DisneylandForward

BuzzedPotatoHead89

Well-Known Member
There are 5 water parks.
Knott's Soak City
Magic Mountain's Hurricane Harbor
Raging Waters
Wild Rivers
Great Wolf Lodge

Four out of five of them are within 20 miles or less of Disneyland.
Go a bit further south and you also have two family-centric Water Parks in the San Diego area (Sesame Place and LEGOLAND).

If anything maybe Disneyland could build a 4th resort hotel with a larger pool complex a la Aulani or Yacht/Beach club to compete with Great Wolf.
 

DLR92

Well-Known Member
If Disney were to buy out the apartment complex that borders the toy story lot South and East. That a nice buffer to have room for back of house facilities and more room for theme park. It be huge hurdle to get into removing those apartment and zoning change of those plot of lands.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
I thought we ended these 3rd gate conversations already when Iger basically squashed that idea back a couple years ago.

The Toy Story Lot if ever developed will like be more Disney hotels and shopping. They already wanted to build a 4th hotel on the west side, so because that area is now slated for potential expansion it only makes sense it goes to Toy Story Lot instead.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I thought we ended these 3rd gate conversations already when Iger basically squashed that idea back a couple years ago.

The Toy Story Lot if ever developed will like be more Disney hotels and shopping. They already wanted to build a 4th hotel on the west side, so because that area is now slated for potential expansion it only makes sense it goes to Toy Story Lot instead.
Iger is also supposed to be gone in less than two years.
 
I find it hard to believe any new CEO would want to develop Toy Story into a 3rd gate at this point. It makes more sense to keep everything together and go down the expansion path on the west side.

But hey maybe they move that $17B from WDW to DLR and go crazy....
It starts to make a lot more sense if Disney purchases the GardenWalk, that paired with an eastern gateway that gets rid of the immigration services tenant and instead orients the garage vertically(so it doesn't block a connection to the garden walk) makes the whole thing seem a lot more sensible. Add in the purchase of a few more motels and replace them with a Disney hotel and a bridge with access points from Harbor Blvd, there's definitely a way to tie it all together.
 

Consumer

Well-Known Member
I find it hard to believe any new CEO would want to develop Toy Story into a 3rd gate at this point. It makes more sense to keep everything together and go down the expansion path on the west side.

But hey maybe they move that $17B from WDW to DLR and go crazy....
It would take a real creative visionary leader for the company to make a third gate at Disneyland, which is something Iger and his kind are not. I do think it can happen, and I do believe there's great potential in it, but like others have said it would rely on Disney purchasing Garden Walk and rerouting the Monorail.

I've shared this before (perhaps even in this thread), but the plans for the Disneyland Resort back in the 90's lay out how it would work fairly well.
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It would take a real creative visionary leader for the company to make a third gate at Disneyland, which is something Iger and his kind are not.
Yeah... it's especially odd that Disney has passed on purchase opportunities for a lot of the land around the Toy Story lot. Hyatt House, Homewood Suites and Hampton Inn all went up in the last 15 years. Red Lion sold for $21m in 2021. All together like 15 acres and collectively sold for the same price Disney paid for the Carousel Inn and will certainly be more than double the price in the future given improvements.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
It starts to make a lot more sense if Disney purchases the GardenWalk, that paired with an eastern gateway that gets rid of the immigration services tenant and instead orients the garage vertically(so it doesn't block a connection to the garden walk) makes the whole thing seem a lot more sensible. Add in the purchase of a few more motels and replace them with a Disney hotel and a bridge with access points from Harbor Blvd, there's definitely a way to tie it all together.
You’re making the assumption that all those parties want to sell to Disney. Most of the Harbor businesses have a pact to never sell to Disney. So not sure how that would work.

But like I said maybe they go crazy and Disney starts throwing around that $17B earmarked for WDW and use it in Anaheim instead.
 
You’re making the assumption that all those parties want to sell to Disney. Most of the Harbor businesses have a pact to never sell to Disney. So not sure how that would work.

But like I said maybe they go crazy and Disney starts throwing around that $17B earmarked for WDW and use it in Anaheim instead.
Most of the Harbor Business owners around the carousel are nearly dead, it's a Fujishige. Badalian, the owner of the Tropicana and Camelot is 96. The Scalzo family that owns the Park Vue only has two daughters left in their 80's, the family will want to split assets. Lastly the only possible holdout in that area O'Connell who owns the Park Place best western is also the owner of the new JW Marriott. If Disney acquired the GardenWalk they could easily play hardball by jeopardizing his most valuable investment if he refuses to sell.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Most of the Harbor Business owners around the carousel are nearly dead, it's a Fujishige. Badalian, the owner of the Tropicana and Camelot is 96. The Scalzo family that owns the Park Vue only has two daughters left in their 80's, the family will want to split assets. Lastly the only possible holdout in that area O'Connell who owns the Park Place best western is also the owner of the new JW Marriott. If Disney acquired the GardenWalk they could easily play hardball by jeopardizing his most valuable investment if he refuses to sell.

I just don’t see it happening. But I’m sure over the next several years/decades we’ll see.
 

Elijah Abrams

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Most of the Harbor Business owners around the carousel are nearly dead, it's a Fujishige. Badalian, the owner of the Tropicana and Camelot is 96. The Scalzo family that owns the Park Vue only has two daughters left in their 80's, the family will want to split assets. Lastly the only possible holdout in that area O'Connell who owns the Park Place best western is also the owner of the new JW Marriott. If Disney acquired the GardenWalk they could easily play hardball by jeopardizing his most valuable investment if he refuses to sell.
Wow. I never knew that about the Tropicana, Camelot, and Park Vue.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
It starts to make a lot more sense if Disney purchases the GardenWalk

GardenWalk was a bad investment in 2001, in 2009, and would be still so today. Those outdoor malls are a dime a dozen now in southern california and there are plans to build even more (OC Vibe) right down the street. Had Disney bought it before, they would have been saddled with running a failing mall, negotiating the hotel development agreements, and paying off debt before doing what... spending more money to flatten the whole thing for some other use? I don't think it was every going to work out financially to buy that land.


Yeah... it's especially odd that Disney has passed on purchase opportunities for a lot of the land around the Toy Story lot.

It's not as valuable to them. Not now at least, I don't think.

They're not going to build a third park in Anaheim. With DisneylandForward they have already made their intentions clear: they want something new. A Downtown Disney with rides and entertainment. Something that can be a mixed-use development that they can grow into gradually, rather than committing billions of dollars for a theme park that will just need to be fixed as soon as it is built.

I highly suspect that their first play here will be slowing adding attractions attached to the current Downtown Disney area that are pay-per-ride fee based to test the waters. If it goes well, they will expand into the Downtown Disney East (Toy Story Lot) with more shops/dining/hotel/rides all mixed on one property. That plan doesn't require huge chunks of land be available at the onset, so they can acquire expansion space if and when they need it.
 
GardenWalk was a bad investment in 2001, in 2009, and would be still so today. Those outdoor malls are a dime a dozen now in southern california and there are plans to build even more (OC Vibe) right down the street. Had Disney bought it before, they would have been saddled with running a failing mall, negotiating the hotel development agreements, and paying off debt before doing what...
Short term thinking, and probably how Iger and Co think. Those malls may be a dime a dozen, however this particular mall sits on the only piece of land that would allow contiguous development between the properties Disney currently owns. It allows Disney to build hotels along the stretch between DL & DCA and the third park(or Iger's version of ESPN Zone or Disney Quest) and control the guest experience between. It's only a 10 minute walk between properties, if Disney can route guests through more Disney owned property that's a big deal aesthetically and financially.

Disney bought 75 acres of land back in 1998 for over $100 million and has been content to use it as a parking lot, $80 million is a rounding error in terms of what Disney spends, they're currently sitting on $12 billion in cash(at current inflation that diminishes in purchasing power by over $700 million annually).
They're not going to build a third park in Anaheim. With DisneylandForward they have already made their intentions clear: they want something new.
I'm not convinced they do know what they want. I'm fairly certain DisneylandForward is just a ploy to get Anaheim to change zoning and allow them to build the Eastern Gateway, "Look we're gonna develop these parking lots and that means we need a replacement."
 

Nirya

Well-Known Member
It's not as valuable to them. Not now at least, I don't think.

They're not going to build a third park in Anaheim. With DisneylandForward they have already made their intentions clear: they want something new. A Downtown Disney with rides and entertainment. Something that can be a mixed-use development that they can grow into gradually, rather than committing billions of dollars for a theme park that will just need to be fixed as soon as it is built.

I highly suspect that their first play here will be slowing adding attractions attached to the current Downtown Disney area that are pay-per-ride fee based to test the waters. If it goes well, they will expand into the Downtown Disney East (Toy Story Lot) with more shops/dining/hotel/rides all mixed on one property. That plan doesn't require huge chunks of land be available at the onset, so they can acquire expansion space if and when they need it.
The Toy Story lot may work better for Disney as a bargaining chip with the city ("we promise we're going to develop this land if you hand us this tax break!") but I'm not sure how you look at how they've approached Downtown Disney and say they have much investment in it anymore. They've continuously tried to cut it down with new hotels on the west side, and DisneyForward showed an even smaller DTD because they have seemingly decided that trying to maintain an outdoor shopping district inside of their security bubble is a fools errand.

The potential of buying GardenWalk was never really about managing the property but about owning a continuous piece of land between the main resort property and TSL. There's a lot of logistical things Disney would have to solve for a third park, but this would solve one of them.
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
Short term thinking, and probably how Iger and Co think. Those malls may be a dime a dozen, however this particular mall sits on the only piece of land that would allow contiguous development between the properties Disney currently owns. It allows Disney to build hotels along the stretch between DL & DCA and the third park(or Iger's version of ESPN Zone or Disney Quest) and control the guest experience between. It's only a 10 minute walk between properties, if Disney can route guests through more Disney owned property that's a big deal aesthetically and financially.

Disney bought 75 acres of land back in 1998 for over $100 million and has been content to use it as a parking lot, $80 million is a rounding error in terms of what Disney spends, they're currently sitting on $12 billion in cash(at current inflation that diminishes in purchasing power by over $700 million annually).

I'm not convinced they do know what they want. I'm fairly certain DisneylandForward is just a ploy to get Anaheim to change zoning and allow them to build the Eastern Gateway, "Look we're gonna develop these parking lots and that means we need a replacement."

Disney had a chance on the Gardenwalk when it was sold for 73 million after no one bid in an auction back in 2012 then resold for 80 million in 2018. They really don't want that piece of property.
 

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