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Dumbo and Peter Pan rides set for removal?

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
So do you think it's true Disney has already told people they would change the ride?
Like news outlets? I’m not so sure about that, but it’s pretty obvious they would (especially since they poorly edited them out in a recent video of the Paris ride). It’s not like it’s difficult to remove a couple small static figures.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
But again, we haven’t stopped using words like “prejudice” and “bigoted.”

There’s nothing wrong with black people, including the ones on Sanford and Son, using the “N” word. I feel like that word lost shock value centuries ago, but that’s just me.
I personally think the use of the word, regardless of race, is unacceptable. You're always going to have a subset of people that think that if it's acceptable for black people to use the N word than why can't they use it. How many non-blacks are out there right now singing along with their favorite song that uses the N word. Doing so makes some folks feel like it's ok so it creeps back in to their normal speak.

At the end of the day, I don't believe any of us should appropriate racist terms for their own race and think it's ok. We are never going to eliminate racist terminology but it would go a long way toward helping if it wasn't every day language within a race (this goes for all races). I guess for me, derogatory is derogatory but I don't expect everyone to agree with my simplistic POV.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
I personally think the use of the word, regardless of race, is unacceptable. You're always going to have a subset of people that think that if it's acceptable for black people to use the N word than why can't they use it. How many non-blacks are out there right now singing along with their favorite song that uses the N word. Doing so makes some folks feel like it's ok so it creeps back in to their normal speak.

At the end of the day, I don't believe any of us should appropriate racist terms for their own race and think it's ok. We are never going to eliminate racist terminology but it would go a long way toward helping if it wasn't every day language within a race (this goes for all races). I guess for me, derogatory is derogatory but I don't expect everyone to agree with my simplistic POV.
You’re not the only person who feels this way. I personally use the word sometimes and don’t plan to stop anytime soon. My fellow black family members and friends also use the word and don’t believe they’ll be stopping either. The word has a different meaning for the black community and is cultural. At this point, to ask black people to stop using the “N” word is pointless. One would have to reverse time and force white people to stop referring to black people as that word for things to be different now.

The best bet moving forward is to accept that the word was reappropriated decades ago and has become part of our ethnic identity. Those who are not black should refrain from using it.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
You’re not the only person who feels this way. I personally use the word sometimes and don’t plan to stop anytime soon. My fellow black family members and friends also use the word and don’t believe they’ll be stopping either. The word has a different meaning for the black community and is cultural. At this point, to ask black people to stop using the “N” word is pointless. One would have to reverse time and force white people to stop referring to black people as that word for things to be different now.

The best bet moving forward is to accept that the word was reappropriated decades ago and has become part of our ethnic identity. Those who are not black should refrain from using it.
Despite my distaste for tribalism and racial/cultural gate keeping, I think it’s only fair society gives black people the word for how much they endured having it used against them.

From what I’ve witnessed, the reclaimed word, most often ending with an “a”, is used as a term of endearment. My favourite streamer Etika (rest his soul), who is black, would use it quite often but with positive intentions. He made a word originally used to divide, and turned it into something that united his community. Although I won’t say the word myself for obvious reasons, I admire what he was able to do with that word.

What I don’t like seeing is a black person call another black person the “hard R” with hateful intent. I don’t think that’s any better than anyone else using it in a hateful manner. Nobody deserves to be called a slur in a hateful way.
 

mandstaft

Well-Known Member
You’re not the only person who feels this way. I personally use the word sometimes and don’t plan to stop anytime soon. My fellow black family members and friends also use the word and don’t believe they’ll be stopping either. The word has a different meaning for the black community and is cultural. At this point, to ask black people to stop using the “N” word is pointless. One would have to reverse time and force white people to stop referring to black people as that word for things to be different now.

The best bet moving forward is to accept that the word was reappropriated decades ago and has become part of our ethnic identity. Those who are not black should refrain from using it.
At least then I wish it would quit being used by Black artists in music, film, etc. It is inadvertently teaching people - especially teens of all backgrounds - that is a "cool" word to use. Thereby, defeating progress being made. Half joking here- is it worth losing the word to help strengthen respectful talk? I'd say yes- regardless of what race is using it.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
At least then I wish it would quit being used by Black artists in music, film, etc. It is inadvertently teaching people - especially teens of all backgrounds - that is a "cool" word to use. Thereby, defeating progress being made. Half joking here- is it worth losing the word to help strengthen respectful talk? I'd say yes- regardless of what race is using it.
I found it quite disheartening when my daughter showed me a tik tok of our next door neighbors 16 year old daughter (blonde haired, blue eyed, white) lip syncing a rap song that used the N word multiple times. This was the concern I tried to express in my post. Putting it in a rap song means it's now for consumption by people of all colors which just furthers the belief by some non-blacks that it's ok to use the word.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
At least then I wish it would quit being used by Black artists in music, film, etc. It is inadvertently teaching people - especially teens of all backgrounds - that is a "cool" word to use. Thereby, defeating progress being made. Half joking here- is it worth losing the word to help strengthen respectful talk? I'd say yes- regardless of what race is using it.
I would disagree with that. Black artists are simply expressing themselves and using lingo we already use within our culture. It’s not up to artists to prevent certain people from using the word. I know plenty of non-black people who listen to black music, are fully aware of the connotations and historical context of the word, and don’t see a problem with not only not repeating the word, but they don’t question why we feel we can use it and others can’t.

Why are we only concerned about the “N” word? There are many “bad” words, but it seems that people only want to get rid of the usage of the “N” word, even though it’s become cultural for the black community. It’s part of our identity, how we communicate with each other, our dialect, but people don’t want us using it. I don’t believe getting rid of the “N” word is not going to somehow re-establish respectful talk. We all code switch. I know when to use it and when not to. There is no disrespect when we are using it with each other, depending on the context of the conversation.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I would disagree with that. Black artists are simply expressing themselves and using lingo we already use within our culture. It’s not up to artists to prevent certain people from using the word. I know plenty of non-black people who listen to black music, are fully aware of the connotations and historical context of the word, and don’t see a problem with not only not repeating the word, but they don’t question why we feel we can use it and others can’t.

Why are we only concerned about the “N” word? There are many “bad” words, but it seems that people only want to get rid of the usage of the “N” word, even though it’s become cultural for the black community. It’s part of our identity, how we communicate with each other, our dialect, but people don’t want us using it. I don’t believe getting rid of the “N” word is not going to somehow re-establish respectful talk. We all code switch. I know when to use it and when not to. There is no disrespect when we are using it with each other, depending on the context of the conversation.

I agree. I think we shouldn’t put so much stock into a word. Different cultures will use a word how they see fit. If it’s not the N word, a new word will come along and takes it place. What matters more than anything is how we treat people.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
I agree. I think we shouldn’t put so much stock into a word. Different cultures will use a word how they see fit. If it’s not the N word, a new word will come along and takes it place. What matters more than anything is how we treat people.
Thank you.

Re-appropriation happens all the time. Look at how the “B” word is so commonly used amongst women now.
 

Minnesota disney fan

Well-Known Member
Yes it is laughable. I guess we could find something in every cartoon or movie from the past 50 years that "might" be offensive to someone. HOnestly, we played cowboys and Indians when I was a child, and never thought negatively about it. It was FUN! So did my kids and grandkids. None of us has become hateful cowboys or indians because of it, or acted racially wrong.
Come on people, it is a children's movie with the lost boys playing (and yes they were playing, not insiduously plotting to be negative towards Native Americans) Indians in the MOVIE.
We could find things about every movie from the past 50 years that "might" be considered non PC now. None of us has been affected adversely by seeing kids dressing up as Indians, or Cowboys. Children seem to know that it is a Movie. We could make the world vanilla I suspose.
There is a thing such as common sense, that seems to be lacking lately.
 

mandstaft

Well-Known Member
I would disagree with that. Black artists are simply expressing themselves and using lingo we already use within our culture. It’s not up to artists to prevent certain people from using the word. I know plenty of non-black people who listen to black music, are fully aware of the connotations and historical context of the word, and don’t see a problem with not only not repeating the word, but they don’t question why we feel we can use it and others can’t.

Why are we only concerned about the “N” word? There are many “bad” words, but it seems that people only want to get rid of the usage of the “N” word, even though it’s become cultural for the black community. It’s part of our identity, how we communicate with each other, our dialect, but people don’t want us using it. I don’t believe getting rid of the “N” word is not going to somehow re-establish respectful talk. We all code switch. I know when to use it and when not to. There is no disrespect when we are using it with each other, depending on the context of the conversation.
I’m not sure I fully understand, but thank you for explaining it. It helps me learn.

I come from a very verbal half Italian ~ and French and Irish immigrant family. (My parents were the first ones born here.)

Even in our (one of many 😂) heated or lively and friendly family discussions over Sunday dinner together, did I ever once hear our elders or others use one of the many derogatory terms used by others toward us. Nor did we want others to use them. It’s the same now even though I’m an adult.

(And yes, there are way too many words that are bad. Treating people well with respect and honor is what counts.)
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure I fully understand, but thank you for explaining it. It helps me learn.

I come from a very verbal half Italian ~ and French and Irish immigrant family. (My parents were the first ones born here.)

Even in our (one of many 😂) heated or lively and friendly family discussions over Sunday dinner together, did I ever once hear our elders or others use one of the many derogatory terms used by others toward us. Nor did we want others to use them. It’s the same now even though I’m an adult.

(And yes, there are way too many words that are bad. Treating people well with respect and honor is what counts.)
I understand that it can be difficult to understand something you have no experience with. As you stated, you come from a multi-ethnic family that has never used historically derogatory terms regarding your ethnicities. And that’s okay. However, this is simply not the case with black people. As stated in this thread yesterday, black people weren’t referred to as “black” or “African American” up until a few decades ago. Black people spent centuries being referred to as the “N” word, then it eventually evolved into “Negro.” I think to expect for a re-appropriation to not occur here, after centuries, is a bit naive (no offense). The word’s meaning has evolved and changed, particularly within the black community.

I respect your thoughts on the topic.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
Yes it is laughable. I guess we could find something in every cartoon or movie from the past 50 years that "might" be offensive to someone.
So you’re not offended by racism?
HOnestly, we played cowboys and Indians when I was a child, and never thought negatively about it. It was FUN! So did my kids and grandkids. None of us has become hateful cowboys or indians because of it, or acted racially wrong.
You may not have become hateful cowboys, but something about generations of kids playing “cowboys and Indians” might have factored into a society where Native peoples in America are perpetually disadvantaged.
Come on people, it is a children's movie with the lost boys playing (and yes they were playing, not insiduously plotting to be negative towards Native Americans) Indians in the MOVIE.
We could find things about every movie from the past 50 years that "might" be considered non PC now. None of us has been affected adversely by seeing kids dressing up as Indians, or Cowboys. Children seem to know that it is a Movie. We could make the world vanilla I suspose.
There is a thing such as common sense, that seems to be lacking lately.
So you’re saying that racism is needed in our culture, just to keep things interesting? Or that these depictions aren’t racist?

Common sense says that you shouldn’t mock, belittle, and demean others—especially those who‘ve been bullied, exploited, and hurt. But I guess as long as you’re having fun?
 
I just rewatched the entirety of the Peter Pan Indian segments, and while what is or is not offensive is could be debated, there are at least a few things that I think most people would find troubling if they thought about what they were watching on any level. Here are just a few things that stood out to me:

First, why are they even looking for the Indians? Because they want to go hunting, and though animals are suggested, John wants to see the aborigines. To which Peter says "Alright men. Go out and capture a few Indians." So what's the goal here? To antagonize them. In "Following the Leader" they sing:
We're off to fight the Injuns, the Injuns, the Injuns,
We're off to fight the Injuns because he told us so.

Not because the Indians, so far as we know, actually did anything to Peter and the lost boys, but because why not? We're bored. Let's go bother them for fun! And it'll be entertaining for John and Michael, the visiting tourists. Bad implications, and we haven't even met the Indians yet.

But let's get to the actual scenes. Scene 1: the kidnapping scene and aftermath. Times are approximate.
~33:40 Indian tracks spotted. John helpfully points out that they're an Algonquin tribe and they're "quite savage, you know." Immediate response from others? "Let's go get'em." John rejects the idea, not because idea bad, but because they need a strategy.
34:40 John: "Now remember, the Indian is cunning but not intelligent."
35:00 generally speaking if your minority characters don't even have eyes you're not headed in the direction of a positive depiction. View attachment 539420
35:35 Caricatured Indian Chief, check. Broken English, check. "Me no spoof 'em." Eyes that make him appear crazy, check.View attachment 539419

Scene 2.
50:13 First thing the Indians do after making Peter Pan an honorary Indian is pass around drugs.
Chief: "Teach 'em paleface brother all about red man." John, as if he's learning about a rare animal at a zoo: "Good, this should be most enlightening."
50:23 One of the lost boys asks "when did [the red man] first say "Ugh?" Because that's how Indians talk, you know.
I suppose in general you could debate just how offensive the song is, but I think most people would agree it's not great, much in the same way that calling Native Americans red is not really ok anymore (when precisely it became outdated I cannot say, but I'd wager it was before my lifetime and I'm in my thirties), so making a whole song about this is...not great optics. There's a reason that songs like this and "We Are Siamese" are pretty much extinct now.
51:16 Good news, now that they're not trying to kill our heroes, the Indians have gained eyes. The bad news is that they're slits most of the time, noticeably a problem that no non-Indian character in the film has. The only Indian characters to consistently have actual eyes are Tiger Lily and the chief (but he has crazy eyes). Most everyone else looks like this:View attachment 539432~52:10 Wendy's reaction to the boys joining the Indian dances is kinda akin to a horrified mother worrying that her children will lose all that civilized society taught them and "go native."

Just a few things that popped out immediately upon rewatching the scene.

Now, when the Peter Pan story was originally written and the Disney film were made, undoubtedly attitudes were different than they are today, but I can't exactly blame modern audiences for finding fault with that aspect of the finished film.
Thank you for sharing. You were spot on with your analysis.
 

angiebelle

New Member
I say get rid of the Disney princesses because they cast girls in a bad light.

Cinderella cannot do a thing to better herself except keep a shoe. Animals have to do everything - seems like an undue burden on them.

Snow White breaks and enters a house. She's too dumb to recognize the evil Queen. Eats food given to her by a stranger. Worst of all, Snow needs a man to save her life.

I could go on but you get the message. Come on, woke people, do your job.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
I say get rid of the Disney princesses because they cast girls in a bad light.

Cinderella cannot do a thing to better herself except keep a shoe. Animals have to do everything - seems like an undue burden on them.

Snow White breaks and enters a house. She's too dumb to recognize the evil Queen. Eats food given to her by a stranger. Worst of all, Snow needs a man to save her life.

I could go on but you get the message. Come on, woke people, do your job.
Another typical and tired misinterpretation of what we’re discussing.
 

angiebelle

New Member
Another typical and tired misinterpretation of what we’re discussing.
Umm, no. Open your mind and you will understand. You can't pick and choose what is offensive. What offends you might not offend me and vice versa.
Hmm, who opened the parks and allowed these rides, shows, etc. in the first place? That would be Walter Elias Disney. Maybe the parks should go away all together because obviously, he must have been a misogynist racist despicable human being. Is it really fair that we have parks around the world that honor this person?
 

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