wait 30 minutes, and so on to the final group of 100 who are willing to wait 100 minutes for the ride. We will call these groups of 100 "wait groups"
• In scenario 1, we do not have Fastpass, and everyone is admitted through Standby
• In scenario 2, 75% of guests are admitted from the Fastpass line
  • These guests (375 per 15 minute block) are pulled evenly from all willingnesses to wait (because the FP wait time is supposed to be max 5 minutes and they're all willing to wait 5 minutes) so each wait group is contributing 37 riders per 15 minutes to the FP queue, and thus only has 63 guests per wait group per 15 minutes walking up or checking their phone for the wait time.
• For simplicities sake, we're doing this in 15 minute blocks (even though Disney updates wait times every 5 minutes or so)

Scenario 1:
As you can see in below, at 9:00 when the park opens, the posted wait time is 5 minutes, and all 1000 guests who walk up in the first 15 minutes enter the queue. 500 ride the ride, leaving 500 in line. So at 9:15, the posted wait time becomes 15 minutes.

This means that all the people willing to wait only 10 minutes no longer want to get in line, so only 900 people enter the queue (the people willing to wait 20-100 minutes). 500 ride the ride, and at 9:30, with 900 people in line, the wait time is set at 25 minutes, and the people only willing to wait 20 minutes no longer want to enter the queue.

This continues for a while but it hits a balancing point. Eventually at 10:45, the posted wait time becomes 55 minutes. At 50 minutes, 500 people enter the queue, and 500 people ride the ride, with 1700 people in line, so the wait time stays at 55 minutes for the rest of the day. You can see this in the table below.

View attachment 546770

Scenario 2:
As you can see in below, at 9:00 when the park opens, the posted wait time is 5 minutes, and again, all 625 guests who walk up in the first 15 minutes enter the standby queue (remember, the other 375 guests who would have walked up have Fastpasses). In this scenario though, only 125 ride the ride in that first 15 minutes, because 375 ride spaces are going to FastPass. So after 15 minutes, there are 500 in line, just like in scenario 1, but that represents a wait time of 1 hour instead of 15 minutes, because with FastPass, only 125 people come our of the Standby queue every 15 minutes. That 1 hour is already longer than we ever see in scenario 1.

With a posted wait time of 60 minutes, only those willing to wait 60-100 minutes will enter the queue, so we get 313 guests entering the standby queue between 9:15 and 9:30. Again, however, only 125 board the ride from the standby queue, leaving 688 in line, which represents a wait time of 85 minutes.

With a posted wait of 85 minutes, we actually hit the FastPass equilibrium. only people willing to wait 90-100 minutes are entering the ride (125 per 15 minutes), and 125 people are riding from standby per 15 minutes, so the line remains at 688 people, and the wait time stays at 85 minutes the rest of the day, as you can see below.

View attachment 546772
This is obviously an oversimplification, but hopefully it explains why wait times HAVE to be longer with FastPass.

TL : DR, FP increases wait times because people who wouldn't have waited the posted wait time are cutting the line.

Sure saves me long waits in line at least 3x a day (FP+) or more if additional FP+ are also available. Along with EMH and staying into closure, FP+ has been key strategy for us to maximize time in park while reducing total time waiting in line while in a park.

 

[CastAStone]

Sure saves me long waits in line at least 3x a day (FP+) or more if additional FP+ are also available. Along with EMH and staying into closure, FP+ has been key strategy for us to maximize time in park while reducing total time waiting in line while in a park.

The advanced user can certainly game the system. The average person waits in 3 very short lines and 6 somewhat longer lines and at the end of the day has waited more total time than they would have without FP but has had a better experience with none of the lines being TOO long. At least, that’s what happened in 2013 and 2014 before attendance grew to the point that it completely overwhelmed the system.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

"If someone is more tech savvy, or is capable of better learning the way the FP+ system works, they can gain a larger advantage through the system." Happens in all aspects of life, plenty of situations where knowledge and planning benefits those who plan-including for vacations

Absolutely. What's your point? Why would Disney decide to create one that so drastically affects a large portion of their customers to pick winners and losers? Btw, I'm not one who is affected by an introduction of tech like apps, etc.

Also, the need for planning in order to not have a miserable time completely eliminates anyone from saying, "hey, I have to a slow week later this month. Let's take the family to WDW." Why would they make it suck so bad to book unplanned vacations to their parks? If you know how much planning and early booking for FP is needed, chances of taking a last minute trip there are basically zero. It's just bad business. If you book a last minute trip to WDW for the family, excluding COVID protocols, forget any thought of getting on rides in a reasonable amount of time. You'll be in standby for every ride, watching 20 people walk past you for every 2 people who enter from standby.

 

[plawren2]

The advanced user can certainly game the system. The average person waits in 3 very short lines and 6 somewhat longer lines and at the end of the day has waited more total time than they would have without FP but has had a better experience with none of the lines being TOO long. At least, that’s what happened in 2013 and 2014 before attendance grew to the point that it completely overwhelmed the system.

its not gaming the system nor requires an advanced user, first visit when FP+ was available, I knew enough that reserving 3 attractions would mean 3 less long waits in line.

 

[plawren2]

Absolutely. What's your point? Why would Disney decide to create one that so drastically affects a large portion of their customers to pick winners and losers? Btw, I'm not one who is affected by an introduction of tech like apps, etc.

Also, the need for planning in order to not have a miserable time completely eliminates anyone from saying, "hey, I have to a slow week later this month. Let's take the family to WDW." Why would they make it suck so bad to book unplanned vacations to their parks? If you know how much planning and early booking for FP is needed, chances of taking a last minute trip there are basically zero. It's just bad business. If you book a last minute trip to WDW for the family, excluding COVID protocols, forget any thought of getting on rides in a reasonable amount of time. You'll be in standby for every ride, watching 20 people walk past you for every 2 people who enter from standby.

WDW created a system that allowed guests who stayed at the WDW resort to have advantage in being able to pre-select 3 attractions and avoid long waits while in the park. Its that simple. You can certainly make last minute plans to go to WDW and still enjoy-some planning there can also help avoid some of the rides (FP+ is not the only approach)

 

[plawren2]

Personally, I'm generally well versed in both how WDW and Universal work, but truly, no other amusement parks I have ever visited has the absurd planning system of pre-pandemic WDW.

Many times over, I have indeed -just shown up at amusement parks with no preplanning, and it was no big deal. No yelling, just enjoying whatever happens.

Honestly, I feel bad for anyone that doesn't allow for spontaneity in their life. Just yesterday, I went for a spontaneous Sunday drive, just to get out of the house. I didn't go to an amusement park, but the drive was just...on the spur of the moment. It was fun! To me, that = freedom.

I'm not sure why you're equating freedom and spontaneity with being a bully. There too, I think I have to disagree. I have too often seen parents berating their children at WDW because the day isn't going according to 'plan.' Like little girls crying because a princess crinoline is miserable to wear in 90+ degree heat. Equally bad was that pirate make-up thing they used to offer: in summer heat black face paint just melts, but parents get mad at their children for hating the make-up.

"Honestly, I feel bad for anyone that doesn't allow for spontaneity in their life. Just yesterday, I went for a spontaneous Sunday drive, just to get out of the house. I didn't go to an amusement park, but the drive was just...on the spur of the moment. It was fun! To me, that = freedom."

Plenty of ways to have have spontaneity in life (and freedom), including with vacations, but WDW is not one of those, unless you like to spend $1000s for a family trip, have limited days and also limited hrs in park per day, and you end up spending hours of that valuable time and money waiting in line. It has been decades since WDW was a visit where spontaneity was possible. yes is sad, but reality

 

[aliceismad]

Like little girls crying because a princess crinoline is miserable to wear in 90+ degree heat. Equally bad was that pirate make-up thing they used to offer: in summer heat black face paint just melts, but parents get mad at their children for hating the make-up.

I agree that should be flexibility in the schedule, especially when dealing with kiddos. But honestly I think those parents would be horrible regardless of whether there is a "plan" or FPs in place. Some people have expectations of their kid in their princess costume laughing on Dumbo and getting the most magical pictures of the most magical memory ever so they can post it to instagram and blow up the minute their kid actually acts like a human instead of a prop. I've seen the same thing happen in DLR. I probably was that kid 30 years ago at DLR, so it's not necessarily a new thing either.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

You can certainly make last minute plans to go to WDW and still enjoy-some planning there can also help avoid some of the rides (FP+ is not the only approach)

This piqued my curiosity. What other ways can you shorten ride lines without FP+, sincerely? If I planned a trip three weeks out, COVID notwithstanding, how can I take the trip without waiting excessively in standby lines? No way that any good FP would be available, so curious how one could take that trip and not wait in 120 min lines for all basic rides, let alone the popular ones.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Fast pass + is done.

I thought that the lines would be way more efficient without it...but had to see it.
I saw it...much better in traditional lines.

so they eliminate it and sell a pricey upsell for fastpass.

seems like a no brainer now

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

"Honestly, I feel bad for anyone that doesn't allow for spontaneity in their life. Just yesterday, I went for a spontaneous Sunday drive, just to get out of the house. I didn't go to an amusement park, but the drive was just...on the spur of the moment. It was fun! To me, that = freedom."

Plenty of ways to have have spontaneity in life (and freedom), including with vacations, but WDW is not one of those, unless you like to spend $1000s for a family trip, have limited days and also limited hrs in park per day, and you end up spending hours of that valuable time and money waiting in line. It has been decades since WDW was a visit where spontaneity was possible. yes is sad, but reality

And as I said, to me, it was an absurd aspect of pre-pandemic WDW.

Wait, planning =
unlimited park hours?
+ unlimited number of vacation days?
+ no lines anywhere?

Not the WDW I visited.

The WDW I visited changed park hours at will, cost quite a bit per day, and even had lines even to use the restroom! Even if I booked an ADR at 180 days, I still had to wait in line just to be seated.

Though, full disclosure, I know someone who went to WDW in 2019 on a whim. She did very well scoring same-day FP+, using peripheral park hours, and scoring same-day dining. She booked her hotel on the way to the airport! In the end, it cost about the same, too, because she got dirt-cheap airfare.

 

[aliceismad]

This piqued my curiosity. What other ways can you shorten ride lines without FP+, sincerely? If I planned a trip three weeks out, COVID notwithstanding, how can I take the trip without waiting excessively in standby lines? No way that any good FP would be available, so curious how one could take that trip and not wait in 120 min lines for all basic rides, let alone the popular ones.

I mean, the old standards are avoid holidays, school breaks, and weekends for your trip and focus on rides the 1st hour or 2 the park is open, the last hour before close, and during meal times. And check the Disney app for line times. Also, during non-covid times, line length tends to go down during parades, fireworks, and nightly shows. Those are the rules we always used at Disneyland. The only rides I've waited 120 minutes for were new rides at the time. There are also tricks like going left instead of right and starting at the back of the park rather than the front, but I'm not sure if those are viable options anymore.

Right now, for instance, a Monday in April, the longest lines listed are 70 minutes for Splash and Soarin. (65 for SDD and 60 for BTMR, MF:SR, and SE) I don't feel like 60 minutes is an excessively long time to wait for an E-ticket or popular ride. Plus Disney usually inflates wait times.

 

[plawren2]

This piqued my curiosity. What other ways can you shorten ride lines without FP+, sincerely? If I planned a trip three weeks out, COVID notwithstanding, how can I take the trip without waiting excessively in standby lines? No way that any good FP would be available, so curious how one could take that trip and not wait in 120 min lines for all basic rides, let alone the popular ones.

get in the park the minute it opens, also be there and get in lines minutes before it closes (otherwise at least pick dates when most kids are in school and families not on vacation), its not same as using FP+ but can help. There is are also crowd calendars that suggest which parks are most busy for each day of the year-avoid those parks on those days.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I agree that should be flexibility in the schedule, especially when dealing with kiddos. But honestly I think those parents would be horrible regardless of whether there is a "plan" or FPs in place. Some people have expectations of their kid in their princess costume laughing on Dumbo and getting the most magical pictures of the most magical memory ever so they can post it to instagram and blow up the minute their kid actually acts like a human instead of a prop. I've seen the same thing happen in DLR. I probably was that kid 30 years ago at DLR, so it's not necessarily a new thing either.

To some extent though, planning is - or was- a part of the high expectations of WDW. Well, planning and pre-paying.

It wasn't so bad when tickets never expired, but tickets are now use or lose. If, in 2019, I only used 3 days of my 5 day park ticket, and/or only used 20 of my 36 dining credits, WDW wasn't going to refund the difference. I was just out the $. Dining also became more of a high stakes event, at least if you bought into the idea of booking meals at the 180 day mark.

Park ticket: about $80/day (1 day of 7-day park hopper)
Princess meal: $50+ per person +tax and tip, meal for 4: about $250
Princess dress: $50 +shoes/accessories 75 more = $125 (or up to $200 for the BBB Experience)
Plus the effort of waking up early to book Cinderella's Castle at 180 days, getting everyone to the Castle on time, and all the other park research/bookings, etc.

A parent could easily shell out $500+ - and hours of their time- on the expectation that eating in Cinderella's Castle was going to be a fun event.

 

[plawren2]

To some extent though, planning is - or was- a part of the high expectations of WDW. Well, planning and pre-paying.

It wasn't so bad when tickets never expired, but tickets are now use or lose. If, in 2019, I only used 3 days of my 5 day park ticket, and/or only used 20 of my 36 dining credits, WDW wasn't going to refund the difference. I was just out the $. Dining also became more of a high stakes event, at least if you bought into the idea of booking meals at the 180 day mark.

Park ticket: about $80/day (1 day of 7-day park hopper)
Princess meal: $50+ per person +tax and tip, meal for 4: about $250
Princess dress: $50 +shoes/accessories 75 more = $125 (or up to $200 for the BBB Experience)
Plus the effort of waking up early to book Cinderella's Castle at 180 days, getting everyone to the Castle on time, and all the other park research/bookings, etc.

A parent could easily shell out $500+ - and hours of their time- on the expectation that eating in Cinderella's Castle was going to be a fun event.

And some would have no issue shelling out $500-perhaps regardless of the outcome (whether it was fun or not), others should probably think carefully about that cost for a meal with a character if they were to consider the value of experience they were to gain.