Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
ADD- Attention Disney Disorder

I was having a hard time getting through all the comments because I began to lose attention. If you could add some exciting images of car crashes and explosions in between posts then maybe I could focus longer.:animwink:
 

KevinYee

Well-Known Member
Is it a sad commentary on the state of Disney that in thinking of this call to relentless action, my brain went first to Eddie's video find of a crazy alpine coaster, and second to how Disney could do it... and my next thought was that Disney would make it a simulator, if setting out to do an alpine coaster, not a real experience.

In a sense, Disney has always simulated rather than provide "the real." This is, in fact, the very mission statement of the parks (not stated as such, but you know what I mean). But I wonder if there's a spectrum of possibilities here, and the 2012 company is in a different place than the 1955 company on this point.
 

KevinYee

Well-Known Member
Eddie, can I lurch in a new direction?

While riding the PeopleMover Friday night (ahhh, I love being able to say that!), I was ruminating on your desire to always hit not "what's hot" but rather "what's next". Does this mean a good Imagineer is also a futurist?

Would the average Imagineer know the name Ray Kurzweil, for instance?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Is it a sad commentary on the state of Disney that in thinking of this call to relentless action, my brain went first to Eddie's video find of a crazy alpine coaster, and second to how Disney could do it... and my next thought was that Disney would make it a simulator, if setting out to do an alpine coaster, not a real experience.

In a sense, Disney has always simulated rather than provide "the real." This is, in fact, the very mission statement of the parks (not stated as such, but you know what I mean). But I wonder if there's a spectrum of possibilities here, and the 2012 company is in a different place than the 1955 company on this point.

Interesting topic. DAK was a step toward reality with live animals being the central attraction, even though the risk is that they may or may not be interested in consistently performing in "the show". I recall the old saying, "No one will ever pay to see a Lion yawn twice". It is true that they are wrapped in artifice, but essentially DAK took the grittier approach.

I think perhaps the best uses of "real" thrills versus "simulation" are the Water Parks. The theming is rich and the thrills can be pretty scary at times.

Part of the whole "real versus simulation" thing exists to create a "Fear minus Death equals Fun" scenario where you can't really fail. So the gravity is real, but you are always safe as the wheels are locked to the track. The Matterhorn is an "Alpine Coaster" only they built the Mountain.

As to your "different place" comment. Could it be that the issue in the back of your mind may be, "Are they more obsessed with over complicated simulations that ring hollow, than the highly satisfying real thrills of a cheap "Alpine Coaster?" Have we, in the effort to immerse and create illusion by simulating things that may be best left real, lost the "wow"? Sometimes you can inadvertently "sand off" the rough "real" edges of an idea by over complicating it, and when it's done there's no "wind in your hair" so to speak, it's become "hermetically sealed", "homogenized" fun.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie, can I lurch in a new direction?

While riding the PeopleMover Friday night (ahhh, I love being able to say that!), I was ruminating on your desire to always hit not "what's hot" but rather "what's next". Does this mean a good Imagineer is also a futurist?

Would the average Imagineer know the name Ray Kurzweil, for instance?

I wasn't aware of him. Interesting person though. Good find, thanks for that!

A good Imagineer needs to have an appetite for what the next tools of illusion might be. What techniques from the past, present, and just around the corner can you use to emotionally move the guest? If Tomorrowland or EPCOT is the topic, then yes, you need to be a futurist. You'd want to know that topic as much as you'd want to know Colonial America if you're doing Liberty Square. Technology is one of the tools used to make "magic" and provide the "illusion of life". So are 19th Century Magic techniques and optical illusion found in art. Remember, "Imagineering" by definition is the marriage of imagination and engineering, so you need to have an instinct for how to leverage technology in the realization of dreams.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I wasn't aware of him. Interesting person though. Good find, thanks for that!

A good Imagineer needs to have an appetite for what the next tools of illusion might be. What techniques from the past, present, and just around the corner can you use to emotionally move the guest? If Tomorrowland or EPCOT is the topic, then yes, you need to be a futurist. You'd want to know that topic as much as you'd want to know Colonial America if you're doing Liberty Square. Technology is one of the tools used to make "magic" and provide the "illusion of life". So are 19th Century Magic techniques and optical illusion found in art. Remember, "Imagineering" by definition is the marriage of imagination and engineering, so you need to have an instinct for how to leverage technology in the realization of dreams.

While I agree with this, I am going to relate this idea to certain movie directors and the way that modern movies are created.

Since CGI is the best special effects for certain things, we've seen 90% CGI movies come about, such as the Star Wars prequels, however you look at what Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings...a LOT of those movies were real sets or real miniatures built and IMO, you can tell the quality difference.

Or this idea to put it more bluntly:

george-lucas-1983-2005.jpg


So I think Imagineers need to remember that past effects often work quite well and we don't need TV screens all over the place and 3D glasses to make an attraction.

/me steps off soapbox
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Cgi

Excellent point. The technology of the moment is not the only way to entertain, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. It's funny when you look back at how some techniques or technologies become the "fad" or "flavor of the month" in effects. Fiber Optics comes to mind, every show was abusing them. then they faded out. Motion Based Simulators also come to mind as they were about to be the dominant ride system in the 90's. Now we are in the flavor of 3D projected attractions with CGI. As good a CGI is, you can still sense the difference between real and digital in areas of emotion. We have spent our entire lives subconsciously noticing expressions and body language in a way that things can look real but ring false. The eyes can say everything. Look at silent movies, it's all they had. Body language and expression. I still like the ensemble approach of many techniques applied to achieve an effect. Like a Swiss Army Knife, may the best tool win.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I'm not much of a fan of CGI, despite having grown up in the era when started out (mid 90's or so). Even as a child i wasn't crazy about it, despite Toy Story being one of my favorite movies at that time. There's just something a bit cold about it, i dunno. I really love movies that happen to use it exclusively, like pretty much all Pixar movies (except Cars 2 lol), as well as Philharmagic. I just don't care for the CGI itself. I'll tolerate and love the movie or show behind it, but i don't care for the animation itself much. Hard to explain why though, it just feels cold and strange at times. I'd really rather most animated movies at least be hand drawn. Tangled included (which i have mixed feelings about, but for other reasons besides the animation).

I'm also not a fan of rides that just use TV screens for most of the way through, just playing animated clips instead of using real scenery and animatronics. It strikes me as sort of a cheap cop-out. CA's Little Mermaid has a few of these scenes (the animation doesn't look too great either). The Seas with Nemo ride just uses clips for most of the ride. It's not bad if done sparingly and if the style of animation looks good, but i don't like rides using ONLY clips instead of using real animatronics or whatever. Feels half-a**ed IMO.

I am a huge fan of fiber optics however, i wouldn't lump it together in the same area as CGI. It serves to enhance already good looking scenes and adds to atmosphere. It looks stunning and i wish it were abused MORE if anything because of how awesome i personally think the effect can look. I don't think it's a relic of the past, it looks amazing in any age.

1994 Spaceship Earth's descent with the city of light looked stunning with it. Maelstrom has a brief scene where it's used to great effect above the three headed troll. And when i rode Paris' version of Peter Pan's Flight as a child, there was a particularly awesome moment where it's used for a pixie dust effect on the pirate ship near the end, which REALLY captured my imagination and wowed me (that's probably why it's my favorite version of the attraction).

So yeah. While it's treated as sort of a fad, i feel it should be retained as a standard effect for any age and not just discarded as a relic of the past. It never struck me as something of a fad as it looks really good. A "new" fad i'm also becoming a fan of are the digital projection mappings. Seen in attractions like California's Snow White ride as well as WDW's and CA's Magic Memories and You. I can get behind that as long as it's used logically and well done. I hope it's not eventually discarded, but improved.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I'm not much of a fan of CGI, despite having grown up in the era when started out (mid 90's or so). Even as a child i wasn't crazy about it, despite Toy Story being one of my favorite movies at that time. There's just something a bit cold about it, i dunno. I really love movies that happen to use it exclusively, like pretty much all Pixar movies (except Cars 2 lol), as well as Philharmagic. I just don't care for the CGI itself. I'll tolerate and love the movie or show behind it, but i don't care for the animation itself much. Hard to explain why though, it just feels cold and strange at times.

Probably the Uncanny Valley:

http://www.fuelyourmotionography.com/as-we-walk-through-the-uncanny-valley/
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Excellent point. The technology of the moment is not the only way to entertain, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. It's funny when you look back at how some techniques or technologies become the "fad" or "flavor of the month" in effects. Fiber Optics comes to mind, every show was abusing them. then they faded out. Motion Based Simulators also come to mind as they were about to be the dominant ride system in the 90's. Now we are in the flavor of 3D projected attractions with CGI. As good a CGI is, you can still sense the difference between real and digital in areas of emotion. We have spent our entire lives subconsciously noticing expressions and body language in a way that things can look real but ring false. The eyes can say everything. Look at silent movies, it's all they had. Body language and expression. I still like the ensemble approach of many techniques applied to achieve an effect. Like a Swiss Army Knife, may the best tool win.

Agreed. I can also understand there's often good reasons, or at least good intentions with those technologies.

3D movies and games like Toy Story Mania can be swapped out, or changed literally every few minutes, which can't be done with live animatronics, but it doesn't replace the awe of live animatronics either.

Motion Simulators take up a FRACTION of the space of conventional attractions, but they can make people sick. Now we're seeing progression where motion base with real live sets, true motion through a space AND film effects (Spiderman, for example) to create a stunning attraction, where even when you know how it all works, its mind-blowing.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member

Yeah i've heard about that, and i cannot agree with it for myself. My reasons for disliking it are extremely different from what they're saying. I don't mind the hyper realistic looking CGI from movies like Beowulf, Tron Legacy, Polar Express, and Avatar as much (if well done). The things that irritate me there are when the characters don't look realistic enough, despite trying to look realistic. They can usually create great looking models, but sometimes the eyes and mouths look deader than they should animation-wise (which isn't a flaw i would attribute to CGI, but rather a lack of animation on the creator's part). In the case of Polar Express, i guess it's the motion capture, but characters sometimes look like they're overly stiff or even having a seizure. They look like marionettes with a limited range of movement, it's creepy and awkward and looks nothing like real life. But overall, the movies they used for examples were actually CGI movies i was rather impressed with and didn't take much issue with (besides the eye and mouth movements like i mentioned).

It's more the goofy stuff i don't like in CGI. For animated movies such as Tangled or Meet the Robinsons, i just feel they work better with the hand drawn style. The characters tend to be animated extremely nicely, which i appreciate. But their actual models just don't tend to look right. I don't always dig the super deformed looks. And this doesn't just go for the human models, animal models don't always look right. Even environments sometimes just don't look right (though Pixar usually does a pretty good job at the environments at least).

I actually liked Al in Toy Story 2 though, thought he looked very detailed and well animated for a CGI model. I was quite impressed by him. I like the character models in Shrek as well, i don't completely hate that CGI style.

In terms of a ride using CGI though, my reasons for dislike are quite simple- i feel there's more depth and dynamics you can convey with a high quality animatronic model than a TV screen showing either CGI OR traditional animation. I feel somewhat cheated when a ride relies exclusively on what amounts to simply TV screens plastered on the walls. A little is tolerable, especially if it is used logically to enhance the scene. But for rides that are mostly or all just video clips, i feel cheated and can't help shake the feeling that the ride was cheaply made. Using well animated and designed animatronics give a subconscious feeling that they just put more effort into the ride.

The current iteration of Imagination rubs me this way, AND has ugly as sin CGI (though that's only one of the many issues). The Seas with Nemo again uses way too much "video screen" stuff and way too little actual physical animatronics (though i DID like the projection of Nemo and his friends inside the fish tank, that was clever and looked surprisingly good). And again getting into flamebait territory, not a fan of Toy Story Mania for just using TV screens either.

And i don't think anyone has to be reminded of this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbrpqWkNqyo

Though in regards to the same movie, one bit of CGI WAS a huge improvement over the puppet-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqzHTWK8B4

Although i'd choose the original Yoda over either of those two-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjnbIF1yAA
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
CGI kills the thrill. kinda.

Now that we have digressed into movies, I think I liked action films better when I knew that someone was doing real stunts with real danger. All of these CGI explosions with the actor being catapulted by a bungee cord 2 feet ahead of the fireball makes me yawn. Or Spiderman being all CGI takes away any sense of threat, as though the character is invincible. When you know it's all fake you no longer move to the edge of your seat, at least I don't. It's just a photo realistic cartoon with noise.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Since CGI is the best special effects for certain things, we've seen 90% CGI movies come about, such as the Star Wars prequels, however you look at what Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings...a LOT of those movies were real sets or real miniatures built and IMO, you can tell the quality difference.

..and yet Peter Jackson instead used Computer Rendering to alter the cinematography of every frame of LOTR too. While the scenes in LOTR may include real stuff, it's still just as much CGI because they reworked every frame of the film.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
..and yet Peter Jackson instead used Computer Rendering to alter the cinematography of every frame of LOTR too. While the scenes in LOTR may include real stuff, it's still just as much CGI because they reworked every frame of the film.

There is a difference between taking reality and building on it or enhancing it, versus replacing it with CGI imagery. In "Sky Captain" the actors were real, but the environments were digital. Then they went over all of it later to key the colors to work together.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Good Progress

In today's DL update you'll see some nice progress on the various efforts big and small to keep both parks fresh.

http://micechat.com/blogs/dateline-...-details-romance-ragtime-matterhorn-more.html

Disneyana reopened and the new wall coverings are top notch. I've used the exact same ones myself on projects (and they spared no cost, Cha-Ching!). Those wall coverings are hand screened in San Francisco and are authentic. We used them before on Main Street and they are the best. Good One!

Notice the way merchandise picked up on the New Attraction posters as products over at DCA. Good one!

Super props go to taking the time to post the history of the Matterhorn on the rehab construction fence. YES.

New "Romance" edition of the Small World projection show. Trying to keep those AP's happy and busy with updated stuff. All good.

Want to make sure we highlight the good things.
 

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