DisneyParker
Member
Coincidentally, I will be at staying at the CSR May 4-7 for the National Conference for Special Education Law. And it's "children with autism" not autistic children": child-first language. 
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Families of autistic kids sue Disney parks over policy on lines
- Thread starter GrumpyFan
- Start date
cw1982
Well-Known Member
I think the reason this, and the other, threads have been focusing on autism is because the people who are suing Disney are families of children with autism. To my recollection, no other disabilities were mentioned in the paperwork (from what I read). Not that other disabilities are less important, but that's what has driven the focus of these discussions.
kucarachi
Active Member
We went in October last year and my wife has severe arthritis...we've never requested the special pass before and we can't afford the hover craft people lawn mower that old ladies try to kill my kids with. We came 3 days before they implemented the new policy, we felt guilty at first but it was pure heaven after years of waiting in long lines well before fast pass to get right on rides...instantly. It made my kids so happy but i saw plenty of abuse and people looked at us and scoffed or cast members rolled their eyes...i would never want to do that again i'd rather be healthy.
But we did wait in line with special needs kids a lot of time and you can't ask them to wait in line with the regular crowd that's not fair to the parents of these kids...its brutal hard work to keep them focused from what i've seen. The new policy is pretty much like regular fast passes but they can't tell you no i think..even if they are all used up for the day. Let the people with disabilities be treated like kings for a day i don't mind an extra 5 minute wait to help a kid facing difficulties have a perfect day. But to sue disney is crazy...there is nowhere on earth more catered to disadvantaged people
But we did wait in line with special needs kids a lot of time and you can't ask them to wait in line with the regular crowd that's not fair to the parents of these kids...its brutal hard work to keep them focused from what i've seen. The new policy is pretty much like regular fast passes but they can't tell you no i think..even if they are all used up for the day. Let the people with disabilities be treated like kings for a day i don't mind an extra 5 minute wait to help a kid facing difficulties have a perfect day. But to sue disney is crazy...there is nowhere on earth more catered to disadvantaged people
rob0519
Well-Known Member
Coincidentally, I will be at staying at the CSR May 4-7 for the National Conference for Special Education Law. And it's "children with autism" not autistic children": child-first language.
Duly noted. Thanks for the correction.
rob0519
Well-Known Member
That is exactly the point. This one group (16 families seeking an unspecified amount of monetary damages) has filed a knee jerk lawsuit and created a national discussion almost solely about their cause. A more well thought out approach involving support groups of additional disabilities may have carried more weight in a court challenge.
Gabe1
Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
The lawsuit...I can see how this could be accepted by an attorney (that's with me knowing some of the laws, even though this is not my area). When I was going through college I worked with a daycare. The children were all developmentally delayed. I eventually became a one on one teacher to a disabled little boy who had been diagnosed with autism. Do I think autistic children should get the card? Yes. After working with my one on one, these children could definitely benefit from having access. Some children can be functioning, but others.....not so much. Disney does need to look more into the disability.
Ok sorry I wrote a book there....
Awe thanks.
Disney is awarding the card to children with Autism. The suit is about discriminating against autism with this new system in that it doesn't in their opinion meet the requirements of ADA for children with Autism. The theory there is that children with severe autism cannot wait at all, that they need to go to the front of line, from attraction to attraction like GAC allowed because it is too much for the children to wait for their DAS FP+ window. The children can get more than the 3 FP+ that the general guests receive however they can only hold one FP+ at a time. When they complete it they are awarded the next time frame for an attraction of their choosing. The lawsuit if won would be not waiting between FP+s, and not having to enter the FP+ queue and wait to be seated, they would bypass even the FP+ queue. Disney does not believe they are being descrimatory to the services granted to Autistic children, the 16 that filed believe it is descrimitory.
Time will tell how this all shakes out. Me<------I can't imagine Disney weighing the who's disability is more deserving of addition services. I can't imagine them ever going down that road.
At the Contemporary two days ago we were next to a lovely golden who's owner suffered from PTSD. They were amazing together. The man and pup did so well together. I noted the new relief areas this week in the parks, far better than the old system. Shows there is always room for improvement and this was much better for the Pups.
As for the Splash family it happened so quickly, one group in boat the other two rows told to hang on a second as they loaded the family into their rows and the boat was off...caught so far off guard that there wasn't time to react. Hindsight I bet they would have balked if they were not taken off guard.
cw1982
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but I was responding to your comment here, that seemed to be more directed at the focus of the threads here on this forum:
I was simply saying that the only reason this is true is because of who is filing the suit and what they have made the focus to be.
Would the suit be stronger if it encompassed a wider range of people with disabilities? Perhaps, but since the scope of this suit doesn't go that far, it would be hard to say for sure without looking at those other disabilities and what damages would be argued.
Sans Souci
Well-Known Member
Coincidentally, I will be at staying at the CSR May 4-7 for the National Conference for Special Education Law. And it's "children with autism" not autistic children": child-first language.
This is actually a hot button topic in the community.
https://autisticadvocacy.org/identity-first-language/
I am a social worker, so I understand the intention behind the person first language. However, I think it needs to be recognized that there are people on the spectrum who prefer identifying themselves as "autistic." My son calls himself an "Aspie" and I will always advocate for his desire to identity himself whatever he feels is appropriate.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
Taking all emotion or personal bias out of the equation and looking at this in practical terms as a lawsuit against a corporation the question is why sue Disney? Why not Universal, Sea World, Bush Gardens, Six Flaggs, other local amusement parks, etc... Do any of these parks have a front of the line pass like GAC was? If a system that doesn't offer immediate front of line access is an acceptable accommodation under ADA for other corporations then how can it not be for Disney? The fact that they had GAC but replaced it with DAS should be completely irrelevant to a court of law. They have to look only at the DAS system independently and decide if it meets the requirements of ADA. It is not the job of the courts to compare the 2 systems and decide which one is better or more accommodating. Disney only has to meet the minimum level of compliance. If the court rules against Disney then that opens the flood gates for lawsuits against many other venues with public access where people wait in lines. Maybe that's the plan, I'm not judging that one way or the other.
I'm kind of skipping over 7 pages of this thread here, and while this is not directly related to the lawsuit, it is related to why the change was made in the first place. Remember that many (most?) attractions began to track GAC usage months before the switch over to the DAS, and many tracked the DAS use at least for the first few months after its implementation? I used to work at one such attraction, and I think the numbers are quite astounding.
These are the average wait times of Attraction X when GAC was used during Christmas 2012 vs when DAS was used during Christmas of 2013:
12/22/2012 35 12/22/2013 31
12/23/2012 43 12/23/2013 26
12/24/2012 45 12/24/2013 27
12/25/2012 41 12/25/2013 31
12/26/2012 24 12/26/2013 28
12/27/2012 62 12/27/2013 39
12/28/2012 67 12/28/2013 37
12/29/2012 41 12/29/2013 30
12/30/2012 80 12/30/2013 60
12/31/2012 53 12/31/2013 36
1/1/2013 51 1/1/2014 29
As you can see, every day except for one day saw (mostly) significantly decreased average wait times compared to the year before except for 12/26; however, in 2012, that day saw 1150 GAC users whereas in 2013, that day saw only 450, so obviously other variables were at play there (one being a significant increase in the number of "No Strings" received compared to the previous year). Also, the 27th saw over 2500 GAC users in 2012, and 550 DAS users in 2013!
Hopefully one argument Disney will make in this lawsuit is that the DAS passes have made wait times less for EVERYONE, including actual DAS users. Yes, the numbers here are standby wait times, but in order to have lower standby wait times, you also need lower fastpass wait times!
These are the average wait times of Attraction X when GAC was used during Christmas 2012 vs when DAS was used during Christmas of 2013:
12/22/2012 35 12/22/2013 31
12/23/2012 43 12/23/2013 26
12/24/2012 45 12/24/2013 27
12/25/2012 41 12/25/2013 31
12/26/2012 24 12/26/2013 28
12/27/2012 62 12/27/2013 39
12/28/2012 67 12/28/2013 37
12/29/2012 41 12/29/2013 30
12/30/2012 80 12/30/2013 60
12/31/2012 53 12/31/2013 36
1/1/2013 51 1/1/2014 29
As you can see, every day except for one day saw (mostly) significantly decreased average wait times compared to the year before except for 12/26; however, in 2012, that day saw 1150 GAC users whereas in 2013, that day saw only 450, so obviously other variables were at play there (one being a significant increase in the number of "No Strings" received compared to the previous year). Also, the 27th saw over 2500 GAC users in 2012, and 550 DAS users in 2013!
Hopefully one argument Disney will make in this lawsuit is that the DAS passes have made wait times less for EVERYONE, including actual DAS users. Yes, the numbers here are standby wait times, but in order to have lower standby wait times, you also need lower fastpass wait times!
rob0519
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum with your first post.
You said you used to work at one such attraction, which I assume is attraction "x". Which attraction would this be? An average wait time of 41-45 minutes on Chirstmas Eve and Christmas seems a bit low for a major attraction and how is it you still have access to this data? Would the numbers trend the same for say Peter Pan and Splash Mountain as they do for attraction "x"?
One last question, as a former attraction cast member maybe you can help me understand how Disney kept track of the number of GACs used per ride. We would present our card to the person at the fastpass line and they would wave us through. The card wasn't scanned or collected, so how was that number recorded? Thanks.
Thanks. I'd rather not say which attraction it was, just because I don't know who reads these forums and I'd rather stay anonymous. But it is considered an E ticket attraction. Remember, those were average wait times over the course of a whole day. I know - still not as high as you'd expect for an E ticket during Christmas, but if you think about how that could be possible, you could probably figure it out.
Anyway, the numbers were collected by the person as the merge point. They had one of those hand counters, and every time someone showed a GAC, they counted the number of people coming through on that particular GAC. If it said 6, but only 4 were riding, they would count 4. If it said 6 and 8 came through, they would count 8.
Anyway, the numbers were collected by the person as the merge point. They had one of those hand counters, and every time someone showed a GAC, they counted the number of people coming through on that particular GAC. If it said 6, but only 4 were riding, they would count 4. If it said 6 and 8 came through, they would count 8.
rob0519
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I guess I never really looked for something as simple as a hand counter. Always wondered how they kept track. Totally understand the need to say anonymous and yes, over a 12-14 hour day those times do make sense.
DisneyParker
Member
Absolutely! But when referring in generalities and to a group of people whose identities are unknown, conventional usage calls for person-first language. Hooray for your son for being an advocate for himself!This is actually a hot button topic in the community.
https://autisticadvocacy.org/identity-first-language/
I am a social worker, so I understand the intention behind the person first language. However, I think it needs to be recognized that there are people on the spectrum who prefer identifying themselves as "autistic." My son calls himself an "Aspie" and I will always advocate for his desire to identity himself whatever he feels is appropriate.
Not MK!
Yes, it is one of the four parks at WDW (but not MK). I'm not trying to being coy or difficult or anything, I just don't know if I could get in trouble!
cw1982
Well-Known Member
That brings up another point... how do we know what part of any measurable difference in wait times is due to DAS and what is due to FP+? IMO, FP+ impacts more people directly, and therefore probably has the biggest overall impact if anything, but that's just a hunch.
Goofnut1980
Well-Known Member
No I didn't read it that way at all.