Disneyland: The AP issue

[Travel Junkie]

Not a bad idea but that would just make Monday thru Thursday's more unbearable.

For the most part that is what they are now and outside of special events like Halloween and Christmas, weekdays aren't that bad.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

That would be a good analogy if Disney knew the exact number of tickets sold versus the exact number of guests coming each day. But since guests coming in don't always buy tickets directly from Disney and with APs its hard to limit the number sold.

That true. I guess what I meant was limit the number of people admitted each day.

You could say the reverse, only allow a certain number of people in. However how fair is it to have someone who bought day tickets for that once in a lifetime vacation be blocked.

Technology could solve for situations like that with special encryption, Magic Bands, mobile apps, blah blah blah. The point is that none of this is impossible to solve.

You could limit the number of APs in daily, but then you'd get a revolt.

You would, but it would be short lived. Maybe there is a threshold Disney can cross to completely alienate its AP fan base but I've never seen it.

 

[Travel Junkie]

Common sense would dictate that you only sell the number of tickets that allows for reasonable guest safety and comfort. You wouldn't sell 150 tickets to a show in a theater than can only seat 100, yet that is exactly what Disney is doing.

I could see them going to a buy in advance only model if they. AP's would have to schedule in advance and once you hit the capacity no more tickets are sold.

Tokyo Disney has a version of a pre-planning model in place. When you buy your ticket you pick which park you are going to. For two day tickets you have to choose which park with day you go. Only three an four day tickets allow park hopping. Once tickets for a park hit capacity, they stop selling tickets and can't buy day of unless you are staying onsite.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I could see them going to a buy in advance only model if they. AP's would have to schedule in advance and once you hit the capacity no more tickets are sold.

Tokyo Disney has a version of a pre-planning model in place. When you buy your ticket you pick which park you are going to. For two day tickets you have to choose which park with day you go. Only three an four day tickets allow park hopping. Once tickets for a park hit capacity, they stop selling tickets and can't buy day of unless you are staying onsite.

I remember when TDL first opened you could book "reservations". Basically it was an admission ticket that was good for a specific date guaranteeing entry even if the park had reached capacity.

 

[Antaundra]

Been to lots of hit theater plays, operas, symphonies, and ballets in many cities, including San Francisco, New York, Barcelona and London, and I've never once witnessed people standing in the aisles to watch a show.

Here's a round up of the different standing room policies of Broadway theaters. I attend Broadway shows and touring shows in LA and San Francisco regularly. Broadway is the only place where I've seen people standing at the back of the theater. I saw Hamilton in San Francisco twice and those crowds were some of the most unbearable I've ever experienced. The last show I had seen at the Orpheum was The Lion King and the theater for that show was very full but it wasn't completely sold out like Hamilton was.

http://www.playbill.com/article/broadway-rush-lottery-and-standing-room-only-policies-com-116003

 

[JD2000]

Wipe them out. All of them.

This is the correct and only solution!

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Broadway is the only place where I've seen people standing at the back of the theater.

Sounds like a horrible experience. Much like Disneyland on a too crowded day.

 

[Disney Irish]

That true. I guess what I meant was limit the number of people admitted each day.



Technology could solve for situations like that with special encryption, Magic Bands, mobile apps, blah blah blah. The point is that none of this is impossible to solve.



You would, but it would be short lived. Maybe there is a threshold Disney can cross to completely alienate its AP fan base but I've never seen it.

The problem with any of these "solutions" is it will alienate someone, either the tourist, the APs, or both. Alienate too many people and it hits the bottom line, Disney will never do that. Disney will continue to tweak all ticket media including APs until it finds a balance, whether that is higher prices or removal of certain AP levels or something else.

 

[Darkbeer1]

OK, let's look at the history, first is a history of AP Prices, which started in 1984. (The original had no barcode, just yor name tped, and a photo, that was then laminated.

http://www.mousemonthly.com/ultimate-disney-guides/disneyland-resort-annual-passes/ap-price-history/

My first AP was in the 1990's, about the same time the resort expansion started.

Then Disney was so sure they had a hit with DCA, they announced they would stop selling AP's when the park opened, but allowed current AP holders a chance to upgrade to a 2-park AP in the fall of 2000, it caused LONG lines at the processing center, and you had to pay for a new one, but got a credit for the time remaining on your old one. One issue they ran into, a large percentage of AP's now have the same basic expiration date, which put additional strains when they had to renew, plus calculate the rebates given when they lowered the price in 2001.

Now, here are somethings I wrote, helped write, or edited, plus some I had nothing to do with, but I think the majority had my hands on it.

First is something I didn't have anything to do with, but a great piece of history...

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/11/travel/a-park-adults-can-love.html

And this from 2002...

https://www.mouseplanet.com/7543/Pesky_Passholders

>>What changed everything was the general public's chilly reception last year to Disney's California Adventure. Disney was so sure the new park would draw in full-fare-paying guests that it suspended sales of annual passes to both parks. By the end of the year, Disney realized that the once-shunned class of APs might be their only way to get warm bodies inside the new park on a daily basis. Annual pass prices were slashed and Disneyland-only annual passes eliminated. The number of annual passholders skyrocketed higher into the hundreds of thousands.

APs are now seen as crucial to guaranteeing a base number of guests throughout the resort, throughout the year. First, management would have to change its own attitude toward APs. Several months ago, the resort created a new position, Manager of Annual Passholder Programs. His job is to coordinate various perks and bonuses for the AP demographic, and spearhead new AP initiatives.<<

>>The next objective is changing the average cast member's perceptions of APs. During a recent daily management briefing ("Mickey's Roll Call"), a duty manager (now called "Theme Park 1") addressed the topic of better appreciating annual passholders. He reminded his charges that on slower days as much as 70% of the park's attendance can be APs. He implored them to value passholders, not view them as a nuisance. After all, he summarized, referring to our own notorious nit-picker: "Not every passholder is Al Lutz."<<

>>As a ride operator concluded: "I agree with both sides of the coin—APs are not appreciated enough by a cast who would have far fewer hours if not be out of work entirely during the off season if not for the vast number of annual pass holders; and there is certainly a small number of APs that need to be evaluated for annual pass eligibility."<<

So that is 15 years ago!

Now, from November 19th, 2001, from MousePlanet back when Al Lutz, myself and others a;; were in the same site, before MiceAge started. (No link available)

>>
Giving Away DCA

In case you missed our news update yesterday:
Disneyland Resort radically reduces two park Annual Pass pricing
Reacting to continuing attendance problems at the California Adventure park, the Disneyland Resort has dramatically reduced prices of and restructured their Annual Passport (AP) ticket program. Pricing for both parks is now at past single park levels, with the premium $299 dual park passport level discontinued.
What this means is that the $199 Premium level annual pass now allows admission into both parks (the same as the previous Disneyland only price) with no blackout days, which is a $100 reduction from the past price. (If you have paid $299 after August 1st of this year, you will get four months added on to your pass to reflect the new pricing levels.) Current Disneyland only $199 premium passholders will be upgraded for free for the remainder of their passes, but need to have a new card issued to them at the park.
Current single park lower level Disneyland only passholders may upgrade their passes to gain admission to both parks for $10. The new prices are $149 for Deluxe level (some blackout days) and $99 for Southern California (more blackout days).
All future Annual Passes will be only for both parks - basically giving the customer admission into California Adventure for a $10 increase over the past single park Disneyland only price.Upcoming incentives for passholders also include a free dessert with $20 food purchase, and a free pin offered starting December 5th.

They had planned California Adventure (DCA) to be packed all of last year. Pricing was set at the same levels as Disneyland, and they only provided a quarter of the attractions - many of those just movies.

With this new AP price point, and the current resident $6 one day ticket upgrade which allows two days at any single park, (or the ability to park hop on the same day) this is about the clearest signal yet that this new park has failed in everything it was supposed to do.

The constant misfires - particularly in entertainment offerings such as the Steps in Time and LuminAria shows only served to create more bad word of mouth this year. Last minute "fixes" such as the return of the Electric Parade, and giving away kids tickets served to fuel media attention on how bad the park was doing, as will this latest discount.

For people eligible for the discount, I do think they have finally valued this new park at what it is worth to a visitor expecting Disneyland quality, which it does not deliver. For out of town visitors who purchase a multiple day ticket that allows park hopping, the value is there also now for them.

Treating DCA as an addition to your Disneyland day, at either same or just a little bit extra admission ($6 in this case) deals well with the value issue which has dogged this park since before it was built. (Mind you, the park is still a mess, but the price is now in sync with what a visitor gets.)<<

The November 30th, 2000 announced pricing...

>>Disneyland.com has released a trickle of information on the new 2-Park Disneyland Resort Annual Passports. The three Annual Passports choices currently offered Premium, Deluxe and Southern California, remain essentially the same. You may purchase a 2-Park version of each for an increased amount. The price structure is as follow:

Premium
Disneyland Only: $199
2-Park: $299
Deluxe
Disneyland Only: $139
2-Park: $199
Southern California
Disneyland Only: $89
2-Park: $149<<

From the February 5th, 2001 LA Times

>>Concerned that the highly anticipated opening of its neighboring park may lead to overcrowding, Disneyland cut off sales of its yearlong "passports" for the first time in park history Saturday.
The move, which park officials called temporary, came five days before the opening of the California Adventure theme park and follows three rare Disneyland sellouts in December.
Passports, the Disneyland equivalent of a season pass, allowed guests park access for a year. Prices depended on whether guests were willing to accept blackout dates when their passes would not be honored. A premium passport good at both parks, 365 days a year, sold for $299.
Guests who already own passports to Disneyland and California Adventure will be able to renew them when they expire, said Disneyland spokesman Ray Gomez.
He said the passports will go on sale again, but when is unknown.
With a limit of 30,000 guests at California Adventure, Disney officials were concerned that so many passport holders might show up at the park that it would prohibit others from buying tickets at the gate, Gomez said."<<

So there are some looks back as to wherte the AP program started to have major effects on the parks...

 

[Darkbeer1]

Ok, let's look at today, and the Southern California Market..

Disneyland offers 2 version of its 2 park AP's

SoCal Select - $339)
Less than half the year, no weekends, holidays, and peak spring/summer

Regular SoCal - $469
About half the year, no Saturdays, holidays and peak spring/summer

Knott's Berry Farm SP - $92 (Payment Plan, no deposit)
Good every day except Christmas
Knott's 2 park - $110

Universal Studios Hollywood California Neighbor Pass $129 (No Payment Plan)
Valid for 9 months after first use, 175 days available
Costco Neighbor Pass - $120
Valid for on year (AP), over 215 days available
Silver AP - $169 (Payment Plan w/ deposit)
Over 250 days available, including 50 weekend days

SF Magic Mountain (Current Special)
2-Park SP - $85 (Payment Plan no deposit)
Good Chain wide, valid 365 days, includes parking (Payment Plan, no deposit)

SeaWorld San Diego
Fun Card SP - $90 (No Payment Plan)
Blockout days
SoCal AP - $100 (Payment Plan)
Valid every day of the year, free parking.

LEGOLAND California (Payment plan with small deposit)
SoCal AP - $159
Blockout days, good only at the main park
Standard AP - $199
Blockout days, all three parks, free parking


So if I live in the Southland and a COSTCO member (or know someone who is), I can get the Knott 2-park, SFMM Gold Pass and the Universal Neighbor pass for $315, including 2 parks with no blockout dates, that is less than the DLR AP with no weekends and many weeks of no visits.

So this is what Disneyland is competing against. If they stop the AP program, al lot of the slow days will be empty, or close to it. So Disney needs to revise the Blockout dates and fine tune them to take the current crazy days and add them to the calendar but it takes over a year to have them take effect.

 

[FerretAfros]

Am I the only one who is expecting a wholesale AP restructuring, similar in scope (though likely different strategy) to the pre-DCA changes, in about 18 months? Given that other resort infrastructure won't be ready for the anticipated Star Wars crowds, letting a lot of APs sunset before it opens could be a good alternate strategy to reduce crowding

I think they should consider TDR's approach, where regular tickets are relatively inexpensive, encouraging infrequent visitors to come more often, and APs are relatively expensive, to discourage large numbers of people from using it like their backyard. One-day tickets are around $75 (with fairly modest savings-per-day on multiday tickets), while the 2-park AP is about 12.5 times that cost. Compare that to DLR, where a 4-day park hopper is around the same price as the cheapest AP. Similar to Anaheim, there's a devoted local population that likes to visit frequently for special events, but also a huge number of people in the greater Tokyo area who visit once or twice a year. This allows the marginally-interested visitors to come more often and spread throughout the year, rather than focus their spending on a larger single trip during school holiday periods with peak crowds

Of course this would require DLR to reduce the price of regular tickets which is sure to ruffle some feathers in TDA, since they're hardly cheap even on "value" days, but it would allow the local fanbase to remain semi-frequent visitors even without APs. I'm willing to bet that in-park per-guest-spending is higher for guests without APs than with them, even if they visit multiple times per year. Because it would become a "special" occasion again, it would likely reducing traffic and parking problems, increase meals eaten in the parks, and (if TDR is any indication) boost merchandise by a healthy margin. Finding the right price points would be a challenge, but I think it's a good compromise for both sides.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Disney is not going to stop the payment plans anytime soon, if not ever. As people have already stated, Disney loves the income, not only from the passes, but from the food and merchandise as well.

 

[Darkbeer1]

One thing Theme Parks found in regards to AP/SP's and other things like food and drink add-ons. Folks enter the park for "Free" (in their mind) and therefore are more willing to spend money that day, as compared to someone who had to pay for tickets that day.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

The problem with any of these "solutions" is it will alienate someone, either the tourist, the APs, or both

People are already being alienated by the over-crowding as has been stated throughout this thread. In my opinion the current operating strategy is unsustainable.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I want to add that when Disney phased out cheaper pass options and raised prices, it was only theorized that it was in response to overcrowding. I believe that in reality, Disney did it to squeeze more money out of people. Considering how crowded DLR consistently is, it unlikely priced many people out. They will keep raising prices and people will continue to pay because it's still a great value. They need to either double or triple prices or change the policies.

 

[BrianLo]

The true solution is simple: Expand your parking, further build out DCA-stat, set your sights on gate #3.

If the parks are overstuffed they are missing the opportunity to expand their product, not to come up with crafty ways to turn people away.

They actually seemed to briefly get this plan until a pesky mayor upended it.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

A thought just occurred to me when thinking about discontinuing all APs...that would in effect kill off another contingent of Disneyland's population, namely the blogging community.

Here you have a group of people who bank on being able to have park access on a daily basis, and make at least part of their livelihood off their videos. They can funnel their YT ad revenue back into their passes and perpetuate the cycle.

 

[mickEblu]

Am I the only one who is expecting a wholesale AP restructuring, similar in scope (though likely different strategy) to the pre-DCA changes, in about 18 months? Given that other resort infrastructure won't be ready for the anticipated Star Wars crowds, letting a lot of APs sunset before it opens could be a good alternate strategy to reduce crowding

I think they should consider TDR's approach, where regular tickets are relatively inexpensive, encouraging infrequent visitors to come more often, and APs are relatively expensive, to discourage large numbers of people from using it like their backyard. One-day tickets are around $75 (with fairly modest savings-per-day on multiday tickets), while the 2-park AP is about 12.5 times that cost. Compare that to DLR, where a 4-day park hopper is around the same price as the cheapest AP. Similar to Anaheim, there's a devoted local population that likes to visit frequently for special events, but also a huge number of people in the greater Tokyo area who visit once or twice a year. This allows the marginally-interested visitors to come more often and spread throughout the year, rather than focus their spending on a larger single trip during school holiday periods with peak crowds

Of course this would require DLR to reduce the price of regular tickets which is sure to ruffle some feathers in TDA, since they're hardly cheap even on "value" days, but it would allow the local fanbase to remain semi-frequent visitors even without APs. I'm willing to bet that in-park per-guest-spending is higher for guests without APs than with them, even if they visit multiple times per year. Because it would become a "special" occasion again, it would likely reducing traffic and parking problems, increase meals eaten in the parks, and (if TDR is any indication) boost merchandise by a healthy margin. Finding the right price points would be a challenge, but I think it's a good compromise for both sides.

Agreed. I said the same thing on the other thread yesterday. It's something that doesn't get talked about often but is a huge reason why many people make that initial jump to AP.

 

[Disney Irish]

People are already being alienated by the over-crowding as has been stated throughout this thread. In my opinion the current operating strategy is unsustainable.

You are missing the point, Disney doesn't mind losing people to the overcrowding. In Disney's mind they have a hot product and have good PR, and anyone alienated because of it being overcrowded are replaced 10x over. Ever wonder why Apple doesn't produce enough iPhone's for the demand they know they'll have every year? I mean they can't have "manufacturing" issues every year (if you believe that one I have a bridge here in the Bay Area I'd like to sell you). Its because word of mouth over a hot product is worth its weight in gold.

Plus those same people alienated will still come back at another time, because again its a hot product.

But start putting in things like artificial stops to the number of tickets sold or number of people let in and you alienate in a negative way. Bad PR will happen because little Johnny and Sally can't go on their once in a lifetime trip. People will stop going and it won't be a hot product anymore.

This is Marketing 101 and Consumerism all wrapped up into one. Disney knows what they are doing.

 

[westie]

(if you believe that one I have a bridge here in the Bay Area I'd like to sell you). I.

Dumbarton, San Mateo, Bay, Golden Gate or Carquinez? And does that come with an AP discount? lol