Disney's Live Action The Little Mermaid

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
No-one is claiming that. Times and standards change. Have you never watched something from the ’80s or ’90s and thought, “Wow, we wouldn’t say or do that today”?
I went back to listen to the song just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. And I'm at a loss. Times and standards do infact change. So what in that song is now out of standards that would warrant changing it? I just can't think of any way that the times and standards have changed that would make any part of that song problematic or needing any adjustments.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Its a far cry from the complete story presented in Hans Christian Anderson's "Eventyr, fortalte for Børn. Første Samling". The tangible goal centers around getting legs and feet to be able to dance as well as an eternal soul and the consequence would be pain and continuing pain as she used the new legs and feet. The part thats missing in Disney's adaptation of the tail is the "cure" for the new existence which would have involved killing the prince for his blood to change her back to a mermaid. Of course, there's a happy ending, but not the materialistic one Disney chose to insert. Again I'll trot out the specter that fables are teaching inventions to convey societal values.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I went back to listen to the song just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. And I'm at a loss. Times and standards do infact change. So what in that song is now out of standards that would warrant changing it? I just can't think of any way that the times and standards have changed that would make any part of that song problematic or needing any adjustments.
I can’t provide a better explanation than Menken himself has already provided.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I can't imagine that he wouldn't be angry that someone would assume that his work would cause offence to anyone. I don't see how anyone could support such an idea. Despicable.
I imagine Menken—his close friend and collaborator—and his estate are much better acquainted than any of us are with how Mr. Ashman may or may not have felt about such changes, and they seem fine with the idea that certain tweaks are appropriate (just as they were back in 1993 when the same thing happened with Aladdin).
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
Its a far cry from the complete story presented in Hans Christian Anderson's "Eventyr, fortalte for Børn. Første Samling". The tangible goal centers around getting legs and feet to be able to dance as well as an eternal soul and the consequence would be pain and continuing pain as she used the new legs and feet. The part thats missing in Disney's adaptation of the tail is the "cure" for the new existence which would have involved killing the prince for his blood to change her back to a mermaid. Of course, there's a happy ending, but not the materialistic one Disney chose to insert. Again I'll trot out the specter that fables are teaching inventions to convey societal values.
I like the idea of the book ending where she turns to sea breeze to provide a useful service for 300 years. They can create their own everlasting soul if they can find a good child who is a credit to their parents a year is taking off her sentence. A bad child will add a year. So be good children and help Ariel gain a soul.

That kind of ending wouldn't work in a Disney movie.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
No but I certainly see it in your many bigoted posts.
Oh, so you're projecting.

projecting.png
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I can’t provide a better explanation than Menken himself has already provided.
I know what he said

"There are some lyric changes in 'Kiss the Girl' because people have gotten very sensitive about the idea that [Prince Eric] would, in any way, force himself on [Ariel]."​

You said times and standards change. So I'm asking you, since you are defending the change, and that's fine, it's your opinion. What in the song warrants the change? I don't see it. And I've never known, heard or read until now, any "people who are sensitive" about Eric forcing himself on her.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I know what he said

You said times and standards change. So I'm asking you, since you are defending the change, and that's fine, it's your opinion. What in the song warrants the change? I don't see it. And I've never known, heard or read until now, any "people who are sensitive" about Eric forcing himself on her.
My answer would simply repeat Menken’s; that’s what I meant, and why I see no point in restating what he himself has already articulated.

I will add, however, that the concerns he notes are not brand new. If I recall correctly, a university glee club stopped singing “Kiss the Girl” a few years ago because of the issue of consent.

To be clear, I personally do not find the lyrics problematic. But others—particularly those younger than I—feel differently, and who am I to tell them they’re wrong? Nothing is lost—the old versions are still there—and the changes are being made with the support and participation of those who knew Ashman best.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Okay I do have to ask this question. In what way, shape, or form did Eric EVER force himself on Ariel? Can someone PLEASE explain that?

He simply leaned in for a kiss to see if she was receptive. She was so, they kissed.
Decontextualised, the words can read rather differently:

Yes, you want her,​
Look at her, you know you do,​
Possible she wants you too,​
There is one way to ask her.​
It don't take a word,​
Not a single word,​
Go on and kiss the girl​

Take away the narrative as we know it and you’re left with lyrics that seem to be encouraging someone to kiss a girl without seeking her consent or knowing for certain that she would reciprocate. This would be an uncharitable interpretation that ignores the circumstances of the scene, but I can certainly see why such words may not resonate so innocently among today’s young people.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Okay I do have to ask this question. In what way, shape, or form did Eric EVER force himself on Ariel? Can someone PLEASE explain that?

He simply leaned in for a kiss to see if she was receptive. She was so, they kissed.

This reminds me of the Baby it’s cold outside controversy, you have to really stretch to find anything to be offended by in either of these songs. Sometimes I think people protest too much, similar to how some anti gay people are actually fighting their own gay tendencies, I wonder if this isn’t the same and the people offended by lyrics like these aren’t dealing with deviant feelings they are ashamed of so they fight against anything (real or imagined) that they feel is remotely deviant.

That or it’s as simple as they have people on the payroll who’s sole job is to find offensive things to change, those people have to find something or they lose their job.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
Decontextualised, the words can read rather differently:

Yes, you want her,​
Look at her, you know you do,​
Possible she wants you too,​
There is one way to ask her.​
It don't take a word,​
Not a single word,​
Go on and kiss the girl​

Take away the narrative as we know it and you’re left with lyrics that seem to be encouraging someone to kiss a girl without seeking her consent or knowing for certain that she would reciprocate. This would be an uncharitable interpretation that ignores the circumstances of the scene, but I can certainly see why such words may not resonate so innocently among today’s young people.
But isn't that looking for something that isn't there? You can't take it out of context because that isn't fair and makes little sense. With that sort of mindset, we could shut down just about every piece of entertainment. In contex, the song is because Ariel wants the kiss, It's because of her. They are actively trying to get Eric to kiss her.
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
This reminds me of the Baby it’s cold outside controversy, you have to really stretch to find anything to be offended by in either of these songs. Sometimes I think people protest too much, similar to how some anti gay people are actually fighting their own gay tendencies, I wonder if this isn’t the same and the people offended by lyrics like these aren’t dealing with deviant feelings they are ashamed of so they fight against anything (real or imagined) that they feel is remotely deviant.

That or it’s as simple as they have people on the payroll who’s sole job is to find offensive things to change, those people have to find something or they lose their job.
People look for reasons to be offended hence the resident trolls on this board.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I think people protest too much, similar to how some anti gay people are actually fighting their own gay tendencies, I wonder if this isn’t the same and the people offended by lyrics like these aren’t dealing with deviant feelings they are ashamed of so they fight against anything (real or imagined) that they feel is remotely deviant.
This is a bit of a stretch!

It’s also worth noting that one can acknowledge something as (potentially) problematic without personally finding it offensive.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
But isn't that looking for something that isn't there?
Not necessarily. Take the glee club example I provided above. If the song is sung by or to those who don’t know the scene, the lyrics may not be interpreted as meant.

It’s often said that the people advocating for such changes are looking for things to be offended by, but it works both ways. In this instance, a few select changes to two songs—made with the backing and involvement of one of the original songwriters—are being framed in rather alarmist and exaggerated terms as another battleground in the culture wars.
 

LSLS

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's times changing, nor is it some crazy leftist agenda. I'd bet it's either they think they can sell this as a different song to get people to go back and buy the original along with this one, or the producers think that changing a few random lyrics (maybe under the guise of making it more appropriate) will somehow make people think they did this great, creative retelling of the story without making any substantial changes (yes, I have my bias in this part).
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's times changing, nor is it some crazy leftist agenda. I'd bet it's either they think they can sell this as a different song to get people to go back and buy the original along with this one, or the producers think that changing a few random lyrics (maybe under the guise of making it more appropriate) will somehow make people think they did this great, creative retelling of the story without making any substantial changes (yes, I have my bias in this part).
I very much doubt sales or opinions of the new soundtrack will be substantially affected by a few new lines.
 

LSLS

Well-Known Member
I very much doubt sales or opinions of the new soundtrack will be substantially affected by a few new lines.

Maybe not, but I also doubt anyone has read those lyrics and gone "Wow, those are problematic." I mean, they are in use at WDW right now. Things change and things that were acceptable aren't as much anymore (I can site one of my all time favorite shows in that), but I don't see at all how this is one of those. This revolves around either money or egos in my eyes. Here's another question there's no way I'm going to look up, who owns the rights to the original song?
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Maybe not, but I also doubt anyone has read those lyrics and gone "Wow, those are problematic." I mean, they are in use at WDW right now. Things change and things that were acceptable aren't as much anymore (I can site one of my all time favorite shows in that), but I don't see at all how this is one of those.
This issue is always presented in such dichotomous terms. There are so many shades of grey between "This is problematic! I'm offended" and "There's no issue here. Why are people so sensitive?" No-one is condemning the original lyrics as beyond the pale. Menken's own words on the issue (which those criticising the change here seem totally unwilling to engage with) are temperate and considered.

Here's another question there's no way I'm going to look up, who owns the rights to the original song?
Why do you refuse to look it up if it's something you want to know the answer to?
 
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