News Disneyland Working on Future Master Plan- includes Theme Park Expansions, Retail/Entertainment Space, and More!

[TP2000]

Or... completely build over it and make it a tunnel.

They already got part of it covered with the DTD overpass. And they're adding two more overpasses.

Overpass it all!

Meh, I don't know they'd gain much from all that hassle and expense.

A theme park only needs to get people into its lands/developments through a small handful of access points. The bridges here in this new artwork show that nicely, and anything beyond that dual-bridge setup would be overkill or unnecessary. Any back of house needs can be moved into those areas via, well, the back of house along it's western and northern perimeters.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

This is literally what I mean when I say people treat DL too much like a museum. If just adding additions to the original park is still a no-no because it doesn't fit inside the original arbitrary berm then that park can never truly change or expand. If you don't like GE, that's fine of course and I know your opinion on it lol, but it just shows how tough it is to do any major additions to the park. And why DCA was at least a good idea on paper, but unfortunately the park they opened with sucked.

Disneyland is not a museum. It is a historic theme park. It is a product of its time and was someone's dream not a corporate product. this extension will be a coporate product. it wont be made with same love or care that Disneyland was. And I never said I was against the expansion or that it was a "no-no". I said while they may call it an expansion of Disneyland, it will never be Disneyland to me. Disneyland will always be by me considered inside the berm minus toon town because I love Toon Town

 

[fctiger]

Disneyland is not a museum. It is a historic theme park. It is a product of its time and was someone's dream not a corporate product. this extension will be a coporate product. it wont be made with same love or care that Disneyland has.

So it's another way of calling it a museum.

Disney has always been a company, so I don't get your point? Disney was already a global brand before DL ever showed up. It's a product, not the Grand Canyon.

But I'm not trying to argue. I know many people, especially here, feel the way you do. I'm only saying the obvious, for DL to stay relevant, it has to grow like every theme park. If you can't replace 50 year old rides (some that no longer even fit the theme anymore) then your only other option is to expand the borders, right?

 

[el_super]

Aloha,

Does anyone see the new DVC Tower being cancelled and reprogrammed into the new proposal?

No. It should be just as easy to bolt the StarCruiser screens on the windows of the DVC tower as it would be for the rest of DLH.

 

[lazyboy97o]

This is literally what I mean when I say people treat DL too much like a museum. If just adding additions to the original park is still a no-no because it doesn't fit inside the original arbitrary berm then that park can never truly change or expand. If you don't like GE, that's fine of course and I know your opinion on it lol, but it just shows how tough it is to do any major additions to the park. And why DCA was at least a good idea on paper, but unfortunately the park they opened with sucked.

While I don’t think the berm is sacred, the layout of a theme park is a big part of how it works and even if it works well. Of late Disney just sort of plops things down with no real consideration to how it shapes spaces or follows any sort of organization. Even this “possibility” is just a grab bag of random things from elsewhere plopped down together.

 

[CastAStone]

Aloha,

Does anyone see the new DVC Tower being cancelled and reprogrammed into the new proposal?

No. It’s already approved which would be a risk if they started over.

Furthermore I believe they’ve started demo on the back of the house stuff that’s there already; @el_super said in a different thread he’s seen construction trailers in the Lilo lot, and I can’t imagine what else they’d be there for.

Finally, I’ve calculated based on the released room counts that it’s about 3.2 million to 4 million points, depending on exactly how aggressive they are with the point chart. If they sell it for $220 a point (current price for the not-quite-sold-out Copper Creek Villas, the most expensive active DVC), that’s $720-$880 million dollars. It is maybe an $80 million dollar build? That’s a guess; it represents about 4X the build cost of a Hampton Inn. Most DVC watchers think it will sell out in about 18 months.

So Disney will turn perhaps a 1000% gross profit on it.

It’s happening.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

So it's another way of calling it a museum.

Disney has always been a company, so I don't get your point? Disney was already a global brand before DL ever showed up. It's a product, not the Grand Canyon.

But I'm not trying to argue. I know many people, especially here, feel the way you do. I'm only saying the obvious, for DL to stay relevant, it has to grow like every theme park. If you can't replace 50 year old rides (some that no longer even fit the theme anymore) then your only other option is to expand the borders, right?

Disneyland was made because Walt had a vision. He wanted to see if he could do it. He fell in love with the idea. And it shows to this day. even in New Orleans Square which was made after the fact. Disney World's Magic Kingdom and Disneyworld in general was made as a corporate product. Walt wasn't around for it. That is why it lacks his touch and his soul and any charm. To me, if they want to add things in the berm or remove things in the berm , dependig on what it is, I WELCOME IT. like redoing all of Tomorrow Land or getting rid of Autopia and the Subs. I am all for that. but knocking down some walls and building a new park and claiming its an extension of Disneyland, nope. Not ever gonna consider it Disneyland. I will eventually go to this new "expansion" some day but i would rather spend a 2 day ticket on Disneyland proper.

 

[Brer Oswald]

This is literally what I mean when I say people treat DL too much like a museum. If just adding additions to the original park is still a no-no because it doesn't fit inside the original arbitrary berm then that park can never truly change or expand. If you don't like GE, that's fine of course and I know your opinion on it lol, but it just shows how tough it is to do any major additions to the park. And why DCA was at least a good idea on paper, but unfortunately the park they opened with sucked.

The “arbitrary berm” was how the park was intentionally designed. One entrance that leads into a “wheel” that branches out into different lands. This is so the lands are easy to access. If I have to walk through Adventureland to get to NOS, which I walk through to get to Critter Country, which I have to walk to some dead end land in a corner, it defeats the purpose of the originally crafted design.

Out of all the parks in the US, Disneyland Park needs the least new expansion. But if you have to have something, there’s a land that’s begging for attention. A land that, arguably, has only one ride worth keeping. Tomorrowland.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

If this ever becomes a real thing, the maps with the expansion on there are going to start reminding me of those fun maps that had the Disneyland Hotel on there:

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

If this ever becomes a real thing, the maps with the expansion on there are going to start reminding me of those fun maps that had the Disneyland Hotel:
View attachment 542955

They will probably have 2 maps. one for Disneyland then a 2nd one that covers the expansion areas.

 

[fctiger]

While I don’t think the berm is sacred, the layout of a theme park is a big part of how it works and even if it works well. Of late Disney just sort of plops things down with no real consideration to how it shapes spaces or follows any sort of organization. Even this “possibility” is just a grab bag of random things from elsewhere plopped down together.

I don't disagree, but again, what can you do??? Theme parks have to build new rides or attractions or people will stop going as much. Obviously I'm not talking about us, I mean casual visitors and tourists. The original berm can't handle the crazy capacity it has today (or had ). Forget about just adding new rides, we know the walkways are too small, the lands are too cramped minus Frontierland so they have to find a way for crowds to breath. That's why GE has so much space now. DL back in 1950 was considered a pretty big size park. But now, it's on the smaller side of most newer Disney parks today.

I'm not just talking about what they add, but they have to add SOMETHING and expand it, especially if the idea is to get more tourists in the coming years. That's literally what the original DCA project was about. They just don't have the room and they are probably thinking about the next 50 years when we are all dead and buried.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

I'm trying to find the post that gave the acreage of the DL expansion, but it's interesting to me that if these expansions did happen Disneyland would officially become bigger than the Magic Kingdom (I believe DL is currently around 95 acres while MK is 105 acres).

 

[fctiger]

The “arbitrary berm” was how the park was intentionally designed. One entrance that leads into a “wheel” that branches out into different lands. This is so the lands are easy to access. If I have to walk through Adventureland to get to NOS, which I walk through to get to Critter Country, which I have to walk to some dead end land in a corner, it defeats the purpose of the originally crafted design.

Out of all the parks in the US, Disneyland Park needs the least new expansion. But if you have to have something, there’s a land that’s begging for attention. A land that, arguably, has only one ride worth keeping. Tomorrowland.

Yes for a 1950s crowd and population size. Today it's waaaaay too small for the capacity DL has now.

Guys I'm not arguing the original berm wasn't well though out at the time. But it's really outdated now because the park is just too small. Parks like MK, DLP and TDL are all much bigger parks and can easily hold over 50,000 people. DL can't, so they have to expand, right? HKDL is the only park smaller than DL because Eisner was too cheap to build a real park. And today, I kid you not EVERY new addition to that park sadly is being built outside the berm. It's no way they could add any major additions there for the size it has and it's only a 15 year old park.

And your point about Tomorrowland , I 100% agree with you, they can raze most of that land and build something new. But every time someone like me suggest that that even gets push back by people here lol. That's literally the issue. Either DL has to be given the chance to repurpose big areas in the original berm OR it has to keep expanding from the original. There are really your only two options kids.

And if neither of those are real options, then yes, it's basically a museum lol. It's not a museum, it's a theme park, one that still has to stay relevant just like the others.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't disagree, but again, what can you do??? Theme parks have to build new rides or attractions or people will stop going as much. Obviously I'm not talking about us, I mean casual visitors and tourists. The original berm can't handle the crazy capacity it has today (or had ). Forget about just adding new rides, we know the walkways are too small, the lands are too cramped minus Frontierland so they have to find a way for crowds to breath. That's why GE has so much space now. DL back in 1950 was considered a pretty big size park. But now, it's on the smaller side of most newer Disney parks today.

I'm not just talking about what they add, but they have to add SOMETHING and expand it, especially if the idea is to get more tourists in the coming years. That's literally what the original DCA project was about. They just don't have the room and they are probably thinking about the next 50 years when we are all dead and buried.

Disneyland is the example of how much can be done with space when it is really thoughtfully considered. Despite its small size it has more attractions than any of the other Disneyland parks. Galaxy’s Edge is so massive with so little because that’s all Disney knows how to do these days. There still exist areas like the Motorboat Cruise plot that could hold something. The area between Main Street, USA and Tomorrowland remains open despite being eyed for expansion from the beginning. Then there is just building out Disney’s California Adventure in a compelling and thoughtful manner, and yes, eventually a third park. Especially with Disney’s California Adventure, the distinction as gates could be more of a formality that does allow for higher effective prices as the gates are essentially treated as a single park like Universal Studios Florida and Islands of Adventure (but hopefully with a more distinct identity).

 

[fctiger]

Disneyland was made because Walt had a vision. He wanted to see if he could do it. He fell in love with the idea. And it shows to this day. even in New Orleans Square which was made after the fact. Disney World's Magic Kingdom and Disneyworld in general was made as a corporate product. Walt wasn't around for it. That is why it lacks his touch and his soul and any charm. To me, if they want to add things in the berm or remove things in the berm , dependig on what it is, I WELCOME IT. like redoing all of Tomorrow Land or getting rid of Autopia and the Subs. I am all for that. but knocking down some walls and building a new park and claiming its an extension of Disneyland, nope. Not ever gonna consider it Disneyland. I will eventually go to this new "expansion" some day but i would rather spend a 2 day ticket on Disneyland proper.

Dude I agree with all of this. Unfortunately it is no longer 1955. It's 2021, we live in a veeeery different time now. The park is just too small. I'm not debating what should actually go in the expansion, everyone will have their own ideas and Disney will just do what it wants. We all know that. But regardless it should be allowed to expand, period.

We're not WDW, but the irony is WDW is only that because Walt Disney realized he built something that was waaaaay too small for the demand.. He recognized that right away. If he knew what he built would be so popular today you're now building major parks in China out of all places, then the park would've been much bigger to begin with. At least the area. Now they are in a very tough bind.

And for you to say its never going to be the original DL is very closed minded. But it doesn't matter, all that matters is people will A. go and B. pay more for it. And we both know neither will be a problem.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Yes for a 1950s crowd and population size. Today it's waaaaay too small for the capacity DL has now.

Guys I'm not arguing the original berm wasn't well though out at the time. But it's really outdated now because the park is just too small. Parks like MK, DLP and TDL are all much bigger parks and can easily hold over 50,000 people. DL can't, so they have to expand, right? HKDL is the only park smaller than DL because Eisner was too cheap to build a real park. And today, I kid you not EVERY new addition to that park sadly is being built outside the berm. It's no way they could add any major additions there for the size it has and it's only a 15 year old park.

And your point about Tomorrowland , I 100% agree with you, they can raze most of that land and build something new. But every time someone like me suggest that that even gets push back by people here lol. That's literally the issue. Either DL has to be given the chance to repurpose big areas in the original berm OR it has to keep expanding from the original. There are really your only two options kids.

And if neither of those are real options, then yes, it's basically a museum lol. It's not a museum, it's a theme park, one that still has to stay relevant just like the others.

There’s some questions I think you should consider:
Does Disneyland get the same attendance as Magic Kingdom?
Would more high capacity attractions eat up more people than more lands?
Would building up DCA as a more appealing park take some of the crowds away from Disneyland?

I don’t think adding a hidden land that you have to travel through three others to get to is great for capacity. It’s a dead end, and once it’s no longer new, it’s not going to eat many people up with how difficult it is to get to.

I’m not sure why “Disneyland is not a museum” is always brought up to justify bad design choices, or replacements of beloved rides. There are plenty of areas that don’t attract a lot of people, and should be repurposed. The carousel theatre, the people mover tracks, Autopia, the Fantasyland Theatre. But classic attractions that people like shouldn’t be replaced for the sake of staying “relevant”. Relevancy is a stupid thing to try to chase with theme parks because you are always going to be behind. You aim to make something timeless, and if you succeed and it’s popular, you hold onto it for dear life.

 

[fctiger]

Disneyland is the example of how much can be done with space when it is really thoughtfully considered. Despite its small size it has more attractions than any of the other Disneyland parks. Galaxy’s Edge is so massive with so little because that’s all Disney knows how to do these days. There still exist areas like the Motorboat Cruise plot that could hold something. The area between Main Street, USA and Tomorrowland remains open despite being eyed for expansion from the beginning. Then there is just building out Disney’s California Adventure in a compelling and thoughtful manner, and yes, eventually a third park. Especially with Disney’s California Adventure, the distinction as gates could be more of a formality that does allow for higher effective prices as the gates are essentially treated as a single park like Universal Studios Florida and Islands of Adventure (but hopefully with a more distinct identity).

DCA is not DL, you guys make that point here over and over again lol.

They don't have the space to build a third park in the vicinity. It's not WDW, any place outside of the main resort area is frankly just a pain. TDR figured that out themselves when they announced building a third theme park only to back track and cancel that idea and build out their two existing parks out for the next decade. It's literally the same plan DLR wants to do now. So a third park is just a pipe dream, especially when DCA is not even a full day park yet for most.

We're not that much on a different page. If DL could truly expand within the berm, great. But it clearly can't. People here don't even want to knock down a 60 year old kiddie car ride, that's the problem. So this is option 2. And it's a good one. Everyone seem genuinely excited about the idea for a reason, They want more of the Disney magic.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The park is just too small.

And what happens when all of these extra people try to watch the fireworks in front of Sleeping Beauty Castle?

DCA is not DL, you guys make that point here over and over again lol.

They don't have the space to build a third park in the vicinity. It's not WDW, any place outside of the main resort area is frankly just a pain. TDR figured that out themselves when they announced building a third theme park only to back track and cancel that idea and build out their two existing parks out for the next decade. It's literally the same plan DLR wants to do now. So a third park is just a pipe dream, especially when DCA is not even a full day park yet for most.

We're not that much on a different page. If DL could truly expand within the berm, great. But it clearly can't. People here don't even want to knock down a 60 year old kiddie car ride, that's the problem. So this is option 2. And it's a good one. Everyone seem genuinely excited about the idea for a reason, They want more of the Disney magic.

And Islands of Adventure is not Universal Studios Florida, but the visitation pattern is one where they are treated as a singular destination. There is no reason that Disney’s California Adventure could not be built up to be a compelling destination that draws attendance that is far closer to that of Disneyland.

 

[fctiger]

There’s some questions I think you should consider:
Does Disneyland get the same attendance as Magic Kingdom?
Would more high capacity attractions eat up more people than more lands?
Would building up DCA as a more appealing park take some of the crowds away from Disneyland?

I don’t think adding a hidden land that you have to travel through three others to get to is great for capacity. It’s a dead end, and once it’s no longer new, it’s not going to eat many people up with how difficult it is to get to.

I’m not sure why “Disneyland is not a museum” is always brought up to justify bad design choices, or replacements of beloved rides. There are plenty of areas that don’t attract a lot of people, and should be repurposed. The carousel theatre, the people mover tracks, Autopia, the Fantasyland Theatre. But classic attractions that people like shouldn’t be replaced for the sake of staying “relevant”. Relevancy is a stupid thing to try to chase with theme parks because you are always going to be behind. You aim to make something timeless, and if you succeed and it’s popular, you hold onto it for dear life.

In 2019 DL was the second most visited park in the world. MK beat it out, but by only 2 million. That park got 20 million people while DL got 18 million. For the first time EVER, it beat out Tokyo Disneyland. The first time in over 20 years. They clearly want all these parks to get higher attendance, the only way to do that is to create a roomier park with more lands and rides.

Dude I have suggested ALL those things here where they can build in the park, literally just two weeks ago. And people still push back on it lol. The original park just has too much nostalgia. Even for DCA, that's starting to build in. That's the problem. People treat the park like its a museum. Can you imagine someone ever suggesting knocking down POTC? Can you ever knock that down? If the answer is no, then that literally goes to the point. It's no longer just an attraction, it's now a sacred landmark like the Stature of Liberty or Yosemite.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I’m not sure why “Disneyland is not a museum” is always brought up to justify bad design choices, or replacements of beloved rides.

It's an awful saying, truly. It was even quoted by Kim Irvine in that Imagineering series she ruined on Disney Plus. What a piece of work that one is. I don't even agree with the interpretation of Walt's "Disneyland will never be complete" quote. That doesn't mean they should just change everything. What do we end up with? Biege rocks, downtown Baghdad junkyard, Xbox games and Redd the Oirish chicken lady.