Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[TP2000]

In an panel discussion with Tony some time ago (Disney Family Museum?), he said his biggest regret was Rocket Rods and then blamed Timur Galen, an exec who cut the budget for it's demise. I was not there, so this is second hand. I know at the time Paul Pressler was very involved in creative decisions, even on my projects. Then I quit.

That certainly was an interesting time in Disneyland history, wasn't it? And it's always fascinated me how that era in Disneyland history coincided with the creation and rise of the Internet fan community, from the alt.disney.disneyland Usenet days of Light Magic in '97, to the budding message boards and privately owned fansites of DCA's opening in early '01.

You have to wonder if the online Disneyland fan base would have developed the same way if the 1996-2003 era was a shining, golden age instead of an age marked more by it's failures? Hindsight is 20-20, but it seems the Anaheim and Burbank leadership teams of that era only fueled the beast that became the Disneyland-centric Internet fansite.

WDW sites like this one are little pussycats compared to some of the Disneyland sites when they really get fired up about a perceived shortcoming in the parks. :lol:

 

[HMF]

In an panel discussion with Tony some time ago (Disney Family Museum?), he said his biggest regret was Rocket Rods and then blamed Timur Galen, an exec who cut the budget for it's demise. I was not there, so this is second hand. I know at the time Paul Pressler was very involved in creative decisions, even on my projects. Then I quit.

So' you quit because of Paul Pressler?

 

[HMF]

WDW sites like this one are little pussycats compared to some of the Disneyland sites when they really get fired up about a perceived shortcoming in the parks. :lol:

That is slowly changing though.

 

[TP2000]

That is slowly changing though.

That's probably for the best, in my opinion.

 

[SeaCastle]

I don't know what it is (maybe because their castle is smaller :lol: :lookaroun) but Disneyland fans are very quick to jump on WDW (or Disneyland) on whatever shortcomings there be. I would imagine Disneyland management listens to their crowd more because locals constitute some 60% of their visitors. Money talks. If WDW had thousands of families that visit WDW annually complain (I mean that in a good way) as much as Disneyland's fans did, we'd probably see more changes. Seeing that the average WDW visitor doesn't see the wool being pulled over their eyes in terms of quality and value, I doubt management would listen to fanboy rumblings.

 

[Mansion Butler]

That certainly was an interesting time in Disneyland history, wasn't it? And it's always fascinated me how that era in Disneyland history coincided with the creation and rise of the Internet fan community, from the alt.disney.disneyland Usenet days of Light Magic in '97, to the budding message boards and privately owned fansites of DCA's opening in early '01.

That was the first time I went to Disneyland, and it was so awful to me as a child of Disney World that I never, ever wanted to go back.

I did go back years later and it was like a different park.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Graves Hotels

Why do you see Hotel New York as a failure?

While I hate their positioning behind EPCOT Center, but I find something compelling about the Swan and Dolphin, particularly the latter.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

So' you quit because of Paul Pressler?

It's more complicated than that. I was offered opportunities in the internet and in creating series television while seeing the WDI Blue Sky budget getting slimmer and that parks like DCA were kind of the new way of doing business. So if I was to jump ship, I would not miss much till things changed. The goal was to reinvent myself creatively in new mediums beyond parks that would make me more valuable and relevant in the coming years. Looking back, it was very rough at times, but I've learned to do many more things and most of them digital, and in the end that area has been where the clients are, not theme parks. Projects like Rivera have changed the stylistic perception of who I am and what I can do. Paul was making WDI over in his way and I saw that as less opportunity to perform, that's all.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Why do you see Hotel New York as a failure?

While I hate their positioning behind EPCOT Center, but I find something compelling about the Swan and Dolphin, particularly the latter.

I don't hate them either, in fact when inside they are interesting spaces. I guess it's not the what, it's the where. They are visual intrusions to EPCOT WS and Eisner was warned of this by showing him a model, but blew the advice off and later upon seeing what he had done, wanted to build a huge berm to hide them from the park. The other thing is that IMHO they don't work in the close up. There is no intrinsic quality to them, they are like temporary blown stucco buildings. You can't take them seriously because they don't believe in themselves. If they were faced in marble or some other quality material and the craftsmanship was there, you might buy into it. You do buy into the Boardwalk as done by Robert Stern. The Geary designed Disney Hall is wild, yet the sheets of metal are beautiful as materials and you take it more seriously because it has an integrity of execution to it. The Graves stuff to me is very World's Fair and flat looking. Disney at it's essence is timeless. Just an opinion.

 

[HMF]

I don't hate them either, in fact when inside they are interesting spaces. I guess it's not the what, it's the where. They are visual intrusions to EPCOT WS and Eisner was warned of this by showing him a model, but blew the advice off and later upon seeing what he had done, wanted to build a huge berm to hide them from the park. The other thing is that IMHO they don't work in the close up. There is no intrinsic quality to them, they are like temporary blown stucco buildings. You can't take them seriously because they don't believe in themselves. If they were faced in marble or some other quality material and the craftsmanship was there, you might buy into it. The Geary designed Disney Hall is wild, yet the sheets of metal are beautiful as materials and you take it more seriously because it has an integrity of execution to it. The Graves stuff to me is very World's Fair and flat looking. Disney at it's essence is timeless. Just an opinion.

Roy E. Disney apparently never liked the Graves-designed Team Disney building.

 

[lazyboy97o]

They are visual intrusions to EPCOT WS and Eisner was warned of this but blew the advice off and later upon seeing what he had done, wanted to build a huge berm to hide them. The other thing is that they don't work in the close up. There is no intrinsic quality to them, they are like temporary blown stucco buildings. You can't take them seriously because they don't believe in themselves. If they were faced in marble or some other quality material and the craftsmanship was there, you might buy into it. The Geary designed Disney Hall is a wild, yet the sheets of metal are beautiful as materials and you take it seriously because it has an integrity of execution to it. The Graves stuff to me is very World's Fair and temporary looking. Disney at it's essence is timeless. Just an opinion.

I have repeatedly heard another story regarding the origins of the Swan and Dolphin and am wondering if you if there is any truth to it. The story goes that the contracts that gave Starwood (I think a different company at the time) the rights to build behind EPCOT Center were drawn and signed before Eisner came aboard. Their original plans were for standard hotel towers that would have encroached upon World Showcase. Eisner was able to convince them to let Graves design the hotels, with Disney footing a significant portion of the bill and also gaining a say in the final design. It was after all this that Eisner then refused to push Graves on the height of the Swan and Dolphin.

The "not believing in themselves" seems to be the way of Disney's Walt Disney World accommodations these days. The Value Resorts and Themed Rooms at the Moderate Resorts are all more furniture and decor collections than they are enveloping experiences.

Your criticisms sound as thought they would fit a significant percentage of Graves' portfolio.

 

[AEfx]

This thread is so bad for my time management. Not only do I have to keep up with all the great info, then I have to spend at least 30 seconds looking at how cute Eddie is...

 

[Cosmic Commando]

My understanding of the hotel ordeal comes mostly from Realityland, I think. At the time Eisner was hired, Disney recognized the demand and space for more hotel rooms on property, but the suits in charge at the time had lost their appetite for operating hotels. They saw themselves as a theme park company and not a hotel outfit. That's where the deal with whatever hotel company (I also think it was Starwood under a different name back then) came from to build and operate more hotels on-property.

However, Eisner showed up and basically said that if there's money to be made from hotel rooms on WDW property, Disney should be the ones pocketing those profits. He was looking for a way out of this preexisting contract, so he offered up the sweet spot of land behind EPCOT as a bargaining chip. Disney didn't pay very much for the Swan and Dolphin at all; I think David Koenig wrote that Disney had creative control, but the hotel company paid for it.

Eisner was big on horizontal integration... using Disney's might to spread into any industry that had some money for the taking: the vast expansion of on-property lodging, publishing, music, cruise ships, mall retail, ABC, go.com... not that it always worked. But at least in the 80's, we got the Grand Floridian instead of what most likely would have been a generic hotel.

 

[Slowjack]

I have repeatedly heard another story regarding the origins of the Swan and Dolphin and am wondering if you if there is any truth to it. The story goes that the contracts that gave Starwood (I think a different company at the time) the rights to build behind EPCOT Center were drawn and signed before Eisner came aboard. Their original plans were for standard hotel towers that would have encroached upon World Showcase. Eisner was able to convince them to let Graves design the hotels, with Disney footing a significant portion of the bill and also gaining a say in the final design. It was after all this that Eisner then refused to push Graves on the height of the Swan and Dolphin.

Well, according to "Building a Dream," by Beth Dunlop, the original contract with the Tishman allowed for two hotels of his own design to be built in the Lake Buena Vista area near the other non-Disney owned hotels. Eisner didn't like the deal and tried to back out. Tishman sued. The new deal gave Disney the design but gave Tishman the new location by Epcot.

As for the height, the design eventually turned into a competition with Graves, Robert Venturi, and Alan Lapidus (who had done the original LBV designs for Tishman). "One rule of the competition was that no building could be higher than eight stories, so that it couldn't be seen from other points in Epcot..." Graves decided to ignore the rule, and Eisner, apparently in his desire to be seen as a modern Medici, allowed Graves to talk him into the monster buildings.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I have repeatedly heard another story regarding the origins of the Swan and Dolphin and am wondering if you if there is any truth to it. The story goes that the contracts that gave Starwood (I think a different company at the time) the rights to build behind EPCOT Center were drawn and signed before Eisner came aboard. Their original plans were for standard hotel towers that would have encroached upon World Showcase. Eisner was able to convince them to let Graves design the hotels, with Disney footing a significant portion of the bill and also gaining a say in the final design. It was after all this that Eisner then refused to push Graves on the height of the Swan and Dolphin.

The "not believing in themselves" seems to be the way of Disney's Walt Disney World accommodations these days. The Value Resorts and Themed Rooms at the Moderate Resorts are all more furniture and decor collections than they are enveloping experiences.

Your criticisms sound as thought they would fit a significant percentage of Graves' portfolio.

There is truth to this. Tishman had the rights to build hotels on property and Eisner wanted them to be something less than ordinary so he went for the "Starchitect" approach. Not sure on who footed the bill.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well, according to "Building a Dream," by Beth Dunlop, the original contract with the Tishman allowed for two hotels of his own design to be built in the Lake Buena Vista area near the other non-Disney owned hotels. Eisner didn't like the deal and tried to back out. Tishman sued. The new deal gave Disney the design but gave Tishman the new location by Epcot.

As for the height, the design eventually turned into a competition with Graves, Robert Venturi, and Alan Lapidus (who had done the original LBV designs for Tishman). "One rule of the competition was that no building could be higher than eight stories, so that it couldn't be seen from other points in Epcot..." Graves decided to ignore the rule, and Eisner, apparently in his desire to be seen as a modern Medici, allowed Graves to talk him into the monster buildings.

Monster buildings. This version seems the closest to my recollection. I remember the competition and the other designs were worse. The same competition happened in Paris for those hotels which were not part of the deal. Imagine if Paris would have had hotels of the quality level of Wilderness Lodge? The themed hotels there are so diluted by comparison. So to close out the point, CEO's and other execs can have a big effect on the creative outcome.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Roy E. Disney apparently never liked the Graves-designed Team Disney building.

You have to like his style. I happen to like it, just not at the monster building size and not in WDW. The Team Disney building is interesting and well done. As it's not in a themed environment it succeeds to me and the furnishings and quality are there. It now captures those boom years of Michael. The inside is extremely hard to navigate as it's offices are an endless series of isolated compartments. You are not allowed to change pictures on the walls or anything without permission so it all looks the same. People sometimes complain of getting lost in it. I thought this could have been an inside joke about the real "team" Disney. Graves designs seem dated to me and so I'm almost nostalgic about the TD building now.

 

[WEDwaydatamover]

Since we are now shifting gears to Disney's hotels, I was curious to see what Eddie thinks of the new Disney Vacation Club hotel now adjacent to the Contemporary Resort serving as both Tomorrowland backdrop and odd neighbor to the A-Frame.

Out of fairness I have never stayed at the DVC and I'm sure it's a fine hotel. But, just... Why?

Welton Becket must be spinning.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Music on SM

I listened to the new music they have on your SM and it is off board. Anyone heard it in person yet? Let us know what you think. I heard it here. It's kind of Techno meets Nintendo. Interesting, but you'd have to sense it in the ride to know.


http://micechat.com/forums/blogs/we...;-power-rangers-convention;-indian-ruins.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Since we are now shifting gears to Disney's hotels, I was curious to see what Eddie thinks of the new Disney Vacation Club hotel now adjacent to the Contemporary Resort serving as both Tomorrowland backdrop and odd neighbor to the A-Frame.

Out of fairness I have never stayed at the DVC and I'm sure it's a fine hotel. But, just... Why?

Welton Becket must be spinning.

I have not been to see it, only in images. It does not seem very imaginative, but it depends on how it is seen in context to the Contemporary. It may be a fitting soft backdrop, and that could work.