Distinction between "theme park enthusiast" and "Disney Adult"

[Poseidon Quest]

No, it's dogmatic purism, Martin. You and your ilk seem to believe Epcot has to adhere to its original form and refuse to accept or even consider change.

No, Epcot is a truly bad park in its current form, propped up financially by food festivals. If it weren't for the reservation system, I think that Disney may actually have an issue with populating the park.

EPCOT Center's first decade of attractions were some of the best ever created. I don't think I've ever seen rides so unique or interesting since. That's not to say that Disney should tear the park down and rebuild those attractions, but it needs to progress in a way that continues that Disney tradition of excellence and attention to detail. Epcot as a park no longer has a theme, other than becoming a generic kitchen sink of poorly implemented IP. Remy is mediocre, Frozen is poor and Cosmic Rewind is a nice Space Mountain that makes no sense for Epcot and could exist entirely independent of the Guardians of the Galaxy slapped onto it. The rest of the park is just dated project Gemini additions that haven't been maintained or have aged poorly. Why does this park need some Moana walk-through water attraction? Disney can't even tell us what it is.

Epcot is just a dead empty shell, filled with superficial additions by management that doesn't know how to address the issues the park faces. It's clear that there is no creativity left in the Disney company any longer if they can't think of interesting and compelling attractions for a place like Epcot. There are so many interesting options out there, yet the best they can do is slap some characters onto some half-baked rides.

 

[UNCgolf]

No, it's dogmatic purism, Martin. You and your ilk seem to believe Epcot has to adhere to its original form and refuse to accept or even consider change.

You've been ignoring people who would disprove this assertion. Disney hasn't made a single IP addition that really fits the park, even though they could have easily done so.

You're setting up straw men rather than actually engaging in discussion with anyone.

 

[celluloid]

A Disney Enthusiast is liking Disney and what they have done. The experiences, the entertainment and history.

A Disney Adult, in a negative sense, is a lifestyle, and displaying Disney referencing Disney, what the parks have certainly turned into. Disney used to be themed to experiences and connected to them. Now Disney is themed to "Disney."



On the EPCOT purism comment: It is funny, because one of my favorite attractions starred a bunch of SNL and pop culture comedians, had a still of Ernest P Worrell in the preshow, self referenced Disney World and Walt's Brain on a graphic and displayed the Abstract of thought in an Animated Short sensibility, yet with sincerity. Guardians and Ratt could have done that easily, but chose not to.

It fit right in. So let's cut the labeling of EPCOT purism. It just needs to keep the message of what it is saying it sets out to do. Otherwise, you don't have the same park anymore.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

No, it's dogmatic purism, Martin. You and your ilk seem to believe Epcot has to adhere to its original form and refuse to accept or even consider change.

It really isn't.

The issue people take isn't that EPCOT is changing. The issue is that so, so many of the changes in the last 25 years are just worse than what they replaced, and only very rarely have any come along that are genuinely better than what was there before. That's an issue at any park, and it's happened at basically every Disney Park at one point or another, but none so chronically as EPCOT.

It has compounded to the point where the park is a confusing array of disconnected elements lumped in one gate with hardly any perceptible binding logic. Personally, I could absolutely get behind a fresh new take on EPCOT that washes its hands of the parks original intentions . . . on the condition that the new park actually be good. Instead we keep getting get weird hackjob mishmashes that intersperse original 1982 constructions with contemporary properties without any real connective tissue between the two. This despite a Billion dollars being poured into the park.

People don't really expect them to follow the same idea that guided them in 1982 - they've proved long ago that isn't happening. But should have some idea to follow. And preferably a good one. Right now EPCOT's a theme park without the theme.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Looking at attendance it’s easy to see why they they are trying to make Epcot more like MK, one draws 20 million guests, the other draws 10 million.

Cosmic Rewind is the only ride I have an issue with, Remy works in France, Frozen works in Norway… cosmic rewind though? it makes no sense. They could have used that money to give us the Mt Fuji coaster in Japan and had the same attendance impact without the backlash.

I get what they’re doing, I just don’t like the execution with Cosmic rewind, it‘s an incredible ride and would have been an amazing addition to HS or even MK, it just doesn’t fit in Epcot, the other IPs have fit in my opinion though.

 

[Chi84]

It really isn't.

The issue people take isn't that EPCOT is changing. The issue is that so, so many of the changes in the last 25 years are just worse than what they replaced, and only very rarely have any come along that are genuinely better than what was there before. That's an issue at any park, and it's happened at basically every Disney Park at one point or another, but none so chronically as EPCOT.

It has compounded to the point where the park is a confusing array of disconnected elements lumped in one gate with hardly any perceptible binding logic. Personally, I could absolutely get behind a fresh new take on EPCOT that washes its hands of the parks original intentions . . . on the condition that the new park actually be good. Instead we keep getting get weird hackjob mishmashes that intersperse original 1982 constructions with contemporary properties without any real connective tissue between the two. This despite a Billion dollars being poured into the park.

People don't really expect them to follow the same idea that guided them in 1982 - they've proved long ago that isn't happening. But should have some idea to follow. And preferably a good one. Right now EPCOT's a theme park without the theme.

I agree with this. The original vision of FutureWorld was by definition unsustainable. The park has always had two separate themes, adding to the disjointed nature of it. They should have taken a fresh look at the entire park a long time ago.

 

[flynnibus]

No, it's dogmatic purism, Martin. You and your ilk seem to believe Epcot has to adhere to its original form and refuse to accept or even consider change.

Change to WHAT though.. that's the crux

Ok, you don't like what the old Epcot formula was or don't think it should continue. Ok, then pick a new path and build the most amazing version of that. But the key is to actually build something that works and has identity and purpose people are drawn to.

Don't build mash-up-cot and and say "oh you just don't like change"

 

[Goofyernmost]

It really isn't.

The issue people take isn't that EPCOT is changing. The issue is that so, so many of the changes in the last 25 years are just worse than what they replaced, and only very rarely have any come along that are genuinely better than what was there before. That's an issue at any park, and it's happened at basically every Disney Park at one point or another, but none so chronically as EPCOT.

It has compounded to the point where the park is a confusing array of disconnected elements lumped in one gate with hardly any perceptible binding logic. Personally, I could absolutely get behind a fresh new take on EPCOT that washes its hands of the parks original intentions . . . on the condition that the new park actually be good. Instead we keep getting get weird hackjob mishmashes that intersperse original 1982 constructions with contemporary properties without any real connective tissue between the two. This despite a Billion dollars being poured into the park.

People don't really expect them to follow the same idea that guided them in 1982 - they've proved long ago that isn't happening. But should have some idea to follow. And preferably a good one. Right now EPCOT's a theme park without the theme.

Although I don't necessarily disagree with you, I have to ask this question. Do you really think that anyone besides ourselves gives a tinkers damn about theme or are confused? Let's get real all this discussion about IP's and themes are lost on the average guests. Those of us that have practically made it a lifestyle to worry about that crap have a serious problem with accepting reality and trying to move on. All the average guest wants to do is experience a fun park with interesting things to see and not feel like there will be a pop quiz before they leave. If the general public wants Epcot to be another MK, then we won't be able to stop the from happening. All we can do is go to the other three plus parks and ignore the place. I'll guarantee you that there aren't enough of us to matter. Whatever Epcot ends up being, it is just my hope that whatever they do to it is attractive, entertaining and not requiring gallons of alcohol to get through like it has been in recent years.

 

[Jrb1979]

Although I don't necessarily disagree with you, I have to ask this question. Do you really think that anyone besides ourselves gives a tinkers damn about theme or are confused? Let's get real all this discussion about IP's and themes are lost on the average guests. Those of us that have practically made it a lifestyle to worry about that crap have a serious problem with accepting reality and trying to move on. All the average guest wants to do is experience a fun park with interesting things to see and not feel like there will be a pop quiz before they leave. If the general public wants Epcot to be another MK, then we won't be able to stop the from happening. All we can do is go to the other three plus parks and ignore the place. I'll guarantee you that there aren't enough of us to matter. Whatever Epcot ends up being, it is just my hope that whatever they do to it is attractive, entertaining and not requiring gallons of alcohol to get through like it has been in recent years.

While it's unfortunate, I will opt for Universal if that ends up being the case. If I'm going to a theme park I want the theme to be through out the park. At least Universal does its best to do that.

 

[dovetail65]

No, Epcot is a truly bad park in its current form, propped up financially by food festivals. If it weren't for the reservation system, I think that Disney may actually have an issue with populating the park.

EPCOT Center's first decade of attractions were some of the best ever created. I don't think I've ever seen rides so unique or interesting since. That's not to say that Disney should tear the park down and rebuild those attractions, but it needs to progress in a way that continues that Disney tradition of excellence and attention to detail. Epcot as a park no longer has a theme, other than becoming a generic kitchen sink of poorly implemented IP. Remy is mediocre, Frozen is poor and Cosmic Rewind is a nice Space Mountain that makes no sense for Epcot and could exist entirely independent of the Guardians of the Galaxy slapped onto it. The rest of the park is just dated project Gemini additions that haven't been maintained or have aged poorly. Why does this park need some Moana walk-through water attraction? Disney can't even tell us what it is.

Epcot is just a dead empty shell, filled with superficial additions by management that doesn't know how to address the issues the park faces. It's clear that there is no creativity left in the Disney company any longer if they can't think of interesting and compelling attractions for a place like Epcot. There are so many interesting options out there, yet the best they can do is slap some characters onto some half-baked rides.

And that is one persons opinion, good on you.

We have fun at all the parks and my memories of the older attractions at EPCOT are fond memories, so glad my kids got to see Ellen. For us EPCOT is still fun, so sorry it's not for you.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

And that is one persons opinion, good on you.

We have fun at all the parks

It’s more than one person’s opinion - Epcot is a true mess in many peoples opinions.

Noticing flaws doesn’t equal not having fun at parks.

I don’t think the spider man ride belongs in a Disney park and I think universals is better. I also enjoy it and will re-ride it cause it is a fun ride.

 

[LeighM]

Busch Gardens has always been a coaster heavy park. I know it's not everyone's thing but at least they try to make new coasters fit the theming of the area. Most regional parks don't do a lot of family rides.

As far as Epcot goes, Remy fits as the IP is based in France. As much as I dislike IP in Epcot at least Remy fits the area its in. That's my issue with almost everything they do now. They don't seem to have a plan for IP, they plop where they can.

I have to disagree. Busch Gardens Williamsburg 30+ years ago was not a coaster heavy park. There was the classic Loch Ness, the much missed Big Bad Wolf, and the short lived Drachen Fire, which was added later. It was more about the prettiness of the park, European themed immersion and theater shows with a few coasters thrown in sprinkled with carnival type rides. Then some time ago, they added the original 3D ride Questor, which was the best show that was in that place. The one that replaced it was okay but more jerky and rough for the older crowd, and the Soarin wannabe attraction was just total crap! DarKastle was a great family friendly addition but then they removed it for yet another roller coaster, which looks to copy Hagrids/Tron. I do have to give them props for adding in the behind the scenes tours for the animals, etc. and the child friendly areas, however, its not as multigenerational or ADA friendly as WDW. But BGW now feels like it's trying to keep up with Six Flags. But that's not how they started.

 

[Jrb1979]

I have to disagree. Busch Gardens Williamsburg 30+ years ago was not a coaster heavy park. There was the classic Loch Ness, the much missed Big Bad Wolf, and the short lived Drachen Fire, which was added later. It was more about the prettiness of the park, European themed immersion and theater shows with a few coasters thrown in sprinkled with carnival type rides. Then some time ago, they added the original 3D ride Questor, which was the best show that was in that place. The one that replaced it was okay but more jerky and rough for the older crowd, and the Soarin wannabe attraction was just total crap! DarKastle was a great family friendly addition but then they removed it for yet another roller coaster, which looks to copy Hagrids/Tron. I do have to give them props for adding in the behind the scenes tours for the animals, etc. and the child friendly areas, however, its not as multigenerational or ADA friendly as WDW. But BGW now feels like it's trying to keep up with Six Flags. But that's not how they started.

I do agree with what is you are saying. All regional parks are like that. A lot of that has to do with the competition they face. It's either keep up in coaster wars or fall way behind. It' sucks for the ADA/multigenerational family. It's not just Six Flags they are going up against but also Cedar Fair and Hershey.

 

[LeighM]

I do agree with what is you are saying. All regional parks are like that. A lot of that has to do with the competition they face. It's either keep up in coaster wars or fall way behind. It' sucks for the ADA/multigenerational family. It's not just Six Flags they are going up against but also Cedar Fair and Hershey.

The other local park, Kings Dominion, which was tied to Paramount used to be the park that was thrill ride heavy. But I haven't been to that park in years because it was too much concrete and not enough shade LOL. I was never a huge fan of KD, not since they ended the connection with Hanna Barbera (which totally doesn't age me at all ). But back what I was going to say - I feel like that's the change that Disney is facing with Epcot because they have to balance being more inclusive with thrill ride focus and the best way to do that is with IPs that loosely fit into whatever area they're building. So they added Remy (family friendly/ADA) then Guardians. My complaint about GotG at Epcot isn't that it's in Epcot but that the building is so frickin huge and not even painting it blue can hide it when looking from World Showcase lol. I wish they could add a Marvel land at HS for that kind of attraction bc it feels like a better fit. Younger generations are always looking for the next big thing and get bored with watching the same stage show multiple times. So I feel like how they built Guardians can be more easily changed 10-20 years from now - keep the same ride vehicle/track but just update the movie. That works better than turning Maelstrom into Frozen.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Nemo, Frozen, Remy, and Guardians - NONE of them fit with Epcot, and it kind of surprises me how many Epcot purists and general WDW purists are willing to handwave them.

Nemo - The aquarium and Turtle Talk with Crush DO fit. Turtle Talk with Crush is an example of using an IP well - it invites you into the world of the IP but in a new way you haven't seen before, and it fits into the core mission statement of the park. However, the main ride, does not fit at all, to the extent that it's jarring to ride something that is just a Fantasyland-style retelling of the film only to be dumped into something educational. They could have made it work by using the IP to tell you more about the oceans/coral reefs/whatever, but they didn't. They did the easiest thing.

Frozen - it takes place in a land inspired by Nordic culture. Great. Too bad the ride says or shows absolutely none of this and its only goal is to ensure you hear the songs you want to hear.

Remy - It takes in Paris. It doesn't talk about France, Paris, French culture, French cuisine. Nothing. You just run around escaping the bad guy.

Guardians - the queue and first pre-show are literally a parody of an Epcot pavilion. And even that might be okay if the ride itself followed through on that theme, but it doesn't - once you're in the second pre-show, it's "we've gotta stop the bad guy!". Any pretense of fitting with Epcot even as a parody is immediately out the window and not called back on.

A Disney Enthusiast is liking Disney and what they have done. The experiences, the entertainment and history.

A Disney Adult, in a negative sense, is a lifestyle, and displaying Disney referencing Disney, what the parks have certainly turned into. Disney used to be themed to experiences and connected to them. Now Disney is themed to "Disney."

For the first on-topic post in a while - excellent points! Most of us here would probably fall under "Disney Enthusiast" if you're very enthusiastic about Disney beyond its' theme parks.

"Disney Adult" is very much a negative term, though plenty of people label themselves as such proudly. They like and rep Disney for the sake of Disney. They see the parks as an extension of the brand, not a unique entertainment form that can stand on its own, even though it has a vast history of proving that it can and does. This very much parallels the current company leadership's attitude toward the parks. I do think there is a bit of "feeding off of each other" going on as well. The rise in the company pushing its brand as a lifestyle has led to more people adopting that attitude and going to Disney and demanding more of that, and the company gives in, and it keeps snowballing.

 

[LittleBuford]

Remy has too many screens and not impressive at all. Yet people love it cause of the IP.

You’re assuming an awful lot here. I love it because I think it’s great fun. The IP has very little to do with it for me, since Ratatouille isn’t a film I’m especially passionate about. The ride succeeds on its own merits, at least in my view.

 

[Jrb1979]

You’re assuming an awful lot here. I love it because I think it’s great fun. The IP has very little to do with it for me, since Ratatouille isn’t a film I’m especially passionate about. The ride succeeds on its own merits, at least in my view.

I think part of why I am not impressed with it is that I find trackless rides very meh. A lot of that has to do with them not being immersive enough. IMO it loses the immersiveness when you see the other vehicles on the ride with you.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

Weird thing is..I don't recall this evolution of the "Disney Adult" from 12-15 years ago...Now everything is off the wall and friggin obsessive of Goofy Movie this and Powerline that..Yeah, it's an OK movie...Don't have to retheme it to RnRC of the 2 songs of the film...

 

[Tom Morrow]

I think part of why I am not impressed with it is that I find trackless rides very meh. A lot of that has to do with them not being immersive enough. IMO it loses the immersiveness when you see the other vehicles on the ride with you.

Plus, they try to wow us by shuffling the vehicles around the floor, which requires a big flat floor space and makes the scenes feel big and empty rather than intimate and immersive.

 

[UNCgolf]

Plus, they try to wow us by shuffling the vehicles around the floor, which requires a big flat floor space and makes the scenes feel big and empty rather than intimate and immersive.

This is my biggest issue with trackless. They all have at least one major scene that looks/feels a giant warehouse with a ton of empty floor space -- Rise is probably the best at avoiding this, but that's mainly because giant open rooms fit the IP setting.