Dumbo and Peter Pan rides set for removal?

[Brer Oswald]

Picking up media traction now:

Disney changed how it handles ‘Peter Pan.’ Will the Disneyland ride be next?

The ride shows culturally insensitive depictions of Native Americans.

www.sfgate.com

Interesting that Disney may have privately floated the idea of changing the ride already.

We’ve all been discussing it for some time. These news outlets and slow to their sensationalist party.

 

[Brer Panther]

They sell Jessica Rabbit shirts in the parks as of a year or two ago.

I've seen a ton of Jessica merch.

True. But, hey, they were still selling Brer Rabbit merchandise before the retheme was announced despite Bob Iger's apparent hatred of the character and the film he spawned from.

Plus, in this day and age, she's a progressive character. She's not bad, she's just drawn that way. Ties directly into shaming a girl for her looks/style and making assumptions about her. In the end, she's a foxy toon who truly does love her dorky guy and is more than just an object in the film. I don't foresee any bucking of Jessica.

I'm just going off of what I believe Robert Zemeckis said a few years ago - that Disney doesn't care about Roger and hates Jessica.

 

[_caleb]

Yes, all of that is true. But it seems we lose something in the language if we stop using more descriptive and accurate words like "prejudice" or "bigot". If something is merely insensitive, but we describe it instead as full-on "racist", eventually we demean and reduce the impact of a powerful word like racism.

We wouldn't want to only have two words to describe an outcome; "Disastrous" or "Fabulous". You need other words in between those two extremes to effectively communicate ideas and concepts, or else the ideas and concepts we discuss get muddled and reduced. At least in my opinion.

The use of the N word is not new. I was a HUGE fan of Sanford & Son 45 years ago, and watched it religiously. Yet even then I knew that its repeated use of the N word by the older actors/actresses on that show on national TV was not good. It popped your eyes open when used, even back then. At least for non-prejudiced white people watching who never used that word in conversation. So the use of that word, or other shocking words not used by polite people, is not a new concept.

When a person tries to look for nuance in racism (rather than avoid it outright whenever they’re made aware of it), it comes across like they’re ok with some racism (the “milder” sorts, or the older sorts). I know it can be confusing (since what used to be considered ok might not be ok today), but you don’t have to sort it out on your own.

 

[Practical Pig]

show me the data that says large portion of native americans find the indians in Peter Pan offensive. Show me the studies. Show me the surveys. Show me your evidence they have a problem with it more than the people trying to be offended for them.

Practically speaking, in making their choices I think Disney is going to be more concerned with the general ticket-buying public's perception of whatever is the issue-at-hand, in this and every socially-driven revision.

 

[TP2000]

I’m not sure where the idea came from that use of the term ”racist” should only be applied in the most extreme of cases. As though there was a continuum that begins with “insensitivity” and then moves to “prejudice,” and then to “bigotry,” and so on, with “racism” as the ultimate worst. The entire spectrum is racism. So even something mildly insensitive, if the insensitivity in question is related to race, is racist.

I think the word racism should be used when something fits the definition of the word racism. That is, a belief that one race is inherently inferior biologically and/or physiologically to another race or races.

From Webster's dictionary...

Noun: 1. a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

I don't find the lyrics of the Peter Pan song "What Makes The Red Man Red" to be racist. Those lyrics are certainly unfashionable and insensitive, and I don't think a song like that should be used in a Disneyland ride (it's not). The lyrics also show a degree of prejudice, even though they are attempting to describe the shared humanity of far-off American Indians with the 19th century British audience the Peter Pan book was written for.

But are the lyrics "racist"? They are if you now use the word racist to mean anything and everything applied to race or culture that is not fawning in its praise.

And I think it's a mistake to overuse and water down a word like that, because it makes it harder to identify real racism when it happens.

 

[TP2000]

When a person tries to look for nuance in racism (rather than avoid it outright whenever they’re made aware of it), it comes across like they’re ok with some racism (the “milder” sorts, or the older sorts). I know it can be confusing (since what used to be considered ok might not be ok today), but you don’t have to sort it out on your own.

That's just the point.

There is no nuance in racism. It's simply wrong.

There is nuance in lesser concepts like cultural insensitivity or even prejudices a person hasn't quite worked out.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I am happy to see that we are having important conversations and keeping it civil. When this happens, we all learn together- and we grow to respect each others' opinions as well as making friends. (And yes, we all have things to learn from each other.)

 

[Nirya]

I think the word racism should be used when something fits the definition of the word racism. That is, a belief that one race is inherently inferior biologically and/or physiologically to another race or races.

From Webster's dictionary...

Noun: 1. a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

I don't find the lyrics of the Peter Pan song "What Makes The Red Man Red" to be racist. Those lyrics are certainly unfashionable and insensitive, and I don't think a song like that should be used in a Disneyland ride (it's not). The lyrics also show a degree of prejudice, even though they are attempting to describe the shared humanity of far-off American Indians with the 19th century British audience the Peter Pan book was written for.

But are the lyrics "racist"? They are if you now use the word racist to mean anything and everything applied to race or culture that is not fawning in its praise.

And I think it's a mistake to overuse and water down a word like that, because it makes it harder to identify real racism when it happens.

Love that you left out the other parts of the Websters definition. Here, let me put them here for everyone else, because I know you didn't do that on purpose:

also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice

2a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

So yeah, the lyrics would fit under the definition because it falls under racial discrimination and prejudice.

 

[_caleb]

I think the word racism should be used when something fits the definition of the word racism. That is, a belief that one race is inherently inferior biologically and/or physiologically to another race or races.

From Webster's dictionary...

Noun: 1. a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

I don't find the lyrics of the Peter Pan song "What Makes The Red Man Red" to be racist. Those lyrics are certainly unfashionable and insensitive, and I don't think a song like that should be used in a Disneyland ride (it's not). The lyrics also show a degree of prejudice, even though they are attempting to describe the shared humanity of far-off Indians with the 19th century British audience the Peter Pan book was written for.

But are the lyrics "racist"? They are if you now use the word racist to mean anything and everything applied to race or culture that is not fawning in its praise.

And I think it's a mistake to overuse a word like that, because it makes it harder to identify real racism when it happens.

Race isn’t a scientific category, it’s a social construct. The definition you cite (which is one of a few in the dictionary), supports my claim that the song is racist because the lyrics make fun of a group of people by highlighting (and deliberately distorting) traits (red skin, ugly moms) and capabilities (speech patterns) of Native peoples from the perspective of White Americans in the 1950s.

“They were attempting to describe the shared humanity of far-off Indians with the 19th century British audience the book was written for” ?

What makes you think this is what they were trying to do? And wasn’t the film primarily directed at a 1953 American audience?

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

The Rocketeer glorifies White Patriarchal Society. You need to set a better example. Change your avatar.

 

[TP2000]

Love that you left out the other parts of the Websters definition. Here, let me put them here for everyone else, because I know you didn't do that on purpose:



So yeah, the lyrics would fit under the definition because it falls under racial discrimination and prejudice.

The secondary definition of the word racism you linked to also doesn't apply to Peter Pan or the song lyrics.

: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

If anything, that secondary definition has even less to do with Peter Pan or the song lyrics.

 

[_caleb]

The Rocketeer glorifies White Patriarchal Society. You need to set a better example. Change your avatar.

How so? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts!

What do you recommend I change my avatar to?

 

[Brer Oswald]

That's just the point.

There is no nuance in racism. It's simply wrong.

There is nuance in lesser concepts like cultural insensitivity or even prejudices a person hasn't quite worked out.

The goal is to turn the uninformed into knowledgeable and accepting people. If you call an insensitive or unknowledgeable person a “racist”, chances are, it’s going to push them in that direction rather than steer them on the path of self improvement. It’s not a guarantee, some have greater self control and emotional intelligence. But I think this is why we are seeing “racism on the rise”. The lack of knowledge was always there, but we are turning that lack of knowledge into resentment based on how we are talking to each other, particularly online.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

How so? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts!

What do you recommend I change my avatar to?

Baby Yoda

 

[Professortango1]

I think the word racism should be used when something fits the definition of the word racism. That is, a belief that one race is inherently inferior biologically and/or physiologically to another race or races.

From Webster's dictionary...

Noun: 1. a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

I don't find the lyrics of the Peter Pan song "What Makes The Red Man Red" to be racist. Those lyrics are certainly unfashionable and insensitive, and I don't think a song like that should be used in a Disneyland ride (it's not). The lyrics also show a degree of prejudice, even though they are attempting to describe the shared humanity of far-off American Indians with the 19th century British audience the Peter Pan book was written for.

But are the lyrics "racist"? They are if you now use the word racist to mean anything and everything applied to race or culture that is not fawning in its praise.

And I think it's a mistake to overuse and water down a word like that, because it makes it harder to identify real racism when it happens.

Considering "redskin" is a racial slur, I would say that a song that plays with a racial slur in lyric form is most likely racist. If there was a song about what makes the black man erardly, I don't think there would be many defending it.

Do I think the song is the most horrendously offensive thing ever? No. But then again, I'm not a Indigenous Person who has had to deal with oppression due to racist views.

 

[TP2000]

Race isn’t a scientific category, it’s a social construct. The definition you cite (which is one of a few in the dictionary), supports my claim that the song is racist because the lyrics make fun of a group of people by highlighting (and deliberately distorting) traits (red skin, ugly moms) and capabilities (speech patterns) of Native peoples from the perspective of White Americans in the 1950s.

Yes, but those are concepts in the film that would more accurately be described as prejudice or insensitivity. They insensitively make fun of American Indians (a cultural thing in Victorian era Britain; they were really fascinated with North American Indian tribes then), but there is no evidence the writers think American Indians are biologically or inherently inferior.

The lyrics don't claim their "moms" were ugly. It was a mother-in-law joke. Which leads us to...

“They were attempting to describe the shared humanity of far-off Indians with the 19th century British audience the book was written for” ?

What makes you think this is what they were trying to do? And wasn’t the film primarily directed at a 1953 American audience?

The joke about the mother-in-law is actually an attempt to paint a sense of shared humanity with the Indians. The mother-in-law joke was a joke topic well used in the mid 20th century, often overused. It was a popular joke used on the Jungle Cruise about the elephants into the 1980's. By making a joke about Indian mothers-in-law, they are establishing that the Indians may have red skin but they are just like us.

I can post the lyrics again, but they're long.

 

[_caleb]

The secondary definition of the word racism you linked to also doesn't apply to Peter Pan or the song lyrics.

: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

If anything, that secondary definition has even less to do with Peter Pan or the song lyrics.

Yeah, I’m not sure I see a direct relationship to the 2nd definition. I prefer to consider the first. (Unless we want to get into the system that influence J.M. Barrie in his formative years, published his play in 1904, selected it as source material for a Disney film in 1949, or wrote the song/designed the art that we know today.)

But I know some folks here are wary of the “slippery slope” of all things race-related, so I’m happy to stay focused on the films themselves.

 

[TP2000]

Considering "redskin" is a racial slur, I would say that a song that plays with a racial slur in lyric form is most likely racist. If there was a song about what makes the black man ****erardly, I don't think there would be many defending it.

Do I think the song is the most horrendously offensive thing ever? No. But then again, I'm not a Indigenous Person who has had to deal with oppression due to racist views.

Redskin was also the name of a pro football team until just a couple months ago. It was not considered a racial slur until more recently. Much like words like "cripple" or "broad" weren't considered rude or a slur, but now they are and no one would dare use those words in public any more.

Redskin is a word that is now considered insensitive and based in prejudice, but I can't find evidence that it was "racist" when the NFL chose it, any more than it was racist when Walt's songwriters chose it.

And certainly not any more than using the term "White" or "Black" to rather inaccurately describe a person's race is racist.

 

[_caleb]

Baby Yoda

Sorry, I only entertain suggestions from people who can articulate thoughtful opinions on the matter. I’m sure you’ve got something! How, in your opinion, does The Rocketeer “glorify White Patriarchal Society?”

 

[Nirya]

The secondary definition of the word racism you linked to also doesn't apply to Peter Pan or the song lyrics.

: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

If anything, that secondary definition has even less to do with Peter Pan or the song lyrics.

Something does not have to fit all available meanings of a word to qualify as that word. The song itself would qualify as racist under the first option of the definition, specifically the part that says "also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice".