Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

The nice part about it is that it would have extended the reach of the Frontierland "town" area and it makes sense being a more temporary settlement on the edge of town down by the river. I'll have to admit that in their historic context the tent structures may have been a bit too "rough" but I'm sure they could have been made to look like they fit into Disneyland. Was there to be any gold panning for the guests? ...or was that considered to be too "Knott's"??

I think it could have been done really well and lushly propped to make it a unique town more than just a campsite. The tents were on wood floors and foundations with half walls. (The tent to the right of "Keystone Hall" in the photo I posted is like that. the Saloon picture is a half wall and floor with canvas ceiling too. That's the way many of those places were done. Some even had wood facades with tents behind. Some Hotels of that period had canvas ceilings or roofs with the wall covering glued on the canvas. I don't recall gold panning being part of it.

 

[Omnispace]

I think it could have been done really well and lushly propped to make it a unique town more than just a campsite. The tents were on wood floors and foundations with half walls. (The tent to the right of "Keystone Hall" in the photo I posted is like that. the Saloon picture is a half wall and floor with canvas ceiling too. That's the way many of those places were done. Some even had wood facades with tents behind. Some Hotels of that period had canvas ceilings or roofs with the wall covering glued on the canvas. I don't recall gold panning being part of it.

What I like about the mining camp idea is that it embraces actual history rather than a movie property. I'm not sure if you intended it to be directly off the main path but delaying the reveal would make it feel like one stepped into a different time.

It reminds me of the tunnel that used to lead to the Indian Village. It made the village feel like a separate realm of Disneyland rather than an extension of "more of the same". The foreboding nature of a cave gave a sense there might be danger beyond, (there actually was a huge bear beyond it if I recall correctly). Also, I thought tunnels were cool. I was disappointed when they removed it for Bear Country but looking at it now I can see how it would be undersized for today's pedestrian flow. It seemed so much bigger back then...

Tunnel to Indian Village

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[Pixiedustmaker]

I think one of the keys is in the title of the park.

. . .

They are hoping to build on concepts Tesla was working on. Further, he intends for the project to be energy independent. He hopes to develop technologies that will allow homes, schools, businesses etc to exist independent of the grid.

That's a tall order with today's technology given that homes, schools . . . and more importantly hospitals, need to have 24/7 power. We saw what happened when Sandy shorted the grid in NYC.

Frankly, while I think the U.S should heavily invest in green energy, nothing will likely stop China, India, and other countries from using fossil fuels until they are gone. Plus, our electric energy needs will grow, IMHO, in the future, perhaps exponentially with electric vehicles and more power hungry servers. I think that long term, the solution is fusion (and Thorium reactors as a second bet).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

I think his agricultural facilities will be designed to educate and develop systems for people and communities to have a certain capacity for food independence so as not to be too reliant on a global system that may be subject to disruption through natural or man-made events.

It taks a lot of acreage to grow enough food for one person, never mind growing the food for a cattle to eat so that a person can have a hamburger.

There is a huge underserved market for entertainment and education that is not always skewed towards a profoundly narrow POV. He is attracting major talent with this concept. People in the entertainment industry are already responding to the challange Beck is creating. The tide is turning.

The foundation of the park, in my opinion, will be the revival of American history, so much of which has been erased from history books. I have absolutely no doubt he will educate people about all aspects of the American story including both the good and the bad. I think you could consider the American Adventure at Epcot a sort of "movie trailer" for what he has in mind. It will be a place to educate on that which has been forgotten or erased, a museum for displaying the actual documents etc, and an archive for preservation and scholarly research. People will be stunned by the scope of the project and what has been hidden from them about their history across the political spectrum. I expect it to eventually rival anything at the best museums and archives in the US.

I think a problem is that Beck isn't a history professor, and he has said a lot of really weird things, such as saying progressives were slave owners back in the day, and subvert democracy (if I am understanding what he is say):

"Progressives have been fighting for decades to achieve the power to decide for you, and erase the Republicans, now they just want to call it a democracy. They've come a long, long way, bit by bit, piece by piece, they have been chipping away your individual freedoms. We call them progressives now, but back in Samuel Adams' day, they used to call them tyrants. A little later, I think they're also called slave owners -- people that encourage you to become more dependent on them, and it's working." ---- Glenn Beck

The 4th of July (Independence Day) show he mentions will take place this year I believe. Although I do not think the specifics have been announced. From what I can tell it will be something akin to Illuminations but on a much bigger scale. I then expect it could become part of Independence, USA when it is built.

Much bigger than Illuminations?!

At some point I'd be worried about setting the entire atmosphere on fire!

They are hoping to build on concepts Tesla was working on.

No, that's Brad Bird's 1952 movie.

 

[Omnispace]

I would hope that eventually Big Thunder Ranch, especially the former Festival of Fools area is gutted and the land is expanded below the train tracks like in Critter Country. It would be neat if there were a couple of meandering scene paths around this area as well. I guess we'll have to see how Oz and Lone Ranger do at the box office.

I remember taking the train around the park back in the day and there seemed like endless space back behind where you are talking about, before they built the festival area and "Videopolis". I would like to see an updated version of the Western River Expedition concept, even if they tie it to the Lone Ranger -- (but I honestly feel that movie tie-in's limit the possibilities.)

There has been some controversy over how Marc Davis portrayed Indians in WRE which is perhaps less P.C. these days. I honestly have always wondered how well a Mary Blair styled western ride would be received. But an updated reworking of the WRE idea might make good use of the area -- especially if you could expand past the tracks with the bulk of the show building. I could easily see some comedic scenes where western settlers get increasingly out of control while native Americans stand nobly by, as if the most obnoxious losers have crashed their elegant dinner party. Then a turnabout where the natives summon the forces of nature to dampen the party, (referencing a scene from the original proposal if I remember correctly). Then the exciting climax where nature gets out of control and threatens the guests. There are some interesting new ideas leaked that allow for unique control of the boat system that could be employed.

On the topic of the West and American natives, I have always appreciated that Knott's resurrected the Mystery Lodge show from Expo 86. It's one of my favorite shows and perfectly captures the tone of America's native cultures. The only way I think they can improve it is to theme the theater.

 

[Darth Sidious]

Hey Eddie I was reading about the Mystic Manor ride they are building in Hong Kong. Do you think they used portions of the ideas you all had for the HM redesign for Disneyland's 50th? They are using a trackless system.... I'm jealous we still don't have one stateside.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hey Eddie I was reading about the Mystic Manor ride they are building in Hong Kong. Do you think they used portions of the ideas you all had for the HM redesign for Disneyland's 50th? They are using a trackless system.... I'm jealous we still don't have one stateside.

Not really, although I'm not aware of the entire show. It seems they have a whole new story. Ideas at WDI are pretty recyclable and you don't really own them. The use of the trackless system is encouraging.

 

[Darth Sidious]

Not really. It seems they have a whole new story. The use of the trackless system is encouraging.

Indeed, I believe it is being used in Paris as well. Maybe we aren't too far off.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

What I like about the mining camp idea is that it embraces actual history rather than a movie property. I'm not sure if you intended it to be directly off the main path but delaying the reveal would make it feel like one stepped into a different time.

It reminds me of the tunnel that used to lead to the Indian Village. It made the village feel like a separate realm of Disneyland rather than an extension of "more of the same". The foreboding nature of a cave gave a sense there might be danger beyond, (there actually was a huge bear beyond it if I recall correctly). Also, I thought tunnels were cool. I was disappointed when they removed it for Bear Country but looking at it now I can see how it would be undersized for today's pedestrian flow. It seemed so much bigger back then...

Tunnel to Indian Village

_

I remember going through that tunnel when I was a small child! A big deal. Tunnels are great transitions and allow for a grand reveal. Glad you brought that up. Bear Country did a rock pass, no tunnel and I remember being a bit let down by that change like you. It did seem bigger then, but just as thrilling. Toontown has that underpass and that is a nice reveal as you head up the grade and see it from the horizon downward. From a capacity standpoint, you can do two separate one way tunnels so you'd have an exit and entry and make them about 8-10 feet wide. As long as it curves enough to create some darkness and mystery you are pretty safe. The Indian Tunnel led to a dead end, so it never became that busy. TSI was awesome to this day because of having safe, explorable caves. Who has caves at home?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Indeed, I believe it is being used in Paris as well. Maybe we aren't too far off.

Ratatouille is using it from what I hear. I'd love to see that trackless system soar to new heights. There are ways to use it that no one has tried yet, so I'd love to design one using some of these tricks and see what happens.

 

[Omnispace]

The Indian Tunnel led to a dead end, so it never became that busy. TSI was awesome to this day because of having safe, explorable caves.

I always loved the caves on TSI, even as I got older. And don't forget the tunnel at Knott's that lead down to the gold panning spot. That thing was like a vortex that would suck people in. It was a great way to entice people down to the lower level.

Who has caves at home?

It wasn't for me not trying. Eventually my mother would want her sofa cushions back.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

There are some interesting new ideas leaked that allow for unique control of the boat system that could be employed.

They've also been looking at an omnimover system which is mounted above, instead of below, the ride vehicle (RV). I really hope they don't try to turn Peter Pan into an omnimover, if the ride is too slow loading (it is), they should build two tracks and an expanded load area so each guest can have that personalized ride experience.

It would be nice to see an omnimover/Indy-boat system used for WRE, but given that Disneyland has so many boat rides, (Splash, IASW, Pirates, Jungle Cruise), I can see why they might go with something else in Frontierland.

I wonder what an Oz ride vehicle would be? Maybe a hot-air balloon bucket which seats about four guests?

I wonder if they ever thought about a cart as a ride vehicle, maybe even one pulled by a faux-horse? IMHO, that implies a heightened level of anxiety/excitment if they can tip the RV and make it feel like its going to tip over as it swings around a bend. Plus, you'd have a 360 view, similar to Great Movie Ride and Universe of Energy, which I think is a big plus that those rides have. Mystic Manor, which sounds like quite a lavish ride, will have an open RV.

They could have a Kansas Fairground, with a queue for "hay rides", you get on a cart that looks like it has hay, and you fly around the country side and a tornado picks you up and deposits you in Oz.

Next stop, Oz!

I wonder how they'd do the tornado?

Maybe a room shaped like a cylinder with fans and acrylic cotton painted grey that swirls around on the sides. I could see this being a great scene for LPS vehicles which swirl around each other, adding to the kinetic energy.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Horizons was an overhead Omnimover of sorts.

 

[Omnispace]

I wonder if they ever thought about a cart as a ride vehicle, maybe even one pulled by a faux-horse?

How about a cart pulled by a faux dinosaur??!!

 

[Omnispace]

Horizons was an overhead Omnimover of sorts.

I once rode an overhead "omnimover" at a western themed dark ride at the old Elitch's Gardens in Denver. It was basically tube-frame ski lift chairs pulled along by a chain but that allowed the ride to be on two levels which was interesting. It didn't make it to the new park.

The cars that George McGinnis designed for Horizons were very cool. I'd be happy with just one car riding around on that test track!!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The first 1939 NYWF Horizon's ride had these. Look at that moving floor.

 

[jt04]

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Funny parody. It was only a matter of time. I'm sure they will do a "Hitler finds out about Independence Park" next.

At WDI,we used to cobble together "pitch reels" of existing footage and make our own videos to gin up interest for our parks or ideas in presentations. Basically mock commercials. We never had the budget to go beyond photoshop and clip files. Now they are done in 3D and really pro looking. Made me miss making those fun little things.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

How about a cart pulled by a faux dinosaur??!!

Why didn't this idea get translated into even cooler Lucas creatures? I bet they retool this into a Mos Eisley "Streetmosphere" fleet of critters roaming some new Star Wars area. Imagine 20 of these in various sizes and creatures clogging a Spaceport or roaming a resort lobby! Or better yet, a full on Star Wars Creature parade.

 

[MarkTwain]

That would be fascinating if they could lend such creatures to being part of outdoor atmosphere, whether permanent or temporary!

Speaking of which Eddie, what do you know about outdoor animatronics on a semi-permanent basis? I know the Jungle Cruise has some, and the Enchanted Tiki Room had one back in the day, but other those I really can't think of many. Are weather and climate conditions too much for most animatronics to put up with year round?

 

[Omnispace]

The first 1939 NYWF Horizon's ride had these. Look at that moving floor.

Very similar to the Bell System attraction at the 1964 NY Fair...

Could these be the precursor to the shapes of the first Atommobiles and Doombuggies? I remember reading an account from Bob Gurr how they went back and forth a couple times on deciding what the shape of the Omnimover cars should be. It would be interesting to know what the details of that discussion were.

More wonderful NYWF64 Bell System goodness here... Interesting how the chairs keep level.

To The Fair>>

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