DisneylandForward

[Disney Irish]

If anything I’d think a purchase of Garden Walk could be a good thing for the surrounding businesses and Disney just needs to speak to that. Garden Walk is struggling annd Disney purchasing it, adding another hotel to it and turning it into DTD East would bring more people to the area, which would include the surrounding businesses. And with Disney owning that land, it would sit all those businesses on Harbor right in the middle of the “Disney bubble”, instead of excluding them which the were previously worried about with the EGW.

I don't see how the McDonald's on Harbor, or any of the hotels along Harbor, would magically be in the "Disney bubble" as they would still have public access. The "Disney bubble" would close off access to all that so that guests are within the security bubble not walking along Harbor, ie all those businesses would be bypassed.

 

[Disney Irish]

Exactly. They would be doing more business. Not less. Most people that walk up and down Harbor Blvd are staying at the hotels I’d imagine a good percentage will still do that to avoid waiting for the mode of transpo to get down to the Toy Story lot. Walking would probably be more convenient for most of those guests on Harbor anyway unless you are staying right by Toy Story or right by the Eastern Gateway. The rest would be offset by the higher volume of guests in the area because of the third gate.

Go back and look at the complaints of all the Harbor businesses on why they were against the EGW and how all the foot traffic would bypass them, because of the Disney security bubble. And now imagine all that within a larger security bubble around all the Disney properties including a 3rd gate, it would bypass all those businesses.

 

[TP2000]

If sales don’t pick up at the Villas at the Disneyland Hotel, they won’t need a new DVC to sell out there for many, many, many years.

Wait, you're telling us that THIS isn't worth tens of thousands of dollars spread over a decades-long contract?!?

I thought "every space will immerse you in discovering the creative storytelling process".

Am I not immersed by this basic hotel pool fronting a Section 8 apartment complex across Walnut? I could have sworn I was supposed to be immersed.

First Look: Guest Rooms at The Villas at Disneyland Hotel

Get ready to experience the magic of Disney storytelling like never before at The Villas at Disneyland Hotel, opening in Sept. 2023!

disneyparks.disney.go.com

 

[CastAStone]

Pretty sure Riviera isn’t sold out either but that hasn’t prevented them from building more DVC at the Polynesian.

So, yes, but for perspective Riviera sold 72,000 points in March and VDH sold 16,000.

Riviera is on track to sell out in 2026 or early 2027.

VDH is on track to sell out in 2037 or 2038 at its current pace - and is still in year 1 of sales, so based on past DVC properties, we should expect sales to slow down, not speed up.

If I were Disney I would not build anything else for DVC in Anaheim until I figured out how to make people care about the one I already have.

 

[Disney Vault]

So, yes, but for perspective Riviera sold 72,000 points in March and VDH sold 16,000.

Riviera is on track to sell out in 2026 or early 2027.

VDH is on track to sell out in 2037 or 2038 at its current pace - and is still in year 1 of sales, so based on past DVC properties, we should expect sales to slow down, not speed up.

If I were Disney I would not build anything else for DVC in Anaheim until I figured out how to make people care about the one I already have.

Makes sense why they are building a dvc space at the blue sky cellar and expanding the pitch space by GRR

 

[CastAStone]

Wait, you're telling us that THIS isn't worth tens of thousands of dollars spread over a decades-long contract?!?

I thought "every space will immerse you in discovering the creative storytelling process".

Am I not immersed by this basic hotel pool fronting a Section 8 apartment complex across Walnut? I could have sworn I was supposed to be immersed.

First Look: Guest Rooms at The Villas at Disneyland Hotel

Get ready to experience the magic of Disney storytelling like never before at The Villas at Disneyland Hotel, opening in Sept. 2023!

disneyparks.disney.go.com

I still think it’s a huge visual upgrade over the other Disneyland Hotel towers. But the pricing is insane.

This isn’t Orlando.

I can get a very nice 1 bedroom with a full kitchen in walking distance for maybe 30% more than just the nightly taxes on VDH, let alone the dues and the buy-in.

And all I’m giving up is 30 minutes of early entry at 1 park? I’ll just go to the other park.

 

[mickEblu]

Go back and look at the complaints of all the Harbor businesses on why they were against the EGW and how all the foot traffic would bypass them, because of the Disney security bubble. And now imagine all that within a larger security bubble around all the Disney properties including a 3rd gate, it would bypass all those businesses.

There was a feasible work around for the prior complaint. For this there is not. A third gate is not being stopped because of an IHOP, Tony Romas, McDonalds and a Pizza Press. Also like I said, I believe they would be doing more business.

 

[Disney Irish]

There was a feasible work around for the prior complaint. For this there is not. A third gate is not being stopped because of an IHOP, Tony Romas, McDonalds and a Pizza Press. Also like I said, I believe they would be doing more business.

The workaround for the prior complaint was allowing the bridge to be built with public access from Harbor rather than bypassing it like in the original plan. That wouldn't be the case for any security bubble around Disney owned properties.

Its a crude drawing as I didn't quite capture all Disney owned properties. But the red lines represent what would be a Disney security bubble around what would be Disney owned properties including foot bridges and a fantasy scenario where Disney bought GW. The green/white shaded area represent public access and Harbor/Katella businesses. Anyone inside the Disney red areas wouldn't have access to the green/white shaded public areas and vice-versa in order to keep the Disney security bubble. The only way into the Disney areas would be through security screening, including the GW similar to DTD and foot bridges across GW to a 3rd gate. So you aren't going to have the free flow of foot traffic down Harbor in this scenario as Disney wouldn't want just free flow access to the Disney security bubble.

So yeah I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be uproar in this scenario.

 

[mickEblu]

The workaround for the prior complaint was allowing the bridge to be built with public access from Harbor rather than bypassing it like in the original plan. That wouldn't be the case for any security bubble around Disney owned properties.

Its a crude drawing as I didn't quite capture all Disney owned properties. But the red lines represent what would be a Disney security bubble around what would be Disney owned properties including a fantasy scenario where Disney bought GW. The green/white shaded area represent public access and Harbor/Katella businesses. Anyone inside the Disney red areas wouldn't have access to the green/white shaded public areas and vice-versa in order to keep the Disney security bubble. The only way into the Disney areas would be through security screening, including the GW similar to DTD and foot bridges across GW to a 3rd gate. So you aren't going to have the free flow of foot traffic down Harbor in this scenario as Disney wouldn't want just free flow access to the Disney security bubble.

View attachment 782444

So yeah I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be uproar in this scenario.

Has Disney said they would want the entire red area to be a security bubble? Why can’t there be more security tents at the Toy Story lot/ third gate? We currently leave the security bubble anytime we go to any of the on-site hotels. What’s the difference?

 

[TP2000]

I still think it’s a huge visual upgrade over the other Disneyland Hotel towers.

Well, as fond as I am of the 20th century, that's a fairly low bar to reach.

But the pricing is insane.

This isn’t Orlando.

I can get a very nice 1 bedroom with a full kitchen in walking distance for maybe 30% more than just the nightly taxes on VDH, let alone the dues and the buy-in.

And all I’m giving up is 30 minutes of early entry at 1 park? I’ll just go to the other park.

The execs in charge don't seem to understand what their product even is, much less what it is worth.

 

[DisneyAJ]

The workaround for the prior complaint was allowing the bridge to be built with public access from Harbor rather than bypassing it like in the original plan. That wouldn't be the case for any security bubble around Disney owned properties.

Its a crude drawing as I didn't quite capture all Disney owned properties. But the red lines represent what would be a Disney security bubble around what would be Disney owned properties including foot bridges and a fantasy scenario where Disney bought GW. The green/white shaded area represent public access and Harbor/Katella businesses. Anyone inside the Disney red areas wouldn't have access to the green/white shaded public areas and vice-versa in order to keep the Disney security bubble. The only way into the Disney areas would be through security screening, including the GW similar to DTD and foot bridges across GW to a 3rd gate. So you aren't going to have the free flow of foot traffic down Harbor in this scenario as Disney wouldn't want just free flow access to the Disney security bubble.

View attachment 782444

So yeah I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be uproar in this scenario.

There’s no way Disney wouldn’t allow access through either Katella or Disney Way if not both. No one walking from the parks is going to want to walk back through the parking garage/transportation area, and then garden walk to get to whatever ends up on the Toy Story lot. Most people would prefer to go down Harbor and then Katella and I don’t see Disney trying to force that, they’d get lashings from both ends for that.

 

[Disney Irish]

Has Disney said they would want the entire red area to be a security bubble?

Yes as that was the original intent of the EGW project. They wanted to have a security bubble around all Disney owned properties.

Why can’t there be more security tents at the Toy Story lot/ third gate?

There could if its not connected to any other Disney owned property. But in this scenario where Disney also owned GW to have the east side of Harbor all but locked up, I can't imagine they'd want to keep GW open to the public, it would be closed off within the Disney security bubble similar to DTD.

We currently leave the security bubble anytime we go to any of the on-site hotels. What’s the difference?

I expect that will change with the DLForward project as they expand, and also right now is just on the west side of Harbor. Once you try to do the same on the east side of Harbor all that changes too I imagine.

 

[Disney Irish]

There’s no way Disney wouldn’t allow access through either Katella or Disney Way if not both. No one walking from the parks is going to want to walk back through the parking garage/transportation area, and then garden walk to get to whatever ends up on the Toy Story lot. Most people would prefer to go down Harbor and then Katella and I don’t see Disney trying to force that, they’d get lashings from both ends for that.

That is exactly what the original plan was with the Eastern Gateway and why the original complaint from Harbor businesses, divert all foot traffic for Disney off of Harbor and into the Disney security bubble. I don't see how they wouldn't want the same thing if the Disney footprint on the east side of Harbor grew bigger with a purchase of GW and trying to turn TS lot into a 3rd gate.

 

[mickEblu]

Yes as that was the original intent of the EGW project. They wanted to have a security bubble around all Disney owned properties.

Where possible and not at the expense of a third gate (should they so desire) I’d imagine

There could if its not connected to any other Disney owned property. But in this scenario where Disney also owned GW to have the east side of Harbor all but locked up, I can't imagine they'd want to keep GW open to the public, it would be closed off within the Disney security bubble similar to DTD.

They might have to keep GW open to the public and then have more security at Toy Story. With that said, what do you envision a Disney owned Garden Walk looking like? I was thinking it would just be transportation and hotels.

I expect that will change with the DLForward project as they expand, and also right now is just on the west side of Harbor. Once you try to do the same on the east side of Harbor all that changes too I imagine.

How? Have guests go through security before they step into the lobby? That’s doesn’t seem likely or welcoming.

 

[Disney Irish]

Where possible and not at the expense of a third gate (should they so desire) I’d imagine

The idea was to keep as much of any security threats as far away as possible. The moment you open something up to the public the more security risk it becomes.

They might have to keep GW open to the public and then have more security at Toy Story. With that said, what do you envision a Disney owned Garden Walk looking like? I was thinking it would just be transportation and hotels.

Maybe but unlikely, especially abandoning it for just transpo and hotels, again I envision it exactly like DTD an outdoor mall inside Disney's security bubble.

How? Have guests go through security before they step into the lobby? That’s doesn’t seem likely.

Why isn't that exactly what Disney does already for the Disneyland Paris Hotel inside the Park. Or what Uni is doing with the hotel inside Epic Universe.

 

[mickEblu]

Why isn't that exactly what Disney does already for the Disneyland Paris Hotel inside the Park. Or what Uni is doing with the hotel inside Epic Universe.

I don't know what they do. It's hard for me to envision security at the Grand Californian for example anywhere between valet and the lobby. It also seems tacky and not very welcoming.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don't know what they do. It's hard for me to envision security at the Grand Californian for example anywhere between valet and the lobby. It also seems tacky and not very welcoming.

There are hotels around the world, some very high class, that make you go through security before entering the hotel. So I don’t think it’s tacky or unwelcoming in my opinion.

And like I said already done for a Disney hotel.

 

[WoundedDreamer]

The workaround for the prior complaint was allowing the bridge to be built with public access from Harbor rather than bypassing it like in the original plan. That wouldn't be the case for any security bubble around Disney owned properties.

Its a crude drawing as I didn't quite capture all Disney owned properties. But the red lines represent what would be a Disney security bubble around what would be Disney owned properties including foot bridges and a fantasy scenario where Disney bought GW. The green/white shaded area represent public access and Harbor/Katella businesses. Anyone inside the Disney red areas wouldn't have access to the green/white shaded public areas and vice-versa in order to keep the Disney security bubble. The only way into the Disney areas would be through security screening, including the GW similar to DTD and foot bridges across GW to a 3rd gate. So you aren't going to have the free flow of foot traffic down Harbor in this scenario as Disney wouldn't want just free flow access to the Disney security bubble.

View attachment 782444

So yeah I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be uproar in this scenario.

A few points on the security bubble. The security bubble does not/and did not intend include the hotels. Paradise Pier, Disneyland Hotel, and the Grand Californian are all technically outside of the security bubble. I never saw a proposal to move security to the lobby areas of those hotels. The Grand Californian has a security checkpoint located within the hotel adjacent to the special entrance to Disney California Adventure. But families only need to go through that when they are actually entering the park. All individuals entering Downtown Disney, Disney California Adventure, and the Esplanade are required to go through security. But you only go through it when you're attempting to enter the park.

Around the time that the Eastern Gateway was proposed, Disney pushed the security bubble westward to encompass all of Downtown Disney. Disney had a similar aim on the east side of the resort. The following picture illustrates the proposed locations of the 6 security checkpoints.

The red lines represent the locations of the proposed checkpoints. The blue line represents the bridge. You can see that the four security checkpoints on the west side of the resort all came to fruition. To enter Downtown Disney from the hotels, you need to enter either security checkpoints 1 or 2. To enter California Adventure from the Grand Californian, you need to use security checkpoint 3. After parking at Mickey and Friends (and now Pixar Pals) you go through security over at checkpoint 4.

The two checkpoints I've numbered 5 and 6 are the ones that were torpedoed by the demise of the Eastern Gateway project. Checkpoint 5 would have been a small checkpoint exclusively for use by individuals parking at the Toy Story Lot. The location is a little rough, but it's the general idea. Checkpoint 6 was the real controversial one. That checkpoint was the one where all the people using the east garage would have entered.

If Disney actually wanted to integrate Garden Walk into their plans (I'm dubious but anything is possible), they'd have to have two security bubbles that were disconnected. I don't think there's a way to have an uninterrupted walkway from one to the other without use of sky bridges. A monorail, bus, or gondola system could link the two parts without leaving the bubble though.

 

[Disney Irish]

A few points on the security bubble. The security bubble does not/and did not intend include the hotels. Paradise Pier, Disneyland Hotel, and the Grand Californian are all technically outside of the security bubble. I never saw a proposal to move security to the lobby areas of those hotels. The Grand Californian has a security checkpoint located within the hotel adjacent to the special entrance to Disney California Adventure. But families only need to go through that when they are actually entering the park. All individuals entering Downtown Disney, Disney California Adventure, and the Esplanade are required to go through security. But you only go through it when you're attempting to enter the park.

Around the time that the Eastern Gateway was proposed, Disney pushed the security bubble westward to encompass all of Downtown Disney. Disney had a similar aim on the east side of the resort. The following picture illustrates the proposed locations of the 6 security checkpoints.
View attachment 782448
The red lines represent the locations of the proposed checkpoints. The blue line represents the bridge. You can see that the four security checkpoints on the west side of the resort all came to fruition. To enter Downtown Disney from the hotels, you need to enter either security checkpoints 1 or 2. To enter California Adventure from the Grand Californian, you need to use security checkpoint 3. After parking at Mickey and Friends (and now Pixar Pals) you go through security over at checkpoint 4.

The two checkpoints I've numbered 5 and 6 are the ones that were torpedoed by the demise of the Eastern Gateway project. Checkpoint 5 would have been a small checkpoint exclusively for use by individuals parking at the Toy Story Lot. The location is a little rough, but it's the general idea. Checkpoint 6 was the real controversial one. That checkpoint was the one where all the people using the east garage would have entered.

If Disney actually wanted to integrate Garden Walk into their plans (I'm dubious but anything is possible), they'd have to have two security bubbles that were disconnected. I don't think there's a way to have an uninterrupted walkway from one to the other without use of sky bridges. A monorail, bus, or gondola system could link the two parts without leaving the bubble though.

The reason you never saw any updated security checkpoints listed as part of the proposals for DLForward is because that is not really part of the purview of the proposal. The whole proposal is just to get zoning changes, not to put forth security plans. Security is under the purview of Disney corporate and doesn't require City approval on Disney property. So would come after the DLForward approval when Disney starts to plan out the whole west side of the newly rezoned expansion areas. And if we take the original plan from the Eastern Gateway as an example of what they would like for a security bubble its not hard to envision having most if not all of the western expansion within that security bubble including the hotels. Now of course they could keep the hotels outside the security bubble, but given they do it at other Parks (like I mentioned Disneyland Paris), its again not hard to envision they may consider doing that here too. But sure anything is possible and they may just keep it outside the bubble with the rest of everything else of the western expansion inside the bubble.

Also I'm not the one who is thinking Disney would buy Garden Walk, I think that day passed and its not really on Disney's radar anymore. But some here believe that its possible in the future. All I was doing was drawing up a reason why I think a plan with GW and a 3rd gate would be something where Disney would want a larger security bubble around the area, again using the EGW as the example of what they want, and how many of the businesses around Harbor would oppose that. But could they keep GW outside the security bubble, even though DTD is within a security bubble, sure again anything is possible. But again given what we know about what Disney wants in terms of a security bubble, again using the original EGW as the example, it seems more likely they'd want GW and most if not all other Disney properties within a security bubble as much as possible.

 

[etc98]

Didn’t Disney mention bringing something like the Skyliner as an idea for transportation from Disneyland proper to the Toy Story lot? That would also cut off the other businesses from traffic between the two locations, even if there’s not a walking path in the bubble connecting them. Possibly would be even worse, because a walking path could have additional security entrances that could allow easy access to other businesses, but something like a Skyliner definitely can’t.