DisneylandForward

[MistaDee]

Nor did I.



This was not meant to be condescending. It's actually a better place for this type of discussion of the pure what ifs hypotheticals.

I wanted to converse about the Coco ride in actuality.

Agreed - hearing from Yensid on the possibility of a CoCo boat ride is genuinely exciting, exactly the kind of thing DCA needs without the questionable IP fit (Avatar) or uninspiring ride technology (Avengers) of the other big rides expected over the next few years.

 

[MistaDee]

I understand that completely. But do you know that the TSL has always had some basic approvals for a 3rd gate under the DRSP? Which is why everyone has been insistent over the years that that is what Disney should do with it. So they didn't need zoning changes for that to be done. The zone changes now actually allows them to build mixed use, ie hotels and retail on TLS, something they weren't allowed to do before. Hmm, why do you think Disney would want that zoning change.....

And so the real issue becomes that when Disney does build something other than a 3rd gate it becomes fairly final and some just can't accept that.




If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why would we call it a zebra? If Disney has said multiple times through public statements as well as proposals, EIRs, etc, they've put forth that they have no plans for a 3rd gate; then why would anyone believe they would just go ahead and build a 3rd gate just because they now have carte blanche to do so with new zoning (which they didn't need in this case anyways)? But yes as said before it is possible they could still build a 3rd gate at the direction of some future CEO, it just seems pretty slim on it happening.

My understanding was the original plan only covered 25 acres of the site:

I may be wrong on that

 

[PiratesMansion]

So first I'm claiming my statements as 100% fact and now it's my tone is making those statements? It looks like this might be a case where you may be doing a little too much reading between the lines. Nowhere did I tell anyone to keep their opinion to themselves, only that they should not express their opinions as 100% facts...

Once again, with the coaching about the 100% correct way to interpret your posts, convinced that any error must be with the post reader and could not possibly lie with the post writer.

But speaking of tone, please don't @ me with "my child" it's condescending and rude

Fine, I own it. That was not nice. Now, please own your tone in turn.

This is specifically what I referred to as gatekeeping:

We have an imagineering sub forum here on the board if that interests everyone. That would be a great place to take these sort of discussions about unlimited possibilities. This is not the right place.

Again presumes that you are the only one operating in good faith. Neglects the fact that even if he did try to gatekeep (he didn't), you tried to gatekeep right back, much more blatantly.

Again, there seems to be some confusion as to what hill I'm on and who's dying. I'm not claiming they're going to build a 3rd gate just pointing out that it's a possibility.

And that's the thing, no one is actually disagreeing with you, just stating that it's unlikely for some time due to variables you seem eager to dismiss. But you got so focused on clapping back at people that you didn't even notice that most people's views aren't that different from your own.

Thanks for sharing your opinions on humility and foolishness tho

So what I said was condescending and rude, and this isn't? I'm just saying.

You don't have to agree with me, and I'm sure you don't. But if I'm not the only person saying so, perhaps there's some truth to it.

 

[Disney Irish]

My understanding was the original plan only covered 25 acres of the site:

View attachment 788343

I may be wrong on that

Hence why I said some basic approvals, the rest was covered under the ARSP I believe. And again it didn't cover mixed use, it does now. Also under the original plan Gene Autry was to continue right through the middle of the TSL, something that always prevent the full future use of TSL. And it now doesn't, allowing them to fully plan out a future use of TSL.

 

[Disney Irish]

Well D23 is looking to potentially be exciting this year.....

 

[mickEblu]

Agreed - hearing from Yensid on the possibility of a CoCo boat ride is genuinely exciting, exactly the kind of thing DCA needs without the questionable IP fit (Avatar) or uninspiring ride technology (Avengers) of the other big rides expected over the next few years.

It is exciting but I have to wonder. Is it ever possible to match or exceed the expectations for people like us who are on this site everyday hearing every rumor, seeing every construction photo, continuously postulating (and for some even watching the ride through prior to riding) for years? Especially when these people are spoiled with Disneyland and all of its classic attractions?

 

[Disney Irish]

It is exciting but I have to wonder. Is it ever possible to match or exceed the expectations for people like us who are on this site everyday hearing every rumor, seeing every construction photo, continuously postulating (and for some even watching the ride through prior to riding) for years? Especially when these people are spoiled with Disneyland and all of its classic attractions?

I agree, and I say this even while being part of it, I think this is the biggest issue with the fandom. I've said it before that we in the fandom are spoiled by how much information there is out there now. In the old days you'd get some concept art, maybe some TV special (think the HM with the Osmond's special), but very little in the way of rumors or other tidbits of information before a new attraction would be announced and then opened. You just went and experienced it cold without any real preconceived expectation of it.

I think we really do a disservice to ourselves and set ourselves up for disappointment because of all that we've built up in our minds. I put it akin to a book fandom that goes and sees the latest movie adaptation. They built up the visuals of the story in their mind that the movie can never fully live up to it.

Its why I never really base my enjoyment of something based on what is said here. I remove the expectation from the equation and just accept whatever comes, whether I discussed something at great length or not. Its why I can like something that others have written off as "lesser" or "bad", because in the end I don't have that same expectation as others do.

 

[mickEblu]

I agree, and I say this even while being part of it, I think this is the biggest issue with the fandom. I've said it before that we in the fandom are spoiled by how much information there is out there now. In the old days you'd get some concept art, maybe some TV special (think the HM with the Osmond's special), but very little in the way of rumors or other tidbits of information before a new attraction would be announced and then opened. You just went and experienced it cold without any real preconceived expectation of it.

I think we really do a disservice to ourselves and set ourselves up for disappointment because of all that we've built up in our minds. I put it akin to a book fandom that goes and sees the latest movie adaptation. They built up the visuals of the story in their mind that the movie can never fully live up to it.

Its why I never really base my enjoyment of something based on what is said here. I remove the expectation from the equation and just accept whatever comes, whether I discussed something at great length or not. Its why I can like something that others have written off as "lesser" or "bad", because in the end I don't have that same expectation as others do.

It’s also part of the reason I’ve been championing a coaster so hard. It’s much harder for a thrill ride to be disappointing or not match expectations.

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

It’s also part of the reason I’ve been championing a coaster so hard. It’s much harder for a thrill ride to be disappointing or not match expectations.

For a long time, there was talk of Coco replacing the Gran Fiesta Tour at Mexico in Epcot...maybe they're dusting off those plans?

 

[mickEblu]

For a long time, there was talk of Coco replacing the Gran Fiesta Tour at Mexico in Epcot...maybe they're dusting off those plans?

I think rumor at the time was DCA was also going to get it. But yeah its been Blue Sky for a while.

 

[mickEblu]

So after Haunted Mansion, Magnolia Park, TBA and Critter Country open i think they are finally done tinkering with the park for the most part excluding Tomorrowland and maybe the Motorboat Cruise area. By tinkering I mean reconfiguring walkways, shaving down curbs, shrinking planters, retheming attractions, replacing real grass with astroturf, breaking my heart etc.

 

[Disney Irish]

So after Haunted Mansion, Magnolia Park, TBA and Critter Country open i think they are finally done tinkering with the park for the most part excluding Tomorrowland and maybe the Motorboat Cruise area. By tinkering I mean reconfiguring walkways, shaving down curbs, shrinking planters, retheming attractions, replacing real grass with astroturf, breaking my heart etc.

I assume you mean Disneyland proper, and if so, I would put the qualifier "for awhile" on there. I'm sure there are proposals for every land to be "tinkered" with in the future. Sorry but just being realistic here.

 

[mickEblu]

I assume you mean Disneyland proper, and if so, I would put the qualifier "for awhile" on there. I'm sure there are proposals for every land to be "tinkered" with in the future. Sorry but just being realistic here.

Haha yes I considered full proofing my statement with “a while.”

 

[Nirya]

I'm still of the opinion that a future third gate, if it ever happens, actually takes place on the "expansion pads" that Disney is proposing for DL and DCA. I'm more willing to believe the Toy Story Lot is where they completely rebuild the Disneyland Hotel, with the new third gate having a hotel built into it similar to the Grand Californian. It would give you similar size to DCA as far as acreage while also allowing them to share backstage space, whereas the TSL would require its own specific backstage space due to being unconnected to the other parks.

But I also think that is decades away if anything. As I repeatedly said, DisneylandForward was simply a marketing pitch to get the approval for a Western Gateway through, which coincidentally gives them the room to put an Avatar expansion pad in DCA.

 

[TheRealSkull]

I'm still of the opinion that a future third gate, if it ever happens, actually takes place on the "expansion pads" that Disney is proposing for DL and DCA. I'm more willing to believe the Toy Story Lot is where they completely rebuild the Disneyland Hotel, with the new third gate having a hotel built into it similar to the Grand Californian. It would give you similar size to DCA as far as acreage while also allowing them to share backstage space, whereas the TSL would require its own specific backstage space due to being unconnected to the other parks.

But I also think that is decades away if anything. As I repeatedly said, DisneylandForward was simply a marketing pitch to get the approval for a Western Gateway through, which coincidentally gives them the room to put an Avatar expansion pad in DCA.

Maybe give this video a try! It might answer some of our questions pertaining to this topic:

 

[Advisable Joseph]

From DRAFT FIRST AMENDED AND RESTATED DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT NO. 96-01 (1st Amended) by and between THE CITY OF ANAHEIM and WALT DISNEY PARKS AND RESORTS U.S., INC. (PDF) edited down a bit:

Disney is obligated to spend a certain amount to develop “Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements”

Spoiler: Development minimums

1.45 “Initial Development Investment Threshold” means One Billion Nine Hundred Million Hundred U. S. Dollars ($1,900,000,000).

1.35 “Excess Development Investment Threshold” means Two Billion Five Hundred
Million U.S. Dollars ($2,500,000,000)

3.1.2 Initial Development Commitment for New Theme Park and Hotel Improvements. Disney agrees to proceed with and pursue to Completion (as defined in Section
1.19) by the Initial Development Commitment Completion Date, Qualified Theme Park and/or Commitment Lodging Improvements the Costs of which shall total no less than the Initial Development Investment Threshold. The Parties further agree that Disney shall pay the City Five Million U.S. Investment Dollars ($5,000,000) no later than six (6) months after the Initial Development Commitment Completion Date if Disney has not by that time Completed (subject to verification pursuant to Section 3.1.2.2) Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements the Costs of which equal or exceed the Excess Investment Threshold.

1.66 “Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements” means capital improvement projects constructed or installed by Disney or an Affiliate of Disney from time to time on or in conjunction with development of any of the Disney Properties in accordance with the Applicable Rules which result in (1) new Theme Park uses designed and intended to yield a net increase in capacity at The Disneyland Resort® or the Anaheim Convention Center and/or (2) a net increase in the number of Hotel Rooms in The Anaheim Resort (which may include Disney Vacation Club project units for which a fully-executed TOT In-Lieu Agreement pursuant to Section 3.1.5 of this Agreement is executed before the project is Completed as defined in Section 1.19). Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements shall not include capital improvement projects authorized by Disney which (1) have been finalized or are under construction as [Insert Date],
2024, or (2) are listed in Exhibit E hereto, or (3) are Maintenance Capital projects as defined in Section 1.20A, or (4) are projects the purpose of which is to replace the theming and/or intellectual property associated with a particular Theme Park use or attraction; or (5) are projects involving the demolition and replacement of a particular Theme Park attraction with another Theme Park attraction in the same attraction footprint. . Notwithstanding the foregoing and for the avoidance of doubt, Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements may include (x) subsequent capital improvement projects that modify capital improvements whose initial construction or installation was excluded in the previous sentence, such as a subsequent expansion or modification of an existing Theme Park use or land or a subsequent expansion or modification of a Hotel that currently exists or is listed on Exhibit E, and (y) capital improvement projects commenced at risk by Disney including pursuant to Section 6.29 below during the pendency of any Litigation or effort described in Section 6.30 below, so long in each case as those subsequent capital improvement projects meet the requirements of the first sentence of this Section 1.67 and are not Maintenance Capital projects.

So the investment is for capacity expansion, not maintenance or rethemes.

Spoiler: Maintenance Capital

1.51 “Maintenance Capital” means amounts spent to maintain capital assets in order to maintain or preserve their longevity, productive capacity, performance and/or economic value.
Examples include in-kind replacement of equipment, components, or other elements (e.g., HVAC units, ride track), painting or other resurfacing, and conversion of capital assets or elements thereof to achieve optimal performance and/or to comply with laws.

Spoiler: Current Projects

EXHIBIT E
List of Current Projects
• Mickey & Minnie’s Runaway Railway: a trackless dark ride located in Mickey’s Toontown that features an original story themed to the cartoon world of Mickey Mouse
• Mickey’s Toontown refurbishment: an extensive reimagining of several attractions including Goofy's House, Donald's Boat, and several other areas in a family-friendly themed land
• The Villas at Disneyland Hotel: a Disney Vacation Club resort in a brand new fourth tower at Disneyland Hotel
• Pixar Place Hotel refurbishment: a transformation and reimagining of the lobby, guestrooms, exterior, and other spaces at Pixar Place Hotel (formerly Paradise Pier Hotel)
• Tiana’s Bayou Adventure: an extensive retheming of a log flume thrill ride (formerly Splash Mountain) into a “Princess and the Frog” inspired attraction located in Critter Country
• Avengers Campus E-ticket attraction: an E-ticket attraction located in Avengers Campus and inspired by Marvel’s “Avengers”
• Disneyland Resort Maintenance Capital projects: Various maintenance capital projects meeting the description set forth in Section [_____]of this Agreement, the Costs of which are by definition excluded from Costs of Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements and thus
do not apply toward meeting Disney’s development commitment under Section 3.1.2.
This List of Current Projects shall remain unchanged notwithstanding any delay in the Effective Date due to an Enforced Delay, but in no event shall this sentence be interpreted as allowing any Cost of Maintenance Capital, whenever incurred, to become a Cost of Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements.

Spoiler: More legalese about the costs of projects

1.21 “Costs of Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements” mean all of the following costs paid by Disney or an Affiliate of Disney with respect to work performed to design, engineer, obtain permits for, construct and install Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements as each such Cost is verified by an Accounting Opinion or Opinions to be obtained by Disney and submitted to the City: (1) all architectural and/or engineering fees and expenses
incurred by Disney or an Affiliate of Disney in preparing plans for any Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements, including the fees and expenses of all design, construction, relocation, and project management consultants; (2) the cost of constructing and installing any
Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements, including, without limitation, the costs of a bid process, testing and inspection costs, and contractor’s fees and general conditions; (3) any construction and/or project management fee of up to a cumulative total not to exceed ten percent
(10%) of the costs described in clause (2) above paid to a third party to oversee and manage construction of the work; (4) the cost of fixtures and equipment installed with respect to a Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements that have an estimated useful life of at least five (5)
years; (5) the direct cost of all technological systems deemed necessary and advisable by Disney to properly equip any Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements for their intended use,
which may include voice and data wiring as well as alarm, security and life safety systems; (6) sales and use taxes and Title 24 fees paid with respect to any Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements; (7) the payment of plan check, permit, and license fees relating to construction of any Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements, which may include the fees paid for water, sewer and other utility connections or other development fees; and (8) all other costs directly expended by Disney or an Affiliate of Disney in connection with the construction of any Qualified
Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements such as the cost of payment, performance, and warranty bonds, insurance costs, and internal labor costs (for the construction period only). As used herein, the term “Costs” shall exclude: (1) any costs including Maintenance Capital incurred with respect to capital improvement projects authorized by Disney which improvements exist or are under construction as of the date of this Agreement, and/or are listed in Exhibit E hereto; (2) any internal administrative or overhead charge of Disney or any Affiliate of Disney, by whatever name called other than those direct administrative or overhead charges of Walt Disney Imagineering, a division of Disney, for work performed with respect to the Qualified Theme Park and/or Lodging Improvements; and (3) Maintenance Capital incurred for Qualified Theme Park

and/or Lodging Improvements after construction of such Qualified Capital Improvement

 

[DisneyAJ]

So the Avengers E-Ticket doesn’t count? Wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t see the light of day for another 10 years then

 

[Advisable Joseph]

So the Avengers E-Ticket doesn’t count? Wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t see the light of day for another 10 years then

It doesn't count because Disney was already working on it.

 

[BrianLo]

It is exciting but I have to wonder. Is it ever possible to match or exceed the expectations for people like us who are on this site everyday hearing every rumor, seeing every construction photo, continuously postulating (and for some even watching the ride through prior to riding) for years? Especially when these people are spoiled with Disneyland and all of its classic attractions?

Rise, Radiator Springs and Pandora exceeded my expectations and I followed them intimately. Which is not to say I cannot be disappointed. A lot of DCA since, Millennium Falcon, the showboating of Galaxies Edge all let me down. Or Diagon Alley and the Hogwarts Express that absolutely exceeded my expectations, but felt quite let down by Gringotts. Which is one of the very few times I went into a ride unspoiled and was kind of surprised I was way, way more negative than the initial online reception seemed to be.

Shanghai Disneyland also had veritable highs and lows.



Though I do wonder if some of this is a personality subtype. I think some people suffer from let-down regularly about their birthdays or Christmas or whatever because they build it up too much in their brain. I was not really that kid, though maybe I let the hype around Gringotts get the better of me?

 

[BrianLo]

So the Avengers E-Ticket doesn’t count? Wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t see the light of day for another 10 years then

Oh interesting, I'm not sure what @Advisable Joseph pulled from, but in the draft agreement that actually do reference the Avengers E-ticket. It's alive!!