Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[The Empress Lilly]

I've had the good fortune of having ridden Pirates in DLP, DL and the MK. I think there is not much to chose between them. The MK might come last indeed, but it is not by any wide margin at all.

All three rides have something going for them, it is an exaggeration to describe MK Pirates as merely an inferior experience. There is magic and sensibility to WDW's Pirates, great placemaking and continuation of story and atmosphere inside and outside the attraction. It is a fantastic experience in it's own right, unique (as the others are too), that I think has been too easily dismissed, especially on the internet, as merely inferior.

I see it as a different interpretation of the same thing the basic moral of the caverns is/was what good is all the treasure if you are dead and unable to use it. During the infamous 1997 refurbishment they actually added a scene to the end using old World of Motion AA's of two pirates struggling to carry a heavy bag of jewels out of the Town Arsenal then you saw their skeletons and heard Dead Men Tell No Tales. The basic message was Don't be like them in the end your greed will destroy you. Of course that scene is gone now replaced with Captain Jack Sparrow relaxing in a room full of treasure and actually toasting piracy and it's many shiny rewards. Talk about reversing your morals.

Oh, how I love to see my thoughts in writing by somebody else.

Well said, and it is exactly what I've been thinking. I always liked the ending in WDW, it is a sort of...well not so much a lame moral lesson, as some fine thoughts about a Pirate's life, to add some depth to the story. You have action, loot and rum to your heart's content. But at the end of the day you're dead, and what have you really gained?
A pirate's life for me? Well there is a price to be paid.


The current ending is lame. No tension or ambiguity in the story. The good 'bad' guy wins and that's that. Boring!

 

[HMF]

I've had the good fortune of having ridden Pirates in DLP, DL and the MK. I think there is not much to chose between them. The MK might come last indeed, but it is not by any wide margin at all.

All three rides have something going for them, it is an exaggeration to describe MK Pirates as merely an inferior experience. There is magic and sensibility to WDW's Pirates, great placemaking and continuation of story and atmosphere inside and outside the attraction. It is a fantastic experience in it's own right, unique (as the others are too), that I think has been too easily dismissed, especially on the internet, as merely inferior.

Oh, how I love to see my thoughts in writing by somebody else.

Well said, and it is exactly what I've been thinking. I always liked the ending in WDW, it is a sort of...well not so much a lame moral lesson, as some fine thoughts about a Pirate's life, to add some depth to the story. You have action, loot and rum to your heart's content. But at the end of the day you're dead, and what have you really gained?
A pirate's life for me? Well there is a price to be paid.


The current ending is lame. No tension or ambiguity in the story. The good 'bad' guy wins and that's that. Boring!

I really don't understand the logic of the new Attraction script why would the mayor be hiding Captain Jack Sparrow if Jack wants to steal his towns treasure and furthermore why would he refuse to tell them if he is being drowned? I really think the script changes were unnecessary and really don't make any logical sense.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I really don't understand the logic of the new Attraction script why would the mayor be hiding Captain Jack Sparrow if Jack wants to steal his towns treasure and furthermore why would he refuse to tell them if he is being drowned? I really think the script changes were unnecessary and really don't make any logical sense.

I agree. I had really thought the attraction would simply become us seeing Captain Jack's crew acquiring the treasure that cursed the Black Pearl.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I see it as a different interpretation of the same thing the basic moral of the caverns is/was what good is all the treasure if you are dead and unable to use it. During the infamous 1997 refurbishment they actually added a scene to the end using old World of Motion AA's of two pirates struggling to carry a heavy bag of jewels out of the Town Arsenal then you saw their skeletons and heard Dead Men Tell No Tales. The basic message was Don't be like them in the end your greed will destroy you. Of course that scene is gone now replaced with Captain Jack Sparrow relaxing in a room full of treasure and actually toasting piracy and it's many shiny rewards. Talk about reversing your morals.

Yes. Great point, glad you mention it. I was very much behind placing that "message" on the falls way back when. There was lots of Politically Correct write in critique of the Pirates and their antics, and I had said to Marty Sklar who was the end recipient of the mail, that it could all be justified if you just showed recalled the opening where "Dead Men tell no Tales" and that crime does not essentially pay. Greed kills. they eventually did that. It worked. I was really saddened to see that they reversed it and glorified the idea of larceny and all the pirates terrorism. For a company that sees "piracy" as stealing movies and music, it's ironic to see them glamorize pillaging.

 

[HMF]

Yes. Great point, glad you mention it. I was very much behind placing that "message" on the falls way back when. There was lots of Politically Correct write in critique of the Pirates and their antics, and I had said to Marty Sklar who was the end recipient of the mail, that it could all be justified if you just showed recalled the opening where "Dead Men tell no Tales" and that crime does not essentially pay. Greed kills. they eventually did that. It worked. I was really saddened to see that they reversed it and glorified the idea of larceny and all the pirates terrorism. For a company that sees "piracy" as stealing movies and music, it's ironic to see them glamorize pillaging.

Eddie' If you can' can you ask Eric Jacobson about the logic behind the new script. It really makes no sense to me why the mayor of the town is hiding Captain Jack Sparrow a pirate from the other pirates at the risk of his own life and the fact that Jack wants to steal the Town Treasure. The logic escapes me.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie' If you can' can you ask Eric Jacobson about the logic behind the new script. It really makes no sense to me why the mayor of the town is hiding Captain Jack Sparrow a pirate from the other pirates at the risk of his own life and the fact that Jack wants to steal the Town Treasure. The logic escapes me.

I don't really see Eric Jacobsen much so I doubt I'll get an answer. I'm not sure they thought it through that far. I think he's just hiding in the town.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't really see Eric Jacobsen much so I doubt I'll get an answer. I'm not sure they thought it through that far. I think he's just hiding in the town.

How do these sort of logic skips end up in a final product? Are concepts and stories thought up and implemented that quickly?

 

[HMF]

I don't really see Eric Jacobsen much so I doubt I'll get an answer. I'm not sure they thought it through that far. I think he's just hiding in the town.

Some of the dialogue particularly from 7:55 to 10:19 in this video make me cringe every time I hear it because it really makes no sense and hurts my sensibilities every time I hear it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCnJ2BrbYIE

 

[lazyboy97o]

On the Themed Attraction website I noticed an article that said themed design is one of the last areas where hand drafting is still used. Did you find that hand drafting was still being used more predominately during your time at Walt Disney Imagineering? How about since you set up your own studio, does your studio still use hand drafting?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

On the Themed Attraction website I noticed an article that said themed design is one of the last areas where hand drafting is still used. Did you find that hand drafting was still being used more predominately during your time at Walt Disney Imagineering? How about since you set up your own studio, does your studio still use hand drafting?

Hand drafting was an "endangered species" back when I was at WDI 10 years ago. It's almost extinct now. There was a fight to get the graphic signage for MSUSA done by hand to betray the imperfection and soul of a century ago in the lettering. It costs more to do that. You can sense when something is a font and the type repeats and it's floating on a vast boring background. Main Street by it's story is a world that was made mostly by hand, and so be it. Back then there were a handful of fonts, not like now where there are good victorian choices. Hand drafting is an outward growth of a generation of designers that were versatile and could draw. they were educated and could draft capitals and moldings in a way that fit the divine proportion. Much of this education is lost today. The ease of clicking and dragging has bled out the need to know how to draw by hand and sketch. I run a 100% digital studio in many ways, but certain things are hand drawn even if they are on digital tablets like the Wacom Cintiq or scanned in and enhanced.

You never want to lose the soul in your work and the CAD system certainly can do that.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Hand drafting was an "endangered species" back when I was at WDI 10 years ago. It's almost extinct now. There was a fight to get the graphic signage for MSUSA done by hand to betray the imperfection and soul of a century ago in the lettering. It costs more to do that. You can sense when something is a font and the type repeats and it's floating on a vast boring background. Main Street by it's story is a world that was made mostly by hand, and so be it. Back then there were a handful of fonts, not like now where there are good victorian choices. Hand drafting is an outward growth of a generation of designers that were versatile and could draw. they were educated and could draft capitals and moldings in a way that fit the divine proportion. Much of this education is lost today. The ease of clicking and dragging has bled out the need to know how to draw by hand and sketch. I run a 100% digital studio in many ways, but certain things are hand drawn even if they are on digital tablets like the Wacom Cintiq or scanned in and enhanced.

You never want to lose the soul in your work and the CAD system certainly can do that.

Just the words to read as I sit here doing sections on trace paper.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Pencil Points

Just the words to read as I sit here doing sections on trace paper.

If you want to see just how accomplished the average draftsman was, get an old copy of "Pencil Points", the magazine for draftsman and architects. You will see beautiful hand sketches of details and villages. these guys were artists in their own right and brought that to every line they drew. I collect these old Mags as they inspire me to be more of a perfectionist. Here is a reprint of a voice lost in the stampede for aluminum siding.

http://www.amazon.com/Pencil-Points-Reader-Selected-1920-1943/dp/1568983522

http://books.google.com/books?id=Li...Bg#v=onepage&q=pencil points magazine&f=false

 

[Eddie Sotto]

How do these sort of logic skips end up in a final product? Are concepts and stories thought up and implemented that quickly?

Just to be clear, glossing it over is my own speculation, that does not mean they don't have a logical reason or backstory for the show.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Stuff to check out.

A very nice interview with Tony Baxter. He makes lots of good points that relate to the types of discussions we have here while relating how he got into WED. A must read for sure.

http://www.disunplugged.com/2010/07/03/imagineer-tony-baxter-the-importance-of-being-twelve/

Another great piece on the early travels of Herb Ryman and how those worldly experiences prepared him to add richness and depth to his Disney work. The posted sketches are stunning, and like great literature say more with less.

http://progresscityusa.com/2010/07/07/the-ryman-centennial-the-occidental-tourist/#respond


Al Lutz makes some interesting points as to how TDA is coping with Fast Passes, the APs, the success of outsourcing creative entertainment, and parking issues for the new WOC show. Frankly, I'v become more fascinated with the internal logistics of how they are dealing with the side effects, than the WOC show itself.

http://miceage.micechat.com/allutz/al070610a.htm

 

[thehowiet]

Frankly, I'v become more fascinated with the internal logistics of how they are dealing with the side effects, than the WOC show itself.

http://miceage.micechat.com/allutz/al070610a.htm

I am definitely with you here, Eddie. The whole operational and logistical aspect is very interesting to me as well. I love reading and hearing about all the details associated with the impact of the show, as this appears to be on a scale as grand as the show itself.

Thanks for sharing the links! Just in time for my lunch break....

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Almost at the end of today's Micechat Weekend update are recent pictures of the famed Santa Cruz Boardwalk, California's best remaining Seaside Amusement park. I went there as a small kid and recall how run down it was but it's 1940's arcade games and fun house were totally intact. Now it's redone and quite nice. You could really feel what those old parks were like back then. Forget the handicapped laws! Fun Houses were dangerous for anyone and lots of laughs. "The Lost Boys " movie was shot there. The 1923 "Giant Dipper" Coaster is great and they are probably the last park to have a real brass ring for you to grab from the Carousel. Great memories. I guess they have chocolate covered bacon in the Candy Shop. Hope they have Lipitor Smoothies!

http://micechat.com/forums/blogs/we...-cool-heat-tokyo;-hong-kong-tomorrowland.html

 

[Omnimover]

A couple of years ago, I spent an afternoon at the Santa Cruz boardwalk. At the time I had no idea of it's position as the last remaining seaside amusement of quality in California. I did enjoy the architecture and older attractions, but found it somewhat jarring to see them side-by-side with very modern equipment, signage, arcade cabinets, etc. Made me appreciate the artistry in carefully themed spaces. That being said, there is a certain charm to a locale that has evolved organically with changing public demands.

When we visited, it was the off season and many attractions/stores were closed, giving the place a very quiet, eerie feel for long stretches. Not to be dramatic, but you could definitely sense the ghosts in a place with that much history.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Euro Disney

We chat from time to time why Euro Disney was a fiscal nightmare. This link gives you a pretty factual and sometimes surprising summation of what went on, especially from a business perspective.


http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Euro-Disney-SCA-Company-History.html

 

[TP2000]

Al Lutz makes some interesting points as to how TDA is coping with Fast Passes, the APs, the success of outsourcing creative entertainment, and parking issues for the new WOC show. Frankly, I'v become more fascinated with the internal logistics of how they are dealing with the side effects, than the WOC show itself.

http://miceage.micechat.com/allutz/al070610a.htm

Count me in too. I agree that this Disneyland/DCA angle is a fascinating one, and Al Lutz has been doing a great job of explaining it all to us over the last year or so. Parking problems, AP program, operating hours, etc., etc., it's all a fascinating part of the most famous theme park on the planet.

If you had told someone back in the 20th century that Saturday would be the least crowded day of the week to visit Disneyland, they would have thought you were nuts. But that's the reality in 2010, and Lutz does a great job of explaining why.

Still, I don't envy TDA's ongoing need to manage this frenzy for World of Color and Disneyland USA from 1 Million Annual Passholders, arriving in their cars alone. :lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

A couple of years ago, I spent an afternoon at the Santa Cruz boardwalk. At the time I had no idea of it's position as the last remaining seaside amusement of quality in California. I did enjoy the architecture and older attractions, but found it somewhat jarring to see them side-by-side with very modern equipment, signage, arcade cabinets, etc. Made me appreciate the artistry in carefully themed spaces. That being said, there is a certain charm to a locale that has evolved organically with changing public demands.

When we visited, it was the off season and many attractions/stores were closed, giving the place a very quiet, eerie feel for long stretches. Not to be dramatic, but you could definitely sense the ghosts in a place with that much history.

Here's a link to Arcadia publishing's Santa Cruz history booklet (search keyword "santa cruz"). I like to look at the "Google book preview" as there are lots of historic pictures in it.

http://www.arcadiapublishing.com/index.html