Dueling Dumbo Design Problems?

djkidkaz

Well-Known Member
Here is a picture from June 15. Did you see more tiles removed then this?

765F83E9-3A4D-4ECD-A13E-C818AB1BA24E.JPG

I want to say it looked like more, but I can't be sure.
 

DisneyFan 2000

Well-Known Member
Glad that's fixed. It's like buying a new pair of shoes and complaining the are broken because they hurt your feet before they are broken in.

The subsidized doom society is really scrambling for something to complain about if this is all they got.:rolleyes:
But is this all "they've" got? This isn't just about bad show anymore. If the design as simple as a decades-old spinner is hard to pull off, aren't you just a wee bit concerned about going on something major that requires attention to specific details to ensure your safety? I would be!
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
But is this all "they've" got? This isn't just about bad show anymore. If the design as simple as a decades-old spinner is hard to pull off, aren't you just a wee bit concerned about going on something major that requires attention to specific details to ensure your safety? I would be!

I could be wrong, but I got the feeling from reading posts on this that it was not a design problem, but a construction problem. In that case, I have a concern about that as much as I would any other construction project. I mess up measurements and things all the time when working around the house, though I can't say I'm anywhere near a skilled handyman.
 

rioriz

Well-Known Member
I could be wrong, but I got the feeling from reading posts on this that it was not a design problem, but a construction problem. In that case, I have a concern about that as much as I would any other construction project. I mess up measurements and things all the time when working around the house, though I can't say I'm anywhere near a skilled handyman.

Yup and that is why we have soft openings. I can't imagine the amount of potential design and construction problems Disney has had in the past when doing real world testing that we were never aware of. Unfortunately this one was right in the public eye and fortunately it was caught so the other spinner could be modified before opening.
 

Tom

Beta Return
Yup and that is why we have soft openings. I can't imagine the amount of potential design and construction problems Disney has had in the past when doing real world testing that we were never aware of. Unfortunately this one was right in the public eye and fortunately it was caught so the other spinner could be modified before opening.

I HIGHLY recommend this book (Roller Coasters, Flumes and Flying Saucers) to anyone who's interested in the design and development of most of Disney's (and the world's) original ride systems.

It's basically a giant interview with Ed Morgan and Karl Bacon, who worked hand-in-hand with Walt and his "Imagineers" to develop the ride systems for things like the Matterhorn (the invention of tube-steel coasters), flumes and water propelled boat rides (i.e. Small World) and many other ride systems that have been the basis of design for theme parks everywhere.

The trials and tribulations they went through are fascinating to read about. Even after lots and lots of testing, things failed miserably on opening day. If the internet existed when Disneyland opened...and some of the members of this forum were around to comment...Disneyland would have been coined as the biggest failure in the history of the world.

Things like Dumbo's scraped knees shouldn't happen, but guess what? Construction projects are never perfect. Sometimes physics does things that computer models can't predict, or that can't be tested prior to actually putting people on the thing. Just be glad people aren't getting hurt - just some scraped fiberglass.
 

Tom

Beta Return
After a thorough review of the construction plans for Dumbo, the design clearly allowed adequate space between the Dumbo shells and the pit walls.

The MOST logical explanation is that the spinner(s) was/were not perfectly centered in the pit. The radius from the dead center of the pit to the inside face of the wall where it turns up to loading level is 27'-3". That's a 54'-6" diameter pit, and the construction plans show at least 3" of clearance from Dumbo's knees to the pit walls.

However, the construction plans do not identify the decorative tile on the two walls of the water pits under the vehicles. They were originally to just be painted concrete. Perhaps that tile was added as an afterthought. But still, with the grout and tile, that's 1/4" maximum. There was more clearance designed than that.

So again, there's a 90% chance the spinner isn't centered in the pit....or the pit isn't perfectly circular.
 

rcapolete

Active Member
I think we are all missing the most practical of solutions. Remove all the Dumbos and replace them with Flying Stitches.
Sorry couldn't resist
 

mickeysbrother

Well-Known Member
I believe in school they taught us that circles and never perfect circles... There will always be something off.. Or its just been such a long time and i wasn't clearly listening in class :lookaroud:
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
I believe in school they taught us that circles and never perfect circles... There will always be something off.. Or its just been such a long time and i wasn't clearly listening in class :lookaroud:
I don't think that imperfections to the microscopic degree would interfere with the spinner, which is what that theorem refers to. This imperfection appears to be more along the lines of human error, as @edwardtc has pointed out
 

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
After a thorough review of the construction plans for Dumbo, the design clearly allowed adequate space between the Dumbo shells and the pit walls.

The MOST logical explanation is that the spinner(s) was/were not perfectly centered in the pit. The radius from the dead center of the pit to the inside face of the wall where it turns up to loading level is 27'-3". That's a 54'-6" diameter pit, and the construction plans show at least 3" of clearance from Dumbo's knees to the pit walls.

However, the construction plans do not identify the decorative tile on the two walls of the water pits under the vehicles. They were originally to just be painted concrete. Perhaps that tile was added as an afterthought. But still, with the grout and tile, that's 1/4" maximum. There was more clearance designed than that.

Interestingly, for safety reasons, I bet that the Dumbos has to have 3 inches of clearance, as they don't now . . . OSHA could theoretically shut them down.

So again, there's a 90% chance the spinner isn't centered in the pit....or the pit isn't perfectly circular.

Thank you very much for posting the technical info.

I was pretty sure the plans would have something like 2-3 inches of clearance, given that metal expands and contracts in different temperatures. The fact that the tiles scrapped against Dumbo means that there is no clearance. Remove the tiles and you still got too close a fit. The metal could expand, or something, like a branch or something could get in between the wall and the Dubmo and gum it up again. Unlikely, but could theoretically happen.

Here's what could happen later, you get a heat wave, and the next day when the Dumbo is fired up, there is a scrapping sound, but they run it anyway, the whole thing heats up and a millimeter of expansion happens again and the Dumbos start scraping, or worse and unlikely, the side of a Dumbo is ripped off injuring guests. The spinner motor is a very powerful motor . . .
 

Tom

Beta Return
Thank you very much for posting the technical info.

I was pretty sure the plans would have something like 2-3 inches of clearance, given that metal expands and contracts in different temperatures. The fact that the tiles scrapped against Dumbo means that there is no clearance. Remove the tiles and you still got too close a fit. The metal could expand, or something, like a branch or something could get in between the wall and the Dubmo and gum it up again. Unlikely, but could theoretically happen.

Here's what could happen later, you get a heat wave, and the next day when the Dumbo is fired up, there is a scrapping sound, but they run it anyway, the whole thing heats up and a millimeter of expansion happens again and the Dumbos start scraping, or worse and unlikely, the side of a Dumbo is ripped off injuring guests. The spinner motor is a very powerful motor . . .

Right. The spinner is probably just off center, or out of balance.

For the record, you must have added the line about OSHA to my post when quoting it, because I didn't type that.

People tend to use OSHA when they really mean DOT or another jurisdiction. OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Act/Administration. OSHA only protects employees. They have no jurisdiction when it comes to protecting guests from broken rides, but they do have jurisdiction if a Disney employee is in jeopardy due to an actual OSHA violation.

I don't know which jurisdiction actually has authority of amusements in Florida. Here, in Indiana, the Department of Homeland Security governs all that crap - like amusements, carnivals, buildings, public safety, etc.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Right. The spinner is probably just off center, or out of balance.

For the record, you must have added the line about OSHA to my post when quoting it, because I didn't type that.

People tend to use OSHA when they really mean DOT or another jurisdiction. OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Act/Administration. OSHA only protects employees. They have no jurisdiction when it comes to protecting guests from broken rides, but they do have jurisdiction if a Disney employee is in jeopardy due to an actual OSHA violation.

I don't know which jurisdiction actually has authority of amusements in Florida. Here, in Indiana, the Department of Homeland Security governs all that crap - like amusements, carnivals, buildings, public safety, etc.

The OSHA act enables, and encourages states to setup their own state plan version of OSHA. In Cali, CalOSHA does actually regulate and certify the amusement industry. If it's employee or guest safety, the laws really don't distinquish for Cali as I recall, as basically 99% of the stuff is 'the ride must be operated as designed', 'the ride must confirm to industry standards', 'processes must be documented and followed', etc, type language.

Florida does not seem to have a state plan, and instead amusements are licensed and regulated by the state agrigulture dept
http://www.freshfromflorida.com/onestop/std/fairride.html

There is a link to the applicable FL laws too.

But I agree with your general gist - people start throwing the term OSHA around like it's candy :)
 

Tom

Beta Return
The OSHA act enables, and encourages states to setup their own state plan version of OSHA. In Cali, CalOSHA does actually regulate and certify the amusement industry. If it's employee or guest safety, the laws really don't distinquish for Cali as I recall, as basically 99% of the stuff is 'the ride must be operated as designed', 'the ride must confirm to industry standards', 'processes must be documented and followed', etc, type language.

Florida does not seem to have a state plan, and instead amusements are licensed and regulated by the state agrigulture dept
http://www.freshfromflorida.com/onestop/std/fairride.html

There is a link to the applicable FL laws too.

But I agree with your general gist - people start throwing the term OSHA around like it's candy :)

Here in Indiana it's just IOSHA, with the I standing for Indiana. We don't really have amusement parks (except Holiday World, which is probably just overseen by the Dept of Homeland Security somehow), so OSHA covers General Industry and Construction....with a few other specialties thrown in, I'm sure.

Regardless, you understood my point that people use the term OSHA loosely, when it's likely another authority having jurisdiction. For the most part, OSHA simply protects employees from hazards as a result of their job.
 

Neverland

Active Member
To my knowledge, Dumbo opened with skinned knees. I believe the construction error was identified and fixed when it was still in testing, and the knees just hadn't been buffed by the soft opening. Dumbo never scraped the pit with actual guests on the attraction.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
To my knowledge, Dumbo opened with skinned knees. I believe the construction error was identified and fixed when it was still in testing, and the knees just hadn't been buffed by the soft opening. Dumbo never scraped the pit with actual guests on the attraction.
Interesting, thanks for the info.
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
To my knowledge, Dumbo opened with skinned knees. I believe the construction error was identified and fixed when it was still in testing, and the knees just hadn't been buffed by the soft opening. Dumbo never scraped the pit with actual guests on the attraction.
You would think that they would have repaired the signs of problem before opening it up to guests. Instead, they rushed it open and showed us how poorly constructed their design became.

It's EE all over again. I bet the knees NEVER get repaired. Why bother? The precedent has already been set...the guests will ride it anyway.
 

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