Do you want to build a new resort?

[MA Screamin']

What's the fourth gate? And I'd like the MK-style park (preferrably Fantasyland - my own giant version of it )

Here's my concept for the MK-style park... keep fantasy in the MK, and leave realism/minimal IP usage to the other gates

There is no fourth gate, just the shopping district. You, JDM and Wegerter with help from Matt are going to be working on Magic Kingdom (if you go with that name, I always thought Disneyland Down Under sounded nice, but your choice entirely).

If I may suggest a general idea for MK: personally, I think the structure in terms of themes and hub-and-spoke is great and shouldn't be turned on its' head. Rather, leave the individuality for the content. Add the outback/history land and sci-fi city for Tomorrowland. I love the sound of Gardens of Imagination (but EPCOT may or may not use him), as well as Hero's Harbor (Greek, I premise, with the exception of Robin Hood?), but incorporate them into the traditional lands (quality vs. quantity is another major discussion point). The formula works. This is just a suggestion though, best of luck!

 

[mahnamahna101]

There is no fourth gate, just the shopping district. You, JDM and Wegerter with help from Matt are going to be working on Magic Kingdom (if you go with that name, I always thought Disneyland Down Under sounded nice, but your choice entirely).

If I may suggest a general idea for MK: personally, I think the structure in terms of themes and hub-and-spoke is great and shouldn't be turned on its' head. Rather, leave the individuality for the content. Add the outback/history land and sci-fi city for Tomorrowland. I love the sound of Gardens of Imagination (but EPCOT may or may not use him), as well as Hero's Harbor (Greek, I premise, with the exception of Robin Hood?), but incorporate them into the traditional lands (quality vs. quantity is another major discussion point). The formula works. This is just a suggestion though, best of luck!

I was trying to do that a little bit (Pirates, Mysterious Jungle & Hero's Harbor for Adventureland, Outback could work for Frontierland/Liberty Square, Shadowlands, Storybook Village and Dumbo's Circus for Fantasyland, Sci-Fi City for Tomorrowland)

I also thought Pixar could use its own land since they're fairly fantastical and keeping fantasy and reality separate is a great way to keep the parks thematically sound. But really, anything we go with for Disneyland Down Under (great name!) is up to what all four of us decide!

Honestly, I just thought Figment fits better in Magic Kingdom than EPCOT's futuristic vibe. Maybe Duffy Bear as the host?

 

[Wegerter]

I agree with @MA Screamin'. Figment is better fit for EPCOT. I am a little unsure about how Hero's harbor fits into the Magic Kingdom. Also I'm not opposed to having an American version of frontierland, but I think most people want an Aussie history land instead. It might be better to drop the folk country Idea.

I like the thought of adding Peter Pan to adventure land instead of fantasyland, it would make a nice transition between the two. I also like the inclusion of Toy Story in dumbo's Circus.

 

[mahnamahna101]

I agree with @MA Screamin'. Figment is better fit for EPCOT. I am a little unsure about how Hero's harbor fits into the Magic Kingdom. Also I'm not opposed to having an American version of frontierland, but I think most people want an Aussie history land instead. It might be better to drop the folk country Idea.

I like the thought of adding Peter Pan to adventure land instead of fantasyland, it would make a nice transition between the two. I also like the inclusion of Toy Story in dumbo's Circus.

Outback is a better idea - Plus, Finding Nemo and The Rescuers would be good for rides.

Hero's Harbor would take the Arabian/Greek aspect of adventure and apply the mythological aspect of fantasy. Aladdin, Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, Sinbad, etc. My idea is basically every area having a fantastical element whereas in older MK-style parks, Frontierland, Adventureland, Liberty, and Tomorrowland were more realistic. Instead of Adventureland, we get a Pirate Cove, Hero's Harbor, and Mysterious Jungle. Outback could be connected to Mysterious Jungle, since Lion King has the African savannah. Shadowlands would be a built-out Liberty Square in essence - Tower of Terror, a new Haunted Mansion, Bald Mountain, Nightmare Before Christmas ride, Sleepy Hollow show.

It would make the park different and give guests a reason to go out of their way to visit this particular version. It would make Disneyland Down Under stick out. Also, the areas wouldn't have "land" in the name finally.

1. Gardens of Imagination (Once Upon a Time trackless dark ride in place of Imagination Institute)
2. Pirate Cove
3. Mysterious Jungle
4. Hero's Harbor
5. The Outback
6. Shadowlands
7. Storybook Village
8. Dumbo's Circus
9. Pixar Place/Toontown (haven't decided which one, or if they should be in the park)
10. Sci-Fi City

 

[MA Screamin']

@mahnamahna101 Maybe you could condense all of those lands into mini-lands under the heading of the traditional Disneyland names. I think just the amount of ten lands could overwhelm guests, yet they all seem very good.

So, Fantasyland would be Storybook, Dumbo's, and Toontown (check out the Mickeyville concept... could work out great! An alternate could recreate a Hollywood/1920's like Toontown that could maybe blend with Shadowlands... guessing Mickeyville could do the same.), Adventureland being Cove, Jungle, and the Harbor (I was looking to use Mysterious Island and a little Indy for DisneyEarth, but you want it use it too, we can cut things once we both have a good draft concept), Shadowlands, Outback, and Tomorrowland (with maybe World's Fair / New Tomorrowland elements in terms of feel, but sci-fi city all the way!) So, just 5 lands, but what about your Main Street? Also, I don't like a whole Pixar Place, too many clashing themes and little cohesiveness. But Toy Story in Dumbo's could work, maybe tweak their backstories a little to better fit the theme.

 

[mahnamahna101]

@mahnamahna101 Maybe you could condense all of those lands into mini-lands under the heading of the traditional Disneyland names. I think just the amount of ten lands could overwhelm guests, yet they all seem very good.

So, Fantasyland would be Storybook, Dumbo's, and Toontown (check out the Mickeyville concept... could work out great! An alternate could recreate a Hollywood/1920's like Toontown that could maybe blend with Shadowlands... guessing Mickeyville could do the same.), Adventureland being Cove, Jungle, and the Harbor (I was looking to use Mysterious Island and a little Indy for DisneyEarth, but you want it use it too, we can cut things once we both have a good draft concept), Shadowlands, Outback, and Tomorrowland (with maybe World's Fair / New Tomorrowland elements in terms of feel, but sci-fi city all the way!) So, just 5 lands, but what about your Main Street? Also, I don't like a whole Pixar Place, too many clashing themes and little cohesiveness. But Toy Story in Dumbo's could work, maybe tweak their backstories a little to better fit the theme.

Well, I wasn't planning on Indiana Jones being in the park. But Mysterious Island definitely can be moved to the other gate. If you wanted to, Discovery Bay might work for DisneyEarth as well. And I'd be willing to use an original IP or different franchise instead of Toy Story... just have to find the right one!

Mickeyville could work really well - I'll go with it.

Main Street could replace Gardens of Imagination since I don't really see having a street, then the gardens.

1. Main Street USA
2. Adventureland (divided into 3 sections)
3. Outback
4. Shadowlands
5. Fantasyland (divided into 3 sections)
6. Sci-Fi City (divided into 2 sections - extraterrestrial/cosmic, idealistic city of tomorrow)

 

[Wegerter]

Could you explain the shadowlands concept better? I don't think I fully understand it.

 

[mahnamahna101]

Shadowlands would essentially be the Horror-based fantasy of our wildest nightmares. Tower of Terror, a new version of Haunted Mansion, Sleepy Hollow, Nightmare Before Christmas, and the icon of the land - Bald Mountain - all spook and frighten guests. I didn't like the idea of a Villains area, but I definitely feel a darker area would be a great contrast to the usual whimsy. It could transition between Outback and Dumbo's Circus fairly well. It'd also be home to a new state-of-the-art dark ride concept which combines the Spider-Man/Transformers ride system with Test Track technology and the AAs/sets Disney is known for to bring Bald Mountain to life.

Dark humor like current incarnations of Haunted Mansion could be included to keep the area from being perceived as too scary. Plus, in order to differentiate from previous MKs, the park should attempt to balance thrills and family fun. Rides above a 40" height requirement aren't a bad thing, and can often tell stories impossible to be accurately depicted with a gentle dark ride.

 

[LittleGiants16]

Is it a great idea to turn a proven concept on its head? After all, there's a reason that all five global resorts have a traditional MK park.

 

[mahnamahna101]

Is it a great idea to turn a proven concept on its head? After all, there's a reason that all five global resorts have a traditional MK park.

That's what Walt wanted to do with Florida's MK, and what is currently happening with Shanghai Disneyland. Making an exact clone of MK is... boring. Walt always wanted to try new things... in fact, he didn't even want to build MK initially and only agreed to it to get the funds to build his EPCOT.

My idea is to keep Adventureland & Fantasyland thematically sound by dividing them up into 3 sections because both tend to be a hodgepodge of ideas. Pirates' Cove, Mysterious Jungle and Hero's Harbor are three distinct regions within Adventureland's borders. Storybook Village, Dumbo's Circus, and Mickeyville all encompass Fantasyland. Tomorrowland is replaced by Sci-Fi City to keep the land thematically sound and give the Tomorrowland concept some unity.

There's still a Magic Kingdom... Main Street's there, the castle's there, the hub and spokes layout will be there, most of the classic attractions will be represented in some form. Outback is similar to Frontierland, while Shadowlands takes Liberty Square and transforms it into a Horror-based land. The only difference is a clear vision for what each section of the park will be. Adventureland is far too broad, but divided into 3 sections, it is clear what kinds of attractions can go into this area. Fantasyland is easier to make when divided into Dumbo's Circus, Storybook Village, and Mickeyville. Sci-Fi City finally allows the futuristic area of the park to truly shine. Outback and Shadowlands allow for some originality and unique concepts to shine through, as do Sci-Fi City.

Shanghai is already extremely different from previous parks... my idea isn't terribly far from the original MK-style gates - just a bold vision to organize the park in the best way possible.

 

[LittleGiants16]

That's what Walt wanted to do with Florida's MK, and what is currently happening with Shanghai Disneyland. Making an exact clone of MK is... boring. Walt always wanted to try new things... in fact, he didn't even want to build MK initially and only agreed to it to get the funds to build his EPCOT.

My idea is to keep Adventureland & Fantasyland thematically sound by dividing them up into 3 sections because both tend to be a hodgepodge of ideas. Pirates' Cove, Mysterious Jungle and Hero's Harbor are three distinct regions within Adventureland's borders. Storybook Village, Dumbo's Circus, and Mickeyville all encompass Fantasyland. Tomorrowland is replaced by Sci-Fi City to keep the land thematically sound and give the Tomorrowland concept some unity.

There's still a Magic Kingdom... Main Street's there, the castle's there, the hub and spokes layout will be there, most of the classic attractions will be represented in some form. Outback is similar to Frontierland, while Shadowlands takes Liberty Square and transforms it into a Horror-based land. The only difference is a clear vision for what each section of the park will be. Adventureland is far too broad, but divided into 3 sections, it is clear what kinds of attractions can go into this area. Fantasyland is easier to make when divided into Dumbo's Circus, Storybook Village, and Mickeyville. Sci-Fi City finally allows the futuristic area of the park to truly shine. Outback and Shadowlands allow for some originality and unique concepts to shine through, as do Sci-Fi City.

Shanghai is already extremely different from previous parks... my idea isn't terribly far from the original MK-style gates - just a bold vision to organize the park in the best way possible.

My only retort to this is that none of us are Walt Disney. He could have easily gotten away with building something different because the public would have still come. If the name of Walt Disney was attached to it, the masses would have come in droves. But that name doesn't carry quite the same weight anymore. There's a reason that four of the five Disneyland-style parks are in the top six of global attendance, and it's not just because of the Disney name. Take a look at resort around the world with multiple parks. No matter where you look, the Disneyland-style parks have significantly more attendance than their counterparts. Even in Tokyo, TDL get two million more people through the gate each year than TDS. It's just a fact, people grow up hearing about Space Mountain and IASW, not Maelstrom and that god-awful show about Nemo. There's a reason the Disney company has recycled the same concepts time and time again (perhaps because they make a lot of money?). Now, I'm not trying to say that ever park needs to be a carbon copy of MK or DL, because they don't. Parks should have their own character and unique attributes. If you look at the DL-style parks around the world, each one is slightly different than the next. But each is similar enough to each other as to draw the local populations to the park. In conclusion, I'm not trying to advocate that you make a carbon copy of Disneyland. There should be something fresh and new in any park that is built. All I hope to caution you on is to not reinvent the wheel too much. I hope I'm not becoming too much of a burden on all of you. I am simply trying to provide you all with new challenges that go beyond the idea phase of the business. After all, it's easy to come up with fresh concepts for rides and parks. The challenge of being an imagineer lies in determining whether your ideas would be commercially viable.

 

[mahnamahna101]

My only retort to this is that none of us are Walt Disney. He could have easily gotten away with building something different because the public would have still come. If the name of Walt Disney was attached to it, the masses would have come in droves. But that name doesn't carry quite the same weight anymore. There's a reason that four of the five Disneyland-style parks are in the top six of global attendance, and it's not just because of the Disney name. Take a look at resort around the world with multiple parks. No matter where you look, the Disneyland-style parks have significantly more attendance than their counterparts. Even in Tokyo, TDL get two million more people through the gate each year than TDS. It's just a fact, people grow up hearing about Space Mountain and IASW, not Maelstrom and that god-awful show about Nemo. There's a reason the Disney company has recycled the same concepts time and time again (perhaps because they make a lot of money?). Now, I'm not trying to say that ever park needs to be a carbon copy of MK or DL, because they don't. Parks should have their own character and unique attributes. If you look at the DL-style parks around the world, each one is slightly different than the next. But each is similar enough to each other as to draw the local populations to the park. In conclusion, I'm not trying to advocate that you make a carbon copy of Disneyland. There should be something fresh and new in any park that is built. All I hope to caution you on is to not reinvent the wheel too much. I hope I'm not becoming too much of a burden on all of you. I am simply trying to provide you all with new challenges that go beyond the idea phase of the business. After all, it's easy to come up with fresh concepts for rides and parks. The challenge of being an imagineer lies in determining whether your ideas would be commercially viable.

I understand that the Disneyland-style parks get the most attendance. And I am mainly sticking to the formula. The only difference is that Adventureland and Fantasyland will be divided up into 3 sections each. This makes it easier to organize both of their themes. Outback is similar to Frontierland, while Shadowlands would be the main element that differentiates from the typical Disneyland gate - I truly feel an area that leans toward the spooky/eerie side would have high appeal with older visitors in a park that primarily aims at young children. IASW, Main Street, the castle, Space Mountain, the Fantasyland dark rides, Dumbo, Tea Cups, carousel, etc. will all be there in some form. The only difference is the areas will be divided up into a more concise, easily transitioned park. Each land except Main Street will have a mountain. Each land will be grouped into mini-lands/sections to provide the best possible transition. I respect the Magic Kingdom, but realize there's some room for improvement (Adventureland and Fantasyland organization, along with Tomorrowland unity being the main issues IMO). I feel my plan allows each area to shine and mesh with its surroundings.

Main Street USA (similar to usual concept, but maybe a Walt Disney dark ride in Town Square? There should be something more substantial considering how many people tend to loiter around this area)

Adventureland (with 3 sections) - Adventure is too broad of an envelope. Pirates, jungle cruises, magic carpets, tiki rooms, and temples weren't all meant to be crammed into the bottom left corner of the park without room to transition.

1. Pirate Cove (POTC and Peter Pan)
2. Mysterious Jungle (Jungle Cruise, Jungle Book, Lion King, Tarzan, Tiki Room)
3. Hero's Harbor (Aladdin, Hercules, Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts, Homer's Odyssey)

Outback (Australian frontier) - someone else can work on this land since I have little knowledge about Australia

Shadowlands (horror/spooky) - I always felt a creepier land would be right up Disney's alley. Nightmare Before Christmas, Tower of Terror, Haunted Mansion, Sleepy Hollow, and Bald Mountain would make for a killer land as far as mass appeal goes. More importantly, it would give teens more options for attractions.

Fantasyland (divided into 3 sections)

1. Dumbo's Circus (a old concept planned for where Toontown in DL currently stands - Dumbo and Pinocchio)
2. Mickeyville (a fleshed-out medieval version of Toontown - Mickey and Friends)
3. Storybook Village (basically the current Fantasyland, but no Dumbo or Peter Pan... this area would be divided into mini-lands - Mary Poppins, 101 and Mr. Toad in a London mini-land, Pooh and Wonderland get mini-lands, the Princesses get their own mini-land, Arendale gets a separate mini-land, storybook/candy as the rest, etc)

Tomorrowland (potentially divided into 2 sections unless Sci-Fi City is preferred over Tomorrowland)

1. Cosmic Bay (TRON, Stitch, WALL-E, Star Wars, Space Mountain, Avengers/GotG, Hero's Duty, etc)
2. Progress City (a retro-futuristic city that is a demonstration of what man can potentially accomplish - completely free of any IP usage)

By organizing the park into sections within the broader "lands", it allows for more concise planning and better transitions for the park as a whole

 

[Wegerter]

I have always liked the mini lands but it should be something like storybook circus. It should not be an official land like liberty Square but and unofficial land.

I think with shadowlands we could make it a mini park. It could be something like a discovery cove where they only let a few hundred people in at a time. It would also be cool if you could only access it by boat.

The haunted mansion could be moved to Main Street USA

 

[mahnamahna101]

I have always liked the mini lands but it should be something like storybook circus. It should not be an official land like liberty Square but and unofficial land.

I think with shadowlands we could make it a mini park. It could be something like a discovery cove where they only let a few hundred people in at a time. It would also be cool if you could only access it by boat.

The haunted mansion could be moved to Main Street USA

Why? Shadowlands would be 4 to 5 attractions, provide a place that appeals to thrill seekers/teens, and could easily help differentiate between gates... and there's no animals to see so it would be nothing like Discovery Cove. Shadowlands would be a full-fledged area on the horror side of the spectrum.

And that's precisely what I mean - unofficial lands within the actual land itself.

 

[Wegerter]

Or a water park

I have always liked the mini lands but it should be something like storybook circus. It should not be an official land like liberty Square but and unofficial land.

I think with shadowlands we could make it a mini park. It could be something like a discovery cove where they only let a few hundred people in at a time. It would also be cool if you could only access it by boat.

The haunted mansion could be moved to Main Street USA

 

[Wegerter]

I just feel that going over the top scary would make no one want to come into that area to the park except teens. This style park was designed to appeal to families not just teens. There should only be attractions where entire families can ride together

Why? Shadowlands would be 4 to 5 attractions, provide a place that appeals to thrill seekers/teens, and could easily help differentiate between gates... and there's no animals to see so it would be nothing like Discovery Cove. Shadowlands would be a full-fledged area on the horror side of the spectrum.

And that's precisely what I mean - unofficial lands within the actual land itself.

 

[mahnamahna101]

I just feel that going over the top scary would make no one want to come into that area to the park except teens. This style park was designed to appeal to families not just teens. There should only be attractions where entire families can ride together

It wouldn't be over the top... Tower of Terror and Bald Mountain would be the only truly "scary" attractions. Haunted Mansion would be a playfully over-the-top ride with light spooks, Nightmare Before Christmas is more weird than scary, and Sleepy Hollow could have comedic elements. Even ToT and Bald Mountain could have some dark humor to lighten up the ride experience. There wouldn't be haunted houses or scare zones like Universal does during HHN more of a playful "gotcha" scare.

Again, teens are forced by their families to come to MK-style parks. What does the 12 yr old with 3 and 5 yr old siblings do? Ride all ages dark rides all day. That can get tiresome. Big Thunder, Space, Splash, Star Tours, Indiana Jones Adventure, SDMT, soon to be Soarin', soon to be Lost World Rapids and Tron Lightcycle Power Run as well, Barnstormer, Gadget's Go Coaster, Stitch, Matterhorn and Tomorrowland Speedway are all attractions at Disneyland-style parks that aren't all-ages. They have height requirements. The scare factor would be subtle... just a slightly creepy atmosphere with some well-themed attractions based on some of Disney's spookier IPs.

ToT - 40"
Bald Mountain - 48"
Haunted Mansion style dark ride - all ages
Nightmare Before Christmas show- all ages
Sleepy Hollow flat ride- all ages

60% would be accessible to everyone. Disney was designed for everyone, not just little kids. A 65% family/35% thrills would be a perfect balance. And I've seen plenty of kids/adults going on ToT. Nightmare Before Christmas is hugely popular in the Haunted Mansion overlay Disneyland does every Halloween/Christmas. Bald Mountain would finally give Fantasia some representation. Sleepy Hollow is a classic story and based on a Disney film. This would simply provide an area for IPs too creepy/strange for Fantasyland.

 

[mahnamahna101]

Or a water park

Shadowlands a water park? Did you not read my idea for it?

 

[Wegerter]

It wouldn't be over the top... Tower of Terror and Bald Mountain would be the only truly "scary" attractions. Haunted Mansion would be a playfully over-the-top ride with light spooks, Nightmare Before Christmas is more weird than scary, and Sleepy Hollow could have comedic elements. Even ToT and Bald Mountain could have some dark humor to lighten up the ride experience. There wouldn't be haunted houses or scare zones like Universal does during HHN more of a playful "gotcha" scare.

Again, teens are forced by their families to come to MK-style parks. What does the 12 yr old with 3 and 5 yr old siblings do? Ride all ages dark rides all day. That can get tiresome. Big Thunder, Space, Splash, Star Tours, Indiana Jones Adventure, SDMT, soon to be Soarin', soon to be Lost World Rapids and Tron Lightcycle Power Run as well, Barnstormer, Gadget's Go Coaster, Stitch, Matterhorn and Tomorrowland Speedway are all attractions at Disneyland-style parks that aren't all-ages. They have height requirements. The scare factor would be subtle... just a slightly creepy atmosphere with some well-themed attractions based on some of Disney's spookier IPs.

ToT - 40"
Bald Mountain - 48"
Haunted Mansion style dark ride - all ages
Nightmare Before Christmas show- all ages
Sleepy Hollow flat ride- all ages

60% would be accessible to everyone. Disney was designed for everyone, not just little kids. A 65% family/35% thrills would be a perfect balance. And I've seen plenty of kids/adults going on ToT. Nightmare Before Christmas is hugely popular in the Haunted Mansion overlay Disneyland does every Halloween/Christmas. Bald Mountain would finally give Fantasia some representation. Sleepy Hollow is a classic story and based on a Disney film. This would simply provide an area for IPs too creepy/strange for Fantasyland.

Ok that makes me feel better about the land. Would this be located behind fantasyland or will it have it's own spoke

 

[mahnamahna101]

Ok that makes me feel better about the land. Would this be located behind fantasyland or will it have it's own spoke

Behind Fantasyland... Adventureland, Fantasyland and Tomorrowland woukl be the three with a spoke since they'll be the large areas.

Also, Monsters Inc. could potentially fit into Shadowlands to provide something more light-hearted for the area. Maybe a play area or Fantasyland-style dark ride.