Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

yankspy

Well-Known Member
"If you had Wings" Attraction video. Maybe you recall this TL WDW MK dark ride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vmfc8aVW-U

Very much. This was back when you had the ticket system and this attraction was a freebie so we went on it a lot. Back then flying still had a certain romance to it so the attraction worked in that sense.

I remember booking our flights at the end of the ride where they had an Eastern rep. stationed there.

This was also when Eastern was the official airline of WDW and that actually meant something. Characters met you at the gate, in-flight Disney movies as well as Disney music over the headsets.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Very much. This was back when you had the ticket system and this attraction was a freebie so we went on it a lot. Back then flying still had a certain romance to it so the attraction worked in that sense.

I remember booking our flights at the end of the ride where they had an Eastern rep. stationed there.

This was also when Eastern was the official airline of WDW and that actually meant something. Characters met you at the gate, in-flight Disney movies as well as Disney music over the headsets.

Wow. I never heard of anyone actually booking their flight from the attraction exit. Thanks for sharing.
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
Very much. This was back when you had the ticket system and this attraction was a freebie so we went on it a lot. Back then flying still had a certain romance to it so the attraction worked in that sense.

I remember booking our flights at the end of the ride where they had an Eastern rep. stationed there.

This was also when Eastern was the official airline of WDW and that actually meant something. Characters met you at the gate, in-flight Disney movies as well as Disney music over the headsets.

I remember this as well. Both the attraction and the reps. Loved the 'speed tunnel' as a kid. :D
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
John Hench speaks.

I posted a great article quoting veteran Disney Animator and "Guru" Imagineer John Hench talking about the origins of the Haunted Mansion among other things. I knew John in his later years (he was 80 and still working every day). He was considered an expert on color and you would go show him your color boards for insight. He'd give it to you and was supportive. He also applied his own philosophy as to why attractions succeed and why people love the parks. I agree with him on many of his observations and use them as a basis for my own process.

Always a great and inspiring read. That's what this thread is for.

Your thoughts?

http://progresscityusa.com/2011/11/08/hench-on-hench/comment-page-1/#comment-122949

Thanks to Mike Crawford for another great find.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I have been doing some research lately and it got me thinking about economic climate and the reception of the international parks. Tokyo Disneyland was conceived in the late 1970s and opened in the early 1980s, a time when the Japanese economy was booming and Japanese business interests were spreading across the globe. Compare this to the next to projects, which were both able secure government support because the Resort building promised a big project (jobs) during a time of economic recession. I know correlation does not prove causation, but I think it is one worth looking at as an aspect of the cultural issues that surrounded Disneyland Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland more recently. Did a poor economy, with a foreign multinational coming to sort of "save the day" help create an atmosphere that was less receptive to the American theme park model?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I have been doing some research lately and it got me thinking about economic climate and the reception of the international parks. Tokyo Disneyland was conceived in the late 1970s and opened in the early 1980s, a time when the Japanese economy was booming and Japanese business interests were spreading across the globe. Compare this to the next to projects, which were both able secure government support because the Resort building promised a big project (jobs) during a time of economic recession. I know correlation does not prove causation, but I think it is one worth looking at as an aspect of the cultural issues that surrounded Disneyland Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland more recently. Did a poor economy, with a foreign multinational coming to sort of "save the day" help create an atmosphere that was less receptive to the American theme park model?

Well, timing is everything. The model of course is that each park is a smash hit and does not need saving. The bad press does cast a shadow, but in the case of DLP (opened in a down economy) it's MK was attended by about 11 million guests it's first year which is huge compared to first year WDW MK that opened with a fraction of on property rooms to support and lower attendance. DLP is right behind TDL and ahead of TDS. So for a fiscally struggling park it does good numbers, it's the profits that are rough.
 

yankspy

Well-Known Member
I posted a great article quoting veteran Disney Animator and "Guru" Imagineer John Hench talking about the origins of the Haunted Mansion among other things. I knew John in his later years (he was 80 and still working every day). He was considered an expert on color and you would go show him your color boards for insight. He'd give it to you and was supportive. He also applied his own philosophy as to why attractions succeed and why people love the parks. I agree with him on many of his observations and use them as a basis for my own process.

Always a great and inspiring read. That's what this thread is for.

Your thoughts?

http://progresscityusa.com/2011/11/08/hench-on-hench/comment-page-1/#comment-122949

Thanks to Mike Crawford for another great find.


Awesome stuff. I love the part about the trees at the end. I think that highlights what most people call the "Disney Magic". You do not realize why you have that safe and happy feeling when you walk down Main Street because your senses are being overloaded but it is because of all of those little details. You almost do not want to know about those details because it is a little bit like like finding out how the magician pulled the rabbit out of his hat. The fun is gone.

I worry that this kind of detail is taken for granted today. I always wonder when they put in a DVC Booth or a store that is selling something out of place in a particular land if there was this kind preliminary thought? Perhaps the space was originally meant to be empty? Perhaps you are breaking up the feel of the land by selling stitch dolls in Frontierland?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Awesome stuff. I love the part about the trees at the end. I think that highlights what most people call the "Disney Magic". You do not realize why you have that safe and happy feeling when you walk down Main Street because your senses are being overloaded but it is because of all of those little details. You almost do not want to know about those details because it is a little bit like like finding out how the magician pulled the rabbit out of his hat. The fun is gone.

I worry that this kind of detail is taken for granted today. I always wonder when they put in a DVC Booth or a store that is selling something out of place in a particular land if there was this kind preliminary thought? Perhaps the space was originally meant to be empty? Perhaps you are breaking up the feel of the land by selling stitch dolls in Frontierland?

Well, all of those little compromises to the seamlessness of the experience weaken it overall and eventually break the spell. It all becomes a caricature of what it is trying to represent. I think these compromised "lands" have been homogenized into a cliche that defines a "theme park". Why? Because the same elements and program are repeated in all of the lands, only arranged differently. The "theme" is reduced to being nothing more than an exercise in styling overlaid on this formulaic set of rules that come from retail and food department guidelines, codes and the pandering of over-merchandising the public spaces. We have evolved from a "movie set" that suspends disbelief, into places that can only be described as "theme parks". Carsland looks like it may defy this by it's sheer immersion, but nonetheless, the details make or break these experiences.

I was at DL yesterday and noticed that one of the Frontierland facades was so evenly shaded and aged that it was no longer really aging, it seemed like technique for it's own sake. You could never use this type of weathering in a movie as it looked more like Toontown than the Frontier. My friend asked why it was like that. I was not really sure. All I could say is that like muscle reflex, there is such a scenic process in place that the technique took the place of thinking "How" it would logically age, or the story of why it aged at all as the color had a high sheen level to it (aged things have low or no sheen). It was perfectly shadowed on all sides the same everywhere, contrary to nature or anything else. It just rang "hollow" as there was no motive for it other than it was "Disney style" and executed very well. Just a thought. Sometimes theme is used like wallpaper without regard for its holistic reason to exist or play well with other elements.

As to forethought to putting DVC booths into the lands, you are usually told that they will be there and that you need to integrate them. Too bad they won't let you theme them as "Snake Oil Salesman" in Frontierland!
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
Well, all of those little compromises to the seamlessness of the experience weaken it overall and eventually break the spell. It all becomes a caricature of what it is trying to represent. I think these compromised "lands" have been homogenized into a cliche that defines a "theme park". Why? Because the same elements and program are repeated in all of the lands, only arranged differently. The "theme" is reduced to being nothing more than an exercise in styling overlaid on this formulaic set of rules that come from retail and food department guidelines, codes and the pandering of over-merchandising the public spaces. We have evolved from a "movie set" that suspends disbelief, into places that can only be described as "theme parks".

I was at DL yesterday and noticed that one of the Frontierland facades was so evenly shaded and aged that it was no longer really aging, it seemed like technique for it's own sake. You could never use this type of weathering in a movie as it looked more like Toontown than the Frontier. My friend asked why it was like that. I was not really sure. All I could say is that like muscle reflex, there is such a scenic process in place that the technique took the place of thinking "How" it would logically age, or the story of why it aged at all as the color had a high sheen level to it (aged things have low or no sheen). It was perfectly shadowed on all sides the same everywhere, contrary to nature or anything else. It just rang "hollow" as there was no motive for it other than it was "Disney style" and executed very well. Just a thought. Sometimes theme is used like wallpaper without regard for its holistic reason to exist or play well with other elements.

As to forethought to putting DVC booths into the lands, you are usually told that they will be there and that you need to integrate them. Too bad they won't let you theme them as "Snake Oil Salesman" in Frontierland!

Beautifully stated, although I think the term "theme park" should be applied to the paragon version of this artform, rather than the Pressler-ized marketing mall it has become in some instances. '

A theme park (in its paragon form) is deeper/higher art than an equally-executed movie set because it is a virtual reality stage play that the audience can explore & interact with in three dimensions. Of course, a paragon theme park is vastly higher & more important than a shopping mall with themed exteriors. It requires great artists, engineers and businessmen to create and operate great theme parks. But the skill/quality of people is varied. Lesser artists & executive leadership are responsible for lesser works, in both the micro & macro. The work of the great and the lesser can be seen co-mingling around the world today.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Beautifully stated, although I think the term "theme park" should be applied to the paragon version of this artform, rather than the Pressler-ized marketing mall it has become in some instances. '

A theme park (in its paragon form) is deeper/higher art than an equally-executed movie set because it is a virtual reality stage play that the audience can explore & interact with in three dimensions. Of course, a paragon theme park is vastly higher & more important than a shopping mall with themed exteriors. It requires great artists, engineers and businessmen to create and operate great theme parks. But the skill/quality of people is varied. Lesser artists & executive leadership are responsible for lesser works, in both the micro & macro. The work of the great and the lesser can be seen co-mingling around the world today.

Excellent point. Well said.

I meant that things have evolved into the stereotype "Theme Park" with T-Shirt Shops with the same stuff everywhere, churro wagons in the wrong lands, and ATMS, Vending machines and more all made to look like old crates with puns stenciled on them. A far cry from the original design intent. A Leica Camera made in Japan.
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
Excellent point. Well said.

I meant that things have evolved into the stereotype "Theme Park" with T-Shirt Shops with the same stuff everywhere, churro wagons in the wrong lands, and ATMS, Vending machines and more all made to look like old crates with puns stenciled on them. A far cry from the original design intent. A Leica Camera made in Japan.

I agree, but maybe it is cyclical and someday, somewhere, will evolve back into a more sophisticated, compelling form (that treats retail, dining and everything inbetween as part of the show) and that tackles its subjects with a certain level of authenticity. The most compelling parts of various parks past & present have been the areas where the illusion is sold across every form, in every shop & restaurant. Parts of Wizarding World do this (from what I've seen online) and it has been a big financial success... so it's not a completely lost art.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I agree, but maybe it is cyclical and someday, somewhere, will evolve back into a more sophisticated, compelling form (that treats retail, dining and everything inbetween as part of the show) and that tackles its subjects with a certain level of authenticity. The most compelling parts of various parks past & present have been the areas where the illusion is sold across every form, in every shop & restaurant. Parts of Wizarding World do this (from what I've seen online) and it has been a big financial success... so it's not a completely lost art.

I agree that you can do it all and better, and to your point, it's being done now. Things have to decline before they ascend. WWHP is now a model that Disney is studying even though they pioneered theming.
 

trs518

Active Member
I agree that you can do it all and better, and to your point, it's being done now. Things have to decline before they ascend. WWHP is now a model that Disney is studying even though they pioneered theming.

In many of the discussions around specific Imagineers, it frequently comes up about how well read and the number of other pursuits that they have. It makes sense that companies try to follow that as well. If I were Disney, I would send many Imagineers over there. Not necessarily to copy it, but to make sure that they've seen many different designs.

Speaking of design and frequently discussed topics, here is an interesting article on Steve Jobs design philosophy. Interestingly, they use the word skeuomorphic in it.

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...the-6-pillars-of-steve-jobs-design-philosophy
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
In many of the discussions around specific Imagineers, it frequently comes up about how well read and the number of other pursuits that they have. It makes sense that companies try to follow that as well. If I were Disney, I would send many Imagineers over there. Not necessarily to copy it, but to make sure that they've seen many different designs.

Right, and since I keep seeing Steve Jobs' face on this thread, I might as well post that Apple has definitely taken cues from the Android OS for the new iOS5. Although they will never admit it, like Apple, Disney DOES study the competition.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Right, and since I keep seeing Steve Jobs' face on this thread, I might as well post that Apple has definitely taken cues from the Android OS for the new iOS5. Although they will never admit it, like Apple, Disney DOES study the competition.

It's wise to do so, but it's ironic when you have to study your competitor to find out how to do the very ethics you pioneered, but strayed from. Especially in food and merchandise being closely tied into the total experience.
 

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