News Disneyland to give Snow White’s Scary Adventures dark ride a major facelift in 2020

[CaptinEO]

The people making the decisions are more progressive than I am. I didn't really have much of a problem with the skulls in Adventureland or the guns in Frontierland, but here we are.

Yet you seem to support and champion change as long as society demands it. When does the artist get to create and have their work stand on its own solely based on their vision?

Michelangelo's sistine chapel is considered a masterpiece of art. Yet at one point in time, just 2 decades later, the current trend was to censor anything obscene, so clothes were drawn over the nude figures.

Now people are fine with nude paintings and consider them works of art, yet those original paintings no longer exist in the sistine Chapel.

To censor something based on a current societal standard is to rob a future generation of history.

 

[CaptinEO]

These dark rides don’t have very high capacity, and unless they added more vehicles the reduction in speed means reduced capacity.

who has suggested anything close to this?

Exactly. Which is why wait time alone isn't a good measure of popularity. People think a long wait means more people like that ride, which has never been the case.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

That's a good way of looking at it. If he was a cad, then there's no reciprocal love and she would remain asleep and never wake up. This is a one time kiss. No one else kissed her, not even the dwarves.

This is the second reason the kiss is appropriate. The first reason is she's presumed dead.

Let's think of some more.

Man oh man, if only the review had thought to say that the kiss was fine within the context of a fairytale. Oh, wait. It did.

 

[el_super]

When did you hear the shooting gallery is being closed permanently? Both DL and WDW's websites are listing it as "Temporarily Unavailable".

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there's any formality to it being a permanent change, just that it's boarded up and shut down now. They might come back.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

who has suggested anything close to this?

See this post below from @el_super which I quoted.

The implication is that SW7D is an attraction waning in popularity due to an aging IP. While there may be a point there, I’d argue it’s that the attraction requires a refresh since carney/boardwalk style dark rides are not nearly as popular in North America and today’s children/families as they were in the mid-20th century and do not connect with that style.

So what happens when the audience rejects that history? Does it have to stay on and stay open even if no one is riding it? Snow White's Scary Adventure always had the shortest wait in Fantasyland. I'd dare to suggest that will be true again in a few months time. If a ride is not entertaining, it doesn't belong in the park. Period. Walt knew the value of removing attractions that don't work, so why can't you?

 

[el_super]

As I and others have said, it’s a delicate balance. And at least at this juncture or wouldn’t make sense to throw out Snow White as a franchise given its critical importance for the company and continued commercial appeal.

I agree.

I’ll close with: It’s also important to remember that while a squeaky wheel may get the grease, a few loud voices with a megaphone does not a majority make. I’ll reiterate that it’s important to appeal to the broadest audience possible... both the new generation and the “legacy” customers who are nostalgic for the franchises they grew up on. Since it’s neither a museum nor shopping mall, a theme park can be both an evolving product and the sum of all its parts. The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact both are necessary to maintain the broadest possible audience.

I also agree, but with the caveat that, even if you disagree, voices should be heard and respected. Even if they are in the minority now, the author of that article represents others who also think that the portrayal is problematic. When and if it will be enough to justify changing the ride, is still to be determined.

Ultimately though, it's the idea that Disneyland cannot or should not change due to societal pressure that needs to be questioned here. Disneyland has a long history of bending to the will of the people, so when questions or comments like the above on Snow White are presented, consideration needs to be taken. Otherwise when action comes, as we saw with Splash, people are left with a sense of surprise and suddenness that wasn't warranted. It seems to stoke strong emotions from people who were in denial for a long time.

Change at Disneyland is nothing new. Alcatraz was occupied in 1969, and by May of 1971, before the occupation was over, Disneyland ditched the "Indian War Canoes" name.

 

[el_super]

Yet you seem to support and champion change as long as society demands it.

Yes. Absolutely.

When does the artist get to create and have their work stand on its own solely based on their vision?

When they can figure out a way to operate it without charging admission for it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Exactly. Which is why wait time alone isn't a good measure of popularity. People think a long wait means more people like that ride, which has never been the case.

It is when the rides have similar capacities. More telling is a willingness to reduce capacity.

By bringing it up as a problem, they clearly felt there was the need to discuss the work of fiction in the context of reality, so they are a hypocrite.

You keep saying stuff like this as though it is new and absurd. Fiction is often discussed in the context of reality. Fictional stories that glorify questionable actions and values have always been criticized.

See this post below from @el_super which I quoted.

The implication is that SW7D is an attraction waning in popularity due to an aging IP. While there may be a point there, I’d argue it’s that the attraction requires a refresh since carney/boardwalk style dark rides are not nearly as popular in North America and today’s children/families as they were in the mid-20th century and do not connect with that style.

Presenting a hypothetical future scenario is nowhere near close to advocating for action now.

 

[CaptinEO]

It is when the rides have similar capacities. More telling is a willingness to reduce capacity.

You keep saying stuff like this as though it is new and absurd. Fiction is often discussed in the context of reality. Fictional stories that glorify questionable actions and values have always been criticized.

I am not saying it's a new concept at all. Just saying it's rediculous to bring up something from a fairytale as being fine but also claim it's a problem.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

Presenting a hypothetical future scenario is nowhere near close to advocating for action now.

Yeah, I agree. I’ll add to the chorus (again) to say it’s all much ado about nothing.

But hey, it’s a slow(ish) work day and we’re humoring each other. Lol. It’s merely for “discussion” purposes after all.

 

[DanielBB8]

Man oh man, if only the review had thought to say that the kiss was fine within the context of a fairytale. Oh, wait. It did.

You mean when this is buried at the end of the screed.

"Still, with the twinkling lights all around and the gorgeous special effects, that final scene is beautifully executed — as long as you're watching it as a fairy tale, not a life lesson."

Two paragraphs before it was a wonderment of hysteria when she isn't viewing it as a fairy tale, but as a woke woman without her smelling salts.

"The new ride includes a more comprehensive storyline — but that's also the problem. The new grand finale of Snow White's Enchanted Wish is the moment when the Prince finds Snow White asleep under the Evil Queen's spell and gives her "true love's kiss" to release her from the enchantment. A kiss he gives to her without her consent, while she's asleep (DEAD), which cannot possibly be true love if only one person knows it's happening.

Haven't we already agreed that consent in early Disney movies is a major issue? That teaching kids that kissing, when it hasn't been established if both parties are willing to engage, is not OK? It's hard to understand why the Disneyland of 2021 would choose to add a scene with such old fashioned ideas of what a man is allowed to do to a woman, especially given the company's current emphasis on removing problematic scenes from rides like Jungle Cruise and Splash Mountain. Why not re-imagine an ending in keeping with the spirit of the movie and Snow White's place in the Disney canon, but that avoids this problem?"

I hope Disney can still produce fairy tales, because she really doesn't think so. Also, I didn't know Snow White has 2 villains, the evil Queen and Prince Charming.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

By bringing it up as a problem, they clearly felt there was the need to discuss the work of fiction in the context of reality, so they are a hypocrite.

I am not saying it's a new concept at all. Just saying it's rediculous to bring up something from a fairytale as being fine but also claim it's a problem.

Doesn't seem ridiculous at all. A murder would be fine within the context of a horror movie about murders, but would not be fine in real life. This is obviously an important distinction to teach children, that fiction is not reality. Just like with a fairy tale. Do you think children want to meet the costumed characters because they know that it's a college programmer in a fur suit? No... to a child, Snow White and her Prince are real. That's why stuff like this makes excellent jumping points for discussion.

Do you really believe that children don't take any kind of life lessons from fictional media?

 

[DanielBB8]

The funny thing is there are a million Disney movies with kissing, morern ones included, and none of the characters ask to kiss the other characters.

I mean Little Mermaid has a whole song with the animals trying to get Prince Eric to kiss Ariel.

Enchanted, Sleeping Beauty, Tangled, there's lots of examples. If you look outside the realm of Disney you have ET, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc.

I think most movies with kisses do not have a scene asking for permission.

Ariel can't even speak. Her voice was taken by Ursula, who told her to use body language. Imagine the outcry when she can't even give permission.

 

[CaptinEO]

I challenge someone who thinks Snow White is problematic to name a Disney movie that isn't problematic by the same stretch of imagination.

Raya has children fighting eachother with weapons within the first 5 minutes of the movie.

 

[DanielBB8]

I wonder if the author implies it shouldn't be a life lesson contrary to what some of you are saying.

""Still, with the twinkling lights all around and the gorgeous special effects, that final scene is beautifully executed — as long as you're watching it as a fairy tale, not a life lesson."

She broke her brain thinking about this. Don't do this to your kid. It's parental malpractice.

 

[Stevek]

I challenge someone who thinks Snow White is problematic to name a Disney movie that isn't problematic by the same stretch of imagination.

Raya has children fighting eachother with weapons within the first 5 minutes of the movie.

And therein lies the issue we will likely be facing more and more with today's society...someone can find something problematic or "offensive" in pretty much everything if you want to look hard enough. Seriously, should we ever have Princess Leia appear in any attraction given she kisses her brother. Incest is pretty bad ya know.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

You are just making my point clearer.

Kids think Snow White and Peter Pan are real, why wouldn't they also see the horror movies as being real? Children may play violent video games and not realize the impact of violence and murder.

Furthermore children can view violence in the context of media and commit violent acts without realize that those acts are permanent (aka confusing fantasy with reality).

My issue is that this entire discussion shouldn't be about Snow White, it needs to just be about fiction vs reality.

You can find "problematic" scenes and characters in almost any movie in existence.

It honestly seems like we're on the same page in a lot of ways here?

I think most of us are trying to have a larger conversation about the issue. The scene in Snow White was just the jumping point that started it, but some posters insist on bringing it back to being specifically about Snow White.

We used to be able to have conversations like this in the Political sub-forum (though I really don't believe any of this to be a political issue), but apparently that disappeared at some point?

 

[MisterPenguin]

There is no "woke" movement looking to cancel Snow White, or this ride, or its ending. That "movement" doesn't exist except in the minds of people who want to paint the whole "woke movement" with the stupidity of the one author in question who thinks the prince is kissing someone he thinks is sleeping rather than dead.

I'm woke and I'm OK with the new ending of the ride and the movie in general.

Disney's woke, and they're OK with the new ending of the ride and the movie in general.

There are no marches or Twitter hashtag movements to "cancel" Snow White or this ride.

Doesn't exist.

Except as one person's idiocy and as a right-wing straw man.

And now, this...

Disney To Remove Problematic Kiss From Classic Movie, Snow White Will Now Remain Dead

BURBANK CA—After mounting criticism from an avalanche of 3 people online, Disney has decided to release a new cut of the classic film Snow White. In the new version, Prince Charming will refrain from a non-consensual kiss and leave her to die instead.

babylonbee.com

 

[CaptinEO]

There is no "woke" movement looking to cancel Snow White, or this ride, or its ending. That "movement" doesn't exist except in the minds of people who want to paint the whole "woke movement" with the stupidity of the one author in question who thinks the prince is kissing someone he thinks is sleeping rather than dead.

I'm woke and I'm OK with the new ending of the ride and the movie in general.

Disney's woke, and they're OK with the new ending of the ride and the movie in general.

There are no marches or Twitter hashtag movements to "cancel" Snow White or this ride.

Doesn't exist.

Except as one person's idiocy and as a right-wing straw man.

And now, this...

Disney To Remove Problematic Kiss From Classic Movie, Snow White Will Now Remain Dead

BURBANK CA—After mounting criticism from an avalanche of 3 people online, Disney has decided to release a new cut of the classic film Snow White. In the new version, Prince Charming will refrain from a non-consensual kiss and leave her to die instead.

babylonbee.com

Clearly people think the film has a serious issue and it needs to be seriously discussed. Based on current trends that does seem the next natural progression is people will ask for Snow White to be cancelled.

Yet Little Mermaid has a ride with a "kiss the girl" scene where they encourage Prince Eric to kiss unconsenting Ariel.

As a fan of Disneyland and a fan of Snow White of course I'll push back against illegitimate attempts to target Snow White.

People claim "they are just using Snow White to have a conversation about consent". Why do you need a cartoon movie to have a discussion?

Why do you need to target a single piece of media with a non consential kiss when there are millions of others?

Do we need Pirates of the Caribbean to have conversations about looting and burning towns?

 

[el_super]

Moral of the story is apparently according to this article taking away a life (what the Queen did) is fine, bringing someone back to life (what the Prince did) is an issue.

What the queen did isn't fine. Her vanity and jealousy did her in. Maybe that was more clear in the previous incarnation of the ride. That was the value lesson being taught. Now that the ride is more about Snow White and her "Enchanted Wish" the morality/lesson being taught isn't as clear. What is she wishing for? To be married? To get a man? Is that what women should strive for? Is the lesson that, if you look pretty and are young, the world will just give you what you want?

It seems less clear now.