Dumbo and Peter Pan rides set for removal?

[Brer Oswald]

Umm, no. Open your mind and you will understand. You can't pick and choose what is offensive. What offends you might not offend me and vice versa.
Hmm, who opened the parks and allowed these rides, shows, etc. in the first place? That would be Walter Elias Disney. Maybe the parks should go away all together because obviously, he must have been a misogynist racist despicable human being. Is it really fair that we have parks around the world that honor this person?

 

[Californian Elitist]

Umm, no. Open your mind and you will understand. You can't pick and choose what is offensive. What offends you might not offend me and vice versa.
Hmm, who opened the parks and allowed these rides, shows, etc. in the first place? That would be Walter Elias Disney. Maybe the parks should go away all together because obviously, he must have been a misogynist racist despicable human being. Is it really fair that we have parks around the world that honor this person?

Umm, yes. All that and you’re still not understanding the conversation we’re having. This entire response is irrelevant.

 

[angiebelle]

Umm, yes. All that and you’re still understanding the conversation we’re having. This entire response is irrelevant.

I'm offended.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I'm offended.

Awesome.

 

[_caleb]

I say get rid of the Disney princesses because they cast girls in a bad light.

Cinderella cannot do a thing to better herself except keep a shoe. Animals have to do everything - seems like an undue burden on them.

Snow White breaks and enters a house. She's too dumb to recognize the evil Queen. Eats food given to her by a stranger. Worst of all, Snow needs a man to save her life.

I could go on but you get the message. Come on, woke people, do your job.

Would you be willing to discuss the matter in good faith? Given how you’ve responded in this post, I take it you don’t agree with changing the parental advisory rating for Peter Pan or Dumbo.

Do you think the depictions of “Indians” or Crows in the films are in any way racially insensitive?

 

[el_super]

Is it really fair that we have parks around the world that honor this person?

Do you really think the park should be closed? That seems pretty extreme. And I am saying this as a certified shut-it-downer.

 

[angiebelle]

Do you really think the park should be closed? That seems pretty extreme. And I am saying this as a certified shut-it-downer.

If Disney fixes the parks by putting up advisories, what will be the next thing that causes a brouhaha? Might as well shut it down. Hans Solo made disparaging remarks about the creatures in a bar. Does this mean that he's a bigot? Should the Star Wars section and resort get shutdown?

My ancestor was sent the the New World as a young boy -12 years old. His ship was raided and boarded by Blackbeard. He eventually escaped by throwing a barrel overboard and floating to shore. Maybe Pirates of the Caribbean should close because God only knows what happened to the poor boy when he was Blackbeard's cabin boy.

There is no end to what might offend people at Disney parks, so shutting them down will take care of the problem - no parks, nothing to offend.

 

[el_super]

There is no end to what might offend people at Disney parks, so shutting them down will take care of the problem - no parks, nothing to offend.

I disagree. Every culture and every generation should have a say on what Disneyland should be.

 

[angiebelle]

I disagree. Every culture and every generation should have a say on what Disneyland should be.

Except for cancel culture?
My post was facetious.

 

[el_super]

Except for cancel culture?
My post was facetious.

Cancel Culture is just a made up buzz word. There's nothing new or different about generations dictating social standards. Goes back at least to the Salem Witch Trials... or maybe even the Spanish Inquisition.

Culture has changed and forced Disneyland to change with it. If we stayed with the park that Walt opened, we would be looking at a park that only allows white kids to work in attractions, and females to fit into a size 12. It will continue to change and adapt far beyond the removals that are occurring now. Such is life.

 

[angiebelle]

Cancel Culture is just a made up buzz word. There's nothing new or different about generations dictating social standards. Goes back at least to the Salem Witch Trials... or maybe even the Spanish Inquisition.

Culture has changed and forced Disneyland to change with it. If we stayed with the park that Walt opened, we would be looking at a park that only allows white kids to work in attractions, and females to fit into a size 12. It will continue to change and adapt far beyond the removals that are occurring now. Such is life.

Whatever, I guess this is what is referred to as willful ignorance. You know exactly what I mean but choose to play dumb.

 

[el_super]

Whatever, I guess this is what is referred to as willful ignorance. You know exactly what I mean but choose to play dumb.

I guess I don't know what you mean... but that's fine.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Whatever, I guess this is what is referred to as willful ignorance. You know exactly what I mean but choose to play dumb.

Do you have anything to contribute to the conversation of how the crows in Dumbo and/or the Native American representation in Peter Pan help perpetuate negative, harmful, and racist stereotypes about black and Native Americans, and how said stereotypes might affect societal beliefs and feelings towards each respective race?

 

[Lynne Moore]

I just rewatched the entirety of the Peter Pan Indian segments, and while what is or is not offensive is could be debated, there are at least a few things that I think most people would find troubling if they thought about what they were watching on any level. Here are just a few things that stood out to me:

First, why are they even looking for the Indians? Because they want to go hunting, and though animals are suggested, John wants to see the aborigines. To which Peter says "Alright men. Go out and capture a few Indians." So what's the goal here? To antagonize them. In "Following the Leader" they sing:
We're off to fight the Injuns, the Injuns, the Injuns,
We're off to fight the Injuns because he told us so.
Not because the Indians, so far as we know, actually did anything to Peter and the lost boys, but because why not? We're bored. Let's go bother them for fun! And it'll be entertaining for John and Michael, the visiting tourists. Bad implications, and we haven't even met the Indians yet.

But let's get to the actual scenes. Scene 1: the kidnapping scene and aftermath. Times are approximate.
~33:40 Indian tracks spotted. John helpfully points out that they're an Algonquin tribe and they're "quite savage, you know." Immediate response from others? "Let's go get'em." John rejects the idea, not because idea bad, but because they need a strategy.
34:40 John: "Now remember, the Indian is cunning but not intelligent."
35:00 generally speaking if your minority characters don't even have eyes you're not headed in the direction of a positive depiction. View attachment 539420
35:35 Caricatured Indian Chief, check. Broken English, check. "Me no spoof 'em." Eyes that make him appear crazy, check.View attachment 539419

Scene 2.
50:13 First thing the Indians do after making Peter Pan an honorary Indian is pass around drugs.
Chief: "Teach 'em paleface brother all about red man." John, as if he's learning about a rare animal at a zoo: "Good, this should be most enlightening."
50:23 One of the lost boys asks "when did [the red man] first say "Ugh?" Because that's how Indians talk, you know.
I suppose in general you could debate just how offensive the song is, but I think most people would agree it's not great, much in the same way that calling Native Americans red is not really ok anymore (when precisely it became outdated I cannot say, but I'd wager it was before my lifetime and I'm in my thirties), so making a whole song about this is...not great optics. There's a reason that songs like this and "We Are Siamese" are pretty much extinct now.
51:16 Good news, now that they're not trying to kill our heroes, the Indians have gained eyes. The bad news is that they're slits most of the time, noticeably a problem that no non-Indian character in the film has. The only Indian characters to consistently have actual eyes are Tiger Lily and the chief (but he has crazy eyes). Most everyone else looks like this:View attachment 539432~52:10 Wendy's reaction to the boys joining the Indian dances is kinda akin to a horrified mother worrying that her children will lose all that civilized society taught them and "go native."

Just a few things that popped out immediately upon rewatching the scene.

Now, when the Peter Pan story was originally written and the Disney film were made, undoubtedly attitudes were different than they are today, but I can't exactly blame modern audiences for finding fault with that aspect of the finished film.

It’s all utter nonsense to me! It only takes one person to come up with this crazy nonsense! I doubt very much that 99.9% of the people that ride Peter Pan think of any of this! Can’t it just be a cute ride that we all love?!!! Come on people!

 

[PiratesMansion]

It’s all utter nonsense to me! It only takes one person to come up with this crazy nonsense! I doubt very much that 99.9% of the people that ride Peter Pan think of any of this! Can’t it just be a cute ride that we all love?!!! Come on people!

I'm but one person pointing something out that has been obvious for some time. Your tone implies I nonsensically invented this when it's clear as day when people watch the film with open eyes. This has all been known for YEARS. DECADES.

I ask again the question I asked to a previous poster: have you actually watched the film recently? Because it's quite clear if you do watch it that the Indian characters are less-than-sensitively depicted.

But really, this hysteria is silly. Changes to the ride are unlikely. If they do change the ride, it's literally fiveish very minor figures that you see for ten seconds. The film still makes Disney plenty of money and isn't going anywhere.

If there's any "crazy nonsense," it's that the idea that film or attraction is being/closed or "cancelled", proposed by people who don't understand and/or are pointedly ignoring the valid reasons that changes in other attractions are taking place, is being treated as a legitimate possibility when there is literally no evidence that that is happening now or is on the horizon other than misplaced hysterical takes and fearmongering. So children under 7 can't choose it on their own D+ profiles anymore. So what? As if that's stopping their family members from buying the thing, switching profiles, or renting it on some other streamer.

The "oh no, they're cancelling it" take just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. On any level.

 

[Californian Elitist]

It’s all utter nonsense to me! It only takes one person to come up with this crazy nonsense! I doubt very much that 99.9% of the people that ride Peter Pan think of any of this! Can’t it just be a cute ride that we all love?!!! Come on people!

It’s the dramatics for me. “It’s utter nonsense to me!”

You do realize that people analyze things and find meaning, including racism, within texts, film, etc. for a living? That students do this in English, sociology, film, etc. classes?? I just finished speaking at an Irish literature conference this morning and one of my colleagues talked about queer topics and homoeroticism in James Joyce’s Ulysses, while providing textual evidence, of course. Give that book to someone with no training and they most likely wouldn’t find what my colleague did. That’s not “nonsense,” that’s lack of training in how to look for things within text that can mean one or other things.

If you think this is the first time the racial undertones in Disney’s Peter Pan, specifically regarding Native Americans, has been brought up and talked about, you are sorely mistaken and decades late.

 

[_caleb]

It’s all utter nonsense to me! It only takes one person to come up with this crazy nonsense! I doubt very much that 99.9% of the people that ride Peter Pan think of any of this! Can’t it just be a cute ride that we all love?!!! Come on people!

What percentage of people recognizing the insensitivity would make you take it seriously?

 

[Lynne Moore]

What percentage of people recognizing the insensitivity would make you take it seriously?

Did you honestly think that it was insensitive until the one person that came up with the idea tried to make it insensitive ?
It’s all utter nonsense to me! It only takes one person to come up with this crazy nonsense! I doubt very much that 99.9% of the people that ride Peter Pan think of any of this! Can’t it just be a cute ride that we all love?!!! Come on people!

 

[Californian Elitist]

Did you honestly think that it was insensitive until the one person that came up with the idea tried to make it insensitive ?
It’s all utter nonsense to me! It only takes one person to come up with this crazy nonsense! I doubt very much that 99.9% of the people that ride Peter Pan think of any of this! Can’t it just be a cute ride that we all love?!!! Come on people!

Who’s that one person?

 

[Ghost93]

I don't think the Peter Pan ride as a whole will be removed, but they can easily remove the Indians from the ride and replace them with something not offensive from the movie. Although if the ride is removed, I won't be too sad. It had a good run. Times change.

Bob Iger actually likes Peter Pan, as he indicated in his "Ride of a Lifetime" book. So I don't think he'll treat it the way he treated Song of the South.