Disneyland Report

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
I wonder if that is actually true. Does Disney really make more money with people waiting for fast pass or is that just a fan theory? I can see popcorn and soda sales going up slightly but shopping and dining? I doubt it especially with a local crowd of APs. I have a feeling that isn't true.

If you think about the upside on a extra $$$ from a limited amount of express passes per day vs potential incremental sales from literally everyone in the park who is not having to wait longer in standby lines, I don't see how this is hard to believe.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
If you think about the upside on a extra $$$ from a limited amount of express passes per day vs potential incremental sales from literally everyone in the park who is not having to wait longer in standby lines, I don't see how this is hard to believe.

Correlation is not causation. Just because some may go spend money while using FP does not mean Disney is making more money with FP. Systems like this do not live in a vacuum. So there is no proof that a guest using FP will be spending more money than a guest not using FP.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
Correlation is not causation. Just because some may go spend money while using FP does not mean Disney is making more money with FP. Systems like this do not live in a vacuum. So there is no proof that a guest using FP will be spending more money than a guest not using FP.

No proof other than the fact Disney has offered FP for nearly 20 years now of course. If the system were not profitable for the company it’d be long gone by now.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
No proof other than the fact Disney has offered FP for nearly 20 years now of course. If the system were not profitable for the company it’d be long gone by now.

Disney also offers free replacement balloons when a guest claims they pops theirs, no questions asked. Which comes at a cost, albeit a small one. Not everything is done for pure profit motives. If it was then Disney would charge for the balloon replacement.

And how can it be known today if the system is profitable when on a spreadsheet you can't have a breakdown of cost vs profit of FP? As how can you track that a guest using FP is actually spending more money vs those that don't use FP? Its not like all guests are tagged at DLR so Disney knows what they are doing. And since all guests don't have to scan their ticket when making purchases its not like they can tell that way. So if you can tell me how a cost/profit analysis can be done on FP to say that FP is profitable to Disney with no data I might believe begin to believe it.

But again correlation does not equal causation. Some things are done just for guest satisfaction. Because in the end, its happy guests that actually spend more money.

Additionally since DLR is overwhelming a locals park, FP is actually costing them money not making them money. Because locals don't use FP the way you are presenting it. This is why the program is likely to change to be MaxPass only, where they charge to use the system. This will dis-incentivize those locals that only come to the park and use FP to get on all their favorite attractions and then leave. And it will incentivize tourists and other guests that want to get the most out of their DLR experience. Also since it is via App only it will allow Disney the ability to track and tell if the system is really profitable or not.
 
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Ismael Flores

Well-Known Member
If you think about the upside on a extra $$$ from a limited amount of express passes per day vs potential incremental sales from literally everyone in the park who is not having to wait longer in standby lines, I don't see how this is hard to believe.

wasnt this brought up the kast time they decided to add fastpass to everything when Hariis and Pressler were in charge.
i remember that it backfired after having soent thousands on huge permanent drink stations were added to help with all the extra crowds that would be apending more because they wouldnt be in lines.

they found out the hard way that it didnt increase revenue much but instead crowded walkways and guests satisfaction took a dive.
they also realized that percentage of guests using the fastpass was minor and was mostly annual passholders compared to those on standby which were mostly tourist that were not familiar with fastpass system. because of that standby guest ended up waiting longer in lines and spending less time spending money

at the end they removed fastpass from some of the rides and many of the excess soda stands and mobile odv carts to help ease foot traffic.

all that money they spent on that Cynthia Harris idea to get people out of line to spend was a waste.
 

TROR

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Something I forgot to mention in my original trip report: Disneyland kettle corn sucks. Petco Park and Busch Stadium's were 10x better, you get 3x as much, and it was a dollar cheaper at those places! Very disappointing.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
Disney also offers free replacement balloons when a guest claims they pops theirs, no questions asked. Which comes at a cost, albeit a small one. Not everything is done for pure profit motives. If it was then Disney would charge for the balloon replacement.

And how can it be known today if the system is profitable when on a spreadsheet you can't have a breakdown of cost vs profit of FP? As how can you track that a guest using FP is actually spending more money vs those that don't use FP? Its not like all guests are tagged at DLR so Disney knows what they are doing. And since all guests don't have to scan their ticket when making purchases its not like they can tell that way. So if you can tell me how a cost/profit analysis can be done on FP to say that FP is profitable to Disney with no data I might believe begin to believe it.

But again correlation does not equal causation. Some things are done just for guest satisfaction. Because in the end, its happy guests that actually spend more money.

Additionally since DLR is overwhelming a locals park, FP is actually costing them money not making them money. Because locals don't use FP the way you are presenting it. This is why the program is likely to change to be MaxPass only, where they charge to use the system. This will dis-incentivize those locals that only come to the park and use FP to get on all their favorite attractions and then leave. And it will incentivize tourists and other guests that want to get the most out of their DLR experience. Also since it is via App only it will allow Disney the ability to track and tell if the system is really profitable or not.


I do agree with parts of what you're saying -- ultimately satisfaction does result in more $$$ of course. It's not all about freeing up time for dining and merch sales of course. I still think there is more to it than that though.

The cost of FP infrastructure just in the past few years alone -- new ticketing kiosks, app development, digital network revamp, etc. is not insignificant and with a company like Disney would require a tremendous amount of research and financial analysis to prove out its worth before they greenlit any of it (a bit more than offering new balloons to the few guests who know of the policy!). I've personally worked on projects for 1 billionth of what this stuff costs and have needed to prove out their value with documents the size of a bible -- I can only imagine what goes on within Disney before they finally agree to do these things.
 
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dweezil78

Well-Known Member
wasnt this brought up the kast time they decided to add fastpass to everything when Hariis and Pressler were in charge.
i remember that it backfired after having soent thousands on huge permanent drink stations were added to help with all the extra crowds that would be apending more because they wouldnt be in lines.

they found out the hard way that it didnt increase revenue much but instead crowded walkways and guests satisfaction took a dive.
they also realized that percentage of guests using the fastpass was minor and was mostly annual passholders compared to those on standby which were mostly tourist that were not familiar with fastpass system. because of that standby guest ended up waiting longer in lines and spending less time spending money

at the end they removed fastpass from some of the rides and many of the excess soda stands and mobile odv carts to help ease foot traffic.

all that money they spent on that Cynthia Harris idea to get people out of line to spend was a waste.

Sure, like any businesses, overexpansion is always a real risk and happens to even the largest corporations when leadership is perhaps a bit too ambitious and not realistic. Even brands like Starbucks have dealt with such issues, having to close hundreds of stores because the market demand was not there.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
I do agree with parts of what you're saying -- ultimately satisfaction does result in more $$$ of course. It's not all about freeing up time for dining and merch sales of course. I still think there is more to it than that though.

The cost of FP infrastructure just in the past few years alone -- new ticketing kiosks, app development, digital network revamp, etc. is not insignificant and with a company like Disney would require a tremendous amount of research and financial analysis to prove out its worth before they greenlit any of it. I've personally worked on projects for 1 billionth of what this stuff costs and have needed to prove out their value with documents the size of a bible -- I can only imagine what goes on within Disney before they finally agree to do these things.

The thing you are forgetting is that all the R&D for MaxPass was done already in WDW with FP+ and MagicBands. MaxPass is basically the same system modified for DLR without the MagicBands and the reservation system.

Also it not hard to see why Disney is moving to digital media for ticketing, almost every entertainment venue is. For example the NFL has been switching to use all digital media, no more paper tickets, not even the ability to print out tickets.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
The thing you are forgetting is that all the R&D for MaxPass was done already in WDW with FP+ and MagicBands. MaxPass is basically the same system modified for DLR without the MagicBands and the reservation system.

Also it not hard to see why Disney is moving to digital media for ticketing, almost every entertainment venue is. For example the NFL has been switching to use all digital media, no more paper tickets, not even the ability to print out tickets.

Totally understand that -- but even though on paper it seems like apples to apples w/ WDW, it most likely is not knowing how these things often work -- and even if it was exactly the same, there are still a good deal of costs associated with conversion, network upgrades, hardware, training etc. And again, that's after justifying that somehow there's enough of an ROI to justify it all happening in the first place -- which is what we're ultimately talking about here with going back to the initial point on whether a limited amount of higher cost FPs vs free/moderately priced FPs for everyone generate more $$$ for Disney. I still think it's easily the latter for a multitude of reasons including both guest satisfaction but also increased spending and better crowd distribution throughout the park which also ultimately ties back to those other things.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
Something I forgot to mention in my original trip report: Disneyland kettle corn sucks. Petco Park and Busch Stadium's were 10x better, you get 3x as much, and it was a dollar cheaper at those places! Very disappointing.

Where does Disneyland even sell kettle corn? I like their caramel corn - I get it at the kiosk at the end of Buena Vista St every now and again.
 

TROR

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Where does Disneyland even sell kettle corn? I like their caramel corn - I get it at the kiosk at the end of Buena Vista St every now and again.
I got mine at Pooh's Corner. I also saw it in Pioneer Mercantile, I believe, and I believe it's also sold in Refreshment Corner . I'm sure there are more places but point is it's usually inside and not at the carts.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Totally understand that -- but even though on paper it seems like apples to apples w/ WDW, it most likely is not knowing how these things often work -- and even if it was exactly the same, there are still a good deal of costs associated with conversion, network upgrades, hardware, training etc. And again, that's after justifying that somehow there's enough of an ROI to justify it all happening in the first place -- which is what we're ultimately talking about here with going back to the initial point on whether a limited amount of higher cost FPs vs free/moderately priced FPs for everyone generate more $$$ for Disney. I still think it's easily the latter for a multitude of reasons including both guest satisfaction but also increased spending and better crowd distribution throughout the park which also ultimately ties back to those other things.

But some of these systems can't be sold on paper because they haven't been done before. Like when FP was first introduced, a system like that had never existed before. So how can you do a cost analysis on a system like that. Also like I said before you can't do a cost analysis on a system when there is no data to use. Because there is no way to track guest movements using a paper system.

Also I never bought into the high cost FP, I think MaxPass will likely stay in the sub $100 region. And I think it will start being sold in-conjunction with tickets, not as a separate item. Sort of like how Signature APs can get it all year for x amount. This will benefit day/multiday tickets, ie tourists.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
So how can you do a cost analysis on a system like that. Also like I said before you can't do a cost analysis on a system when there is no data to use. Because there is no way to track guest movements using a paper system.

I'm far from a financial analyst (thank god!), but there are plenty of ways to do these things. Disney tests everything whether it's obvious or not. There are all sorts of crazy methods to do financial modeling and forecasting. You can bet Disney has acquired some pretty hardcore talent to run #s things before they pull the trigger on projects that have potential to completely disrupt the business.

And FWIW, here's a fun piece of archived history about when they were first testing FP back in '99 - https://web.archive.org/web/19990508031726/https://www.ocregister.com/business/disny031w.shtml
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
I got mine at Pooh's Corner. I also saw it in Pioneer Mercantile, I believe, and I believe it's also sold in Refreshment Corner . I'm sure there are more places but point is it's usually inside and not at the carts.

Oh... you mean the pre-bagged stuff? Stay away from that garbage! Only buy fresh at the parks, at least when involving popcorn.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
I'm far from a financial analyst (thank god!), but there are plenty of ways to do these things. Disney tests everything whether it's obvious or not. There are all sorts of crazy methods to do financial modeling and forecasting. You can bet Disney has acquired some pretty hardcore talent to run #s things before they pull the trigger on projects that have potential to completely disrupt the business.

And FWIW, here's a fun piece of archived history about when they were first testing FP back in '99 - https://web.archive.org/web/19990508031726/https://www.ocregister.com/business/disny031w.shtml

If you are doing something that hasn't done before with consumers then you have to use fuzzy math to do a cost analysis. Or they can just guess and hope for the best. For example, if merchandise sales goes up 1-3% when the system is introduced then we can say its working. If it goes up 3-10% we can say its a success.

And for all we know Disney is putting trackers in its merch and we don't know it.

Point is I think you are putting too much emphasis on cost analysis. Yes we all know that Disney is a data driven company. I actually know this for a fact, as I work for the one of companies they use for their modeling software. I've have actually worked with Disneyland Paris (we still call their account EuroDisney) when they had an issue getting specific data. However there are some projects that have no direct ROI that are there for pure guest satisfaction and used just for marketing.
 

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