Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[DougK]

Eddie,

I'm just another admirer who wants to say thank you for your time on these boards lately. It has been great to hear directly from someone such as yourself. I think it was pretty classy of Disney to invite you to Marty's party since you haven't worked there in so long. I met Marty once and he is truly a wonderful person.

Thanks again for sharing!

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Herb Ryman told me a story once, that Jack Lindquist, DL's original marketing guru didn't recall when I told it, but it got a big laugh anyway.

One New Year's Eve at DL, instead of Tinker Bell at midnight they decided to fly a "New Years Eve" Baby down the cable over the fireworks when the clock struck twelve, and of course, they used a midget in a diaper made up as a baby with a ribbon, etc. as it was high up.

So when the time came, they slid the "baby" down the wire but he slowed to a stop halfway out just dangling over Fantasyland! the spotlight held on him but he was stuck for some reason. Realizing he was not going to go any further, the "baby" matured in about two seconds and started cussing "to get him down!" Imagine "Baby Herman" over the Castle! Herb told it better than I.

There were lots of fun DL moments trying to figure out "what worked" in those days.

Heh. :lol: I'm sure that went over well...When was this?

 

[HMF]

Alice Davis, costumer and wife of Marc Davis was there. She told me that the "gilted bride" story in the HM was something Walt didn't want.
.

Did she say whether or not the Black-Widow Bride was okay? BTW' Eddie can you tell if the Fantasyland plans are real or fabricated?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie,
I think it was pretty classy of Disney to invite you to Marty's party since you haven't worked there in so long. I met Marty once and he is truly a wonderful person.

I thought so. I was made to feel a part of that family again and so were many others who had gone who left like me. Marty had quite the guest list. There were some internal corporate parties too from what I hear. To me, it was really special, It was like graduating HS and going back 10 years later to find out that the combination to your old locker still works!

 

[MousDad]

Sure, as you know, I can't. Anything that would be confidential or anything like that is off limits for me, and I avoid asking my friends about things like that as it can harm our friendship and compromise them if it leaks. The less I know the better! Stories from the past and stuff like that, or discussing design or whatever is more of why I'm here and to give you guys a sense of what Imagineers really go through to do these kinds of projects. Those plans are pretty cool and so since they're out there we can chat about them for sure. I think I gave the wrong impression with the "My yes", thing. The "oh my yes", wasn't about any plans as I didn't know about them myself till seeing them on that blog, post festivities. It was "oh my yes", in reference to having a great time. Sorry about that, thanks for understanding.

Of course you shouldn't, nor would it be expected.:wave:

I did read into that "oh my yes" that the plans were the talk of the party, though. :lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Did she say whether or not the Black-Widow Bride was okay? BTW' Eddie can you tell if the Fantasyland plans are real or fabricated?

I think she was talking Disneyland and the original show, not the upgrade. After Walt died, she said there those who (she would not name) that kept pushing for that storyline until it made it in. Interesting.

As for the plans, they look intentional, if that's what you mean. Anything can be faked I guess. Imagineers hours are precious and expensive so I don't think the plans were made as a decoy. The thing about Disney is that things can go pretty far in the concept and design phases and look real, but until you see tractors digging it can always get shelved at the last second. I spent years and millions on designs taking things right to the end, even with running vehicle mock ups and still had them shelved in the end. I'd be more concerned about that.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Heh. :lol: I'm sure that went over well...When was this?

I gave that some thought, it may have been the early sixties as the overhead cable and Tinker Bell came about with the Matterhorn in 1959. I'm sure the baby idea was nixed after that.

 

[bstiles]

All I keep picturing is Hank the angry drunken dwarf from howard stern

 

[Missing20K]

As for the plans, they look intentional, if that's what you mean. Anything can be faked I guess. Imagineers hours are precious and expensive so I don't think the plans were made as a decoy. The thing about Disney is that things can go pretty far in the concept and design phases and look real, but until you see tractors digging it can always get shelved at the last second. I spent years and millions on designs taking things right to the end, even with running vehicle mock ups and still had them shelved in the end. I'd be more concerned about that.

Aside from the obvious reasons, didn't it ever get frustrating? Speaking from personal experience, and that is only my educational experience, it can be unbelievably frustrating to spend hours upon hours upon days and weeks on a project, only to have a superior (or professor) come along on a crit with a big red sharpie and just ruin your drawings. I can imagine the frustration would be exponentially larger when you are working on larger, more "real" projects than anything I have done.

There must have been times when you thought to yourself, "why did I just spend the last 11 months designing this attraction, only to have management or an executive, say 'thanks, but no thanks' ?" Do you just take pride in the actual work, and not necessarily the end result, that may or may not happen? This is what other designers have suggested to me in the past. And, the perseverance WDI employees must obviously possess is truly inspiring for aspiring designers.

 

[janoimagine]

Aside from the obvious reasons, didn't it ever get frustrating? Speaking from personal experience, and that is only my educational experience, it can be unbelievably frustrating to spend hours upon hours upon days and weeks on a project, only to have a superior (or professor) come along on a crit with a big red sharpie and just ruin your drawings. I can imagine the frustration would be exponentially larger when you are working on larger, more "real" projects than anything I have done.

There must have been times when you thought to yourself, "why did I just spend the last 11 months designing this attraction, only to have management or an executive, say 'thanks, but no thanks' ?" Do you just take pride in the actual work, and not necessarily the end result, that may or may not happen? This is what other designers have suggested to me in the past. And, the perseverance WDI employees must obviously possess is truly inspiring for aspiring designers.

Having worked in and around the creative communities I can add one little thing to this, and that is a good idea is never truly dead. I worked in advertising for years as an AD doing concepts for any and every product our agency had as an account. My former partner and I wrote a spot that we knew was gold. We spent the next 5 years going back and forth with different clients trying to greenlight the spot. Eventually we won out, but it was a long and often frustrating road.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Mourning the loss of a concept

Aside from the obvious reasons, didn't it ever get frustrating?. I can imagine the frustration would be exponentially larger when you are working on larger, more "real" projects than anything I have done.

There must have been times when you thought to yourself, "why did I just spend the last 11 months designing this attraction, only to have management or an executive, say 'thanks, but no thanks' ?" Do you just take pride in the actual work, and not necessarily the end result, that may or may not happen? This is what other designers have suggested to me in the past. And, the perseverance WDI employees must obviously possess is truly inspiring for aspiring designers.

It gets personal and really depressing. In my mind I can visualize these projects finished. I'm riding the thing in my head. When it dies, so do those visuals. It's hard. Especially when you have to break it to the team you just killed to build a presentation that went sour. They trust you to sell it and make it real. I had to recast a team for Indy at DL and that was hard as the Ride was still a "go" but management did not want the concept the team had done. I was brought in to start over with a new group. Tough audience. They actually had a day for that team to discuss and "mourn" the loss of the concept! It was actually called that. So the depression is team wide.

DLP MSUSA was the 1920's theme and we spent a year designing it, till I returned from vacation and it was killed. That was tough to take. Eisner reconsidered two years later and said he was wrong and we should have done it! (I wanted to shoot myself as we were still working on the 1890s version and had not opened yet!)

Some projects should not get built and guess what, maybe the boss is right and your ride isn't worth doing. You have to be humble enough to recognize that every idea isn't destined to be built. But...sometimes another project competes for the same $$ or location and a rival "poisons the well" with a rumor or an outright allegation that your project will actually cost double, or can't be done, is bad show, etc. just to kill it and create doubt. That creates more drama and if you lose because of that, deep divisions and suspicion. I had that happen on my first project, where a senior person came in and threw out a huge number before my work was even estimated. They said it was a waste of time to estimate and so it was killed without ever having a chance. I was wary of that guy ever since. Losing without reason is more depressing that just losing. I try to let go of the product and not be so attached, but in the end, it's why what you do is good because it IS personal.

I used to kid people in my bad Austrian accent, that I was unkillable like the "Terminator". If you hate one idea "I'll be back" with another and another..and so like getting a new puppy when "Old Blue" dies, you just have to move on, it's the best remedy, and save those ideas for another day.

Thanks for giving me the chance to vent!!! I feel much better now.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Having worked in and around the creative communities I can add one little thing to this, and that is a good idea is never truly dead. I worked in advertising for years as an AD doing concepts for any and every product our agency had as an account. My former partner and I wrote a spot that we knew was gold. We spent the next 5 years going back and forth with different clients trying to greenlight the spot. Eventually we won out, but it was a long and often frustrating road.

EXCELLENT point. And bad ideas usually peter out and don't get built.

 

[HMF]

It gets personal and really depressing. In my mind I can visualize these projects finished. I'm riding the thing in my head. When it dies, so do those visuals. It's hard. Especially when you have to break it to the team you just killed to build a presentation that went sour. They trust you to sell it and make it real. I had to recast a team for Indy at DL and that was hard as the Ride was still a "go" but management did not want the concept the team had done. I was brought in to start over with a new group. Tough audience. They actually had a day for that team to discuss and "mourn" the loss of the concept! It was actually called that. So the depression is team wide.

DLP MSUSA was the 1920's theme and we spent a year designing it, till I returned from vacation and it was killed. That was tough to take. Eisner reconsidered two years later and said he was wrong and we should have done it! (I wanted to shoot myself as we were still working on the 1890s version and had not opened yet!)

Some projects should not get built and guess what, maybe the boss is right and your ride isn't worth doing. You have to be humble enough to recognize that every idea isn't destined to be built. But...sometimes another project competes for the same $$ or location and a rival "poisons the well" with a rumor or an outright allegation that your project will actually cost double, or can't be done, is bad show, etc. just to kill it and create doubt. That creates more drama and if you lose because of that, deep divisions and suspicion. I had that happen on my first project, where a senior person came in and threw out a huge number before my work was even estimated. They said it was a waste of time to estimate and so it was killed without ever having a chance. I was wary of that guy ever since. Losing without reason is more depressing that just losing. I try to let go of the product and not be so attached, but in the end, it's why what you do is good because it IS personal.

I used to kid people in my bad Austrian accent, that I was unkillable like the "Terminator". If you hate one idea "I'll be back" with another and another..and so like getting a new puppy when "Old Blue" dies, you just have to move on, it's the best remedy, and save those ideas for another day.

Thanks for giving me the chance to vent!!! I feel much better now.

What's funny is I was personally designing a Weather Attraction for Epcot for use when I (hopefully) get into WDI. However after several drawings and a half-written script for an immersive SSE-style ride-thru Attraction on the history of weather' the more I thought about it the less feasible it seemed and I gave up on it. I am still designing a weather pavillion but much more scaled back so I guess you could say I am already training myself in the feasibility-rejection scenario.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

What's funny is I was personally designing a Weather Attraction for Epcot for use when I (hopefully) get into WDI. However after several drawings and a half-written script for an immersive SSE-style ride-thru Attraction on the history of weather the more I thought about it the less feasible it seemed and I gave up on it. I am still designing a weather pavillion but much more scaled back so I guess you could say I am already training myself in the feasibility-rejection scenario.

Don't give up, i don't want you to do that prematurely, you have to fight for it, let them kill it!

 

[jt04]

I don't have any inside knowledge, but the plan reminded me of Herb Ryman's original DL rendering of the overall park showing a Castle with attached "castle walls" surrounding it. Good idea.

Thanks. Seeing block walls on top of tents :lol: always bugged me until now. Now I see the walls are behind the tents. I think there is some substance to my theory. Maybe when they revise the Imagineering guide to the MK we will get more details on FL's history.

As for 20k. Who knows? In the 60's the Subs were popular as an E Ticket on the park menu, maybe they thought it was a must? It's situated to the NW of the Castle as the Subs are in DL, maybe as a transition between Tomorrowland and Fantasyland. The lagoon kind of forces it to be on the outskirts. The problem with Fantasyland at WDW was that they put IASW in a place that prevented growth and locked everything in. Now it seems they are breaking free of that.

Yes it does! And there is a reason for me asking. Needless to say there are a lot of people still upset with the removal of 20K, but I think it is possible there was a long term plan to fully realize WDW's FL eventually and it was decided 20K was not part of that future. But the idea of a Jules Verne/Mysterious Island/Discovery Bay type land could still be alive and well at another park. I'm not "fishing" for information. I just think fans sometimes need to look at the larger possibilities behind a decision such as the 20K removal. I even theorize the playground that replaced it (there are still people angry about that) may have been a test of materials that will be incorporated in the new Enchanted Forest "realm" of the new Fantasyland.

Thanks again.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I know you referenced adding a premium to the budget of certain jobs (I believe you referenced Tony Baxter in this process). How often do you put together projects with effects that you know will be cut?

I could imagine a proposal, "well here we have this effect that will cost $10 million", knowing full well that you have another effect that's slightly worse but half the cost that can be used as a replacement when the budget gets slashed?

Without causing your in bin to get completely flooded, what is the best approach for gaining entry into Disney Imagineering? My passion stems from going to WDW since birth, and is placated by role playing games like Roller Coaster Tycoon and Zoo Tycoon. My background is business, not engineering so my interest would be operational effeciency. Things like improving guest flow (be it in the pathways or on a ride), as well as streamlining operations would better describe my skillset. I know Disney employs people like this as so much of what they do is incredibly effecient, but what approach is there to a young adult getting that foot in the door?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I know you referenced adding a premium to the budget of certain jobs (I believe you referenced Tony Baxter in this process). How often do you put together projects with effects that you know will be cut?

I could imagine a proposal, "well here we have this effect that will cost $10 million", knowing full well that you have another effect that's slightly worse but half the cost that can be used as a replacement when the budget gets slashed?

Without causing your in bin to get completely flooded, what is the best approach for gaining entry into Disney Imagineering?

I didn't mean to single Tony out, but it was a funny story. I've had to leave a "red herring" in there so they will think they cut something, yes. Like a wish list. I don't know if it is still played, but the game of padding the scope/budget because you expect to have it cut (no matter how prudent you were up front) existed when I was there. Tony gave me a great piece of advice once about some show element that I really wanted and he noticed it was not "attached" or integrated with anything (i.e. a wishing well). He said that it needed to be part of something else because it was too isolated and easy to "pluck out". He was soooo right! Sometimes late in the game (even construction) they can make a "clean cut", meaning it does not affect anything else and it just goes. So today there is no Streetcar Stop Canopy in DLP MSUSA as it lived alone in Town Square! CUT! cleanly and painlessly. It's too costly and messy to cut things that are part of a bigger element, meaning there is no savings so they look elsewhere.

I made the mistake of being "real" up front and only asking for what we needed, only to lose things as a part of a learned process of negotiation as they expected me to be padding stuff. I think that the idea that they would let you run free with ideas and let you go with it pretty far, then tell you the budget after and rip apart the Ferrari to hit the cost of a Fusion. Tell me it's a Fusion and I'll start there and try for the Ferrari! Extremely costly both emotionally and fiscally. If we could just ask for what we need and not play that "pad and cut" game things would be less expensive overall.Maybe it's different now, after all ten years is a long time. It's about trust between the teams. In my own business we try and keep it simple and make the costs known up front (Rivera was that way), there is less "value engineering" late in the game, and we do things for way less.

As to getting into WDI, I worked at other theme companies doing design so they could picture me as an Imagineer (rejected twice! then hired away). Tony hired me from seeing Vernian images from another project. In business you may do business plans or feasibilities for Universal or some company first perhaps. This site has the best advice IMHO.

www.themedattraction.com

 

[HMF]

jt04' Do we know when the revised Imagineering Field Guides come out? On the other hand' the sequel to Kevin Rafferty's book is coming out soon. You never know if they might leak some of the plans.

 

[Scar Junior]

Herb Ryman told me a story once, that Jack Lindquist, DL's original marketing guru didn't recall when I told it, but it got a big laugh anyway.

One New Year's Eve at DL, instead of Tinker Bell at midnight they decided to fly a "New Years Eve" Baby down the cable over the fireworks when the clock struck twelve, and of course, they used a midget in a diaper made up as a baby with a ribbon, etc. as it was high up.

So when the time came, they slid the "baby" down the wire but he slowed to a stop halfway out just dangling over Fantasyland! the spotlight held on him but he was stuck for some reason. Realizing he was not going to go any further, the "baby" matured in about two seconds and started cussing "to get him down!" Imagine "Baby Herman" over the Castle! Herb told it better than I.

There were lots of fun DL moments trying to figure out "what worked" in those days.

Haha! Wow, that would have been awesome to see!



Eddie, I was wondering if you ever had projects that you didn't really dig. Perhaps you wanted to work on another project or didn't agree it was the best direction to take. I work in independent film and sometimes it's hard to do your best when you disagree with the decisions of another producer or director or whoever.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I was wondering if you ever had projects that you didn't really dig. Perhaps you wanted to work on another project or didn't agree it was the best direction to take.

Having to spend 5 years building the wrong Main Street in France would be one, yes (1920's one was approved then killed). I had to make it something I could get behind so we slowly tweaked it into something more than the carbon copy of WDW they told us to build. It could have been so much more. That was how I coped with having to replicate something I didn't believe in. Looking back, it is probably the project that most people like the best of anything I've been a part of. And because of the frustration of being caged into something that was not even classed as a "land", we took it on as an opportunity to make what we were allowed to redo, the most evolved MSUSA of them all in spite of it's vanilla intent. There is lots of story depth and richness in it. Who knew?

The other project was a ride system for TDL (which I was the design SVP for) that they wanted to lift from DL and I didn't think it was a good enough ride to be an E. I lost the vocal battle. I was forced to develop it on their turf and re-theme it at their cost and did so "under protest" which was made known.
Marty actually endorsed my position in the end with a letter to them, but since they paid for the design they wanted to install it anyway. So I was in "deep dole whip" at WDI as the lone dissenter as the prevailing wisdom was "so what? give it to them anyway". No one wants to kill a project, good or bad. By the time they came out to ride the DL version it had broken down so many times that it was to be closed for good, so they gave up and realized that maybe it was not such a good attraction to copy. So yes, that was an example of having to do something you don't believe in but I felt good about them not wasting their money.