Politics Disneyland Closure: Another six months?

[ThreadMaster5]

Do you think they are being paid right now?

They definitely aren't

 

[ThreadMaster5]

Fair enough. There are some folks that want the maximum amount of assurance of safety before even approaching any amusement venue (example - Disney properties) and that is OK. That said, the rest that want to go should not be prevented from living and not just existing. There is no 100% prevention of anything. To restrict and impose on people limits that are fast becoming untenable is not beneficial. In short if you don't want to go DON'T do not get in the way of those that DO.

Nobody said anything about "maximizing" lol, if everyone actually just wore a mask and didn't go outside when they were sick Disneyland would probably be open already but alas. The fact of the matter is, most people that go will for the most part abide by the rules, but what about the 20% that don't? Kick em out? Sure you can but what about before they get caught? They've already ridden pirates, Peter Pan, haunted mansion, and space mountain. They kept it on for 2 out of the 4 rides, now if they are sick and contagious there would be a problem no? Cause the masks don't protect you they protect others, so therein lies the problem. If I take a drive around my town I don't see how anyone is being prevented from living, I'm not sure where you live but everything other than theme parks is pretty much open.

 

[el_super]

To sort of expand on the idea of "just fire all the CMs and open up," and actually start some discussion, I thought I would offer up some speculation on what terms are being discussed in those "dynamic" conversations and what conditions might be attached to the reopening guidelines. The more I think about some of the items, the more I start to wonder if Disney themselves are actually the ones holding up the reopening, hoping for more favorable "guidance."

Here's what I think may be on the table:

1. Masks Required: This seems like a given considered the widespread acceptance of mandatory masks and the success they have had in Florida and Downtown Disney.
   
   
2. Reduced Capacity: Another given, considering the environment. Considering the chatter being put out recently, it's possible that the capacity number the state wants is lower than what Disney believes they need to be profitable.
   
   
3. Reduced Hours and/or days of Operation: Tied in to the reduced capacity, I could see that the state would want to limit the number of days or hours that the parks are open in order to discourage out of state travel. Even if Orange County makes it to the yellow tier in keeping cases down, that can all be undone by having a large influx of visitors from Nevada, Arizona or even LA county re-introduce the virus to Orange County.
   
   
4. Outdoor Operations Only: Originally posted on the CA COVID guidelines site was a mention that theme parks could reopen in the Yellow Tier with reduced capacity and outdoor operations only. This would benefit most theme parks in CA... but not Disneyland. Disneyland is somewhat uniquely dependent on their dark rides and indoor attractions, where most parks rely on their big coasters to draw crowds. A Disneyland where Pirates, Indy and Mansion have to remain closed would not be one worth visiting. I could see Disney being vehemently against this idea, as it would give a head start to their competition, and promote the idea that their indoor attractions are inherently less safe.
   
   
5. Required On-Site testing for CMs: This was a major point for the union, and something Disney seemed absolutely insistent on fighting against. The unions insisted that providing testing was essential to understand if anyone coming to work was bringing the virus with them. Disney (maybe rightfully?) doesn't believe it's their responsibility.
   
   
6. AB 365: This is a new area that I think poses the most risk for Disney. Newsom signed a new law that expands the role of DOSH in keeping workers safe from COVID. The long and short of it: Disney would be required to notify their CMs (and by extension making it public) when there is an outbreak of COVID at the park. Tied into #5 above, this would forced the responsibility of keeping the workplace safe back to Disney and could have HUGE PR implications if Disney is forced to admit that CMs are contracting the virus on property. Disney has historically opposed any form of government oversight and this one would be very invasive and public.
   
   The only real question here would be whether any part of this was part of those dynamic conversations prior to the signing of this law, and whether it now being the law of the land would eliminate any objections Disney had.
7. Shutdown conditions: The most recent guidance being released by the state was being done with the hope that the more restrictive qualifications for changing tiers would ensure that businesses being reopened could stay open without having to bounce from phase to phase or having to implement additional "dimmer switches." This would be exceptionally important to Disney, since, once they recall their 20,000+ CMs back from Furlough, they can't re-furlough them again. If the park is forced to shutdown again, the cost to Disney would be astronomical, and they would most likely be forced to either continue to pay CMs, or lay them off outright. I could imagine that Disney would have asked that the reopening guidelines include some guarantee that the parks would not be asked to close again, but I very much doubt the state would agree to that.

Anyway just some food for thought. Disney has actually already implemented many different CM friendly initiatives, like allowing CMs to take as much time off as they need and not penalizing any CMs that call out sick.

 

[cmwade77]

I was making a point that things spread at Disneyland. Now will it be safer at Disneyland with the safety measures? Sure in theory it should be, but they can’t even keep people from smoking in the parks so I have my doubts

We have seen them strictly enforcing the rules at Downtown Disney and at Disney World, will it ever be 100% perfect? No, but it will be as safe as they can, remember life has risks, if you aren't willing to accept that, by all means stay home, but don't expect others to do the same anymore.

 

[flutas]

We have seen them strictly enforcing the rules at Downtown Disney and at Disney World, will it ever be 100% perfect? No, but it will be as safe as they can, remember life has risks, if you aren't willing to accept that, by all means stay home, but don't expect others to do the same anymore.

...

But that requires actual distancing, and actual mask enforcement. Two things that I can say have not been happening at DTD. The amount of people cramped into narrow walkways around Uva without CMs saying anything is example 1 for distancing. The fact people always are sitting on the "DONT SIT HERE" stickers next to other groups is example 2 for distancing. The amount of people walking around with their nose sticking out is example 1 for masks. The fact that the other day I saw a person walking through wearing no mask (only a face shield) and multiple CMs walked by without saying anything is example 2-200 on masks and why I believe DLR isn't ready to open.

 

[cmwade77]

I am not an epidemiologist (I hadn't even heard that word before until eight months ago), I am not a doctor, I am not a bureaucrat. But I am an official older person who has had all sorts of vaccines and their boosters in recent years (Shingles, TDaP, Pneumovax 13, Pneumovax 23, etc.), so I feel fairly confident in reminding everyone that any vaccine released for public consumption in this country has at minimum a 5 year lifespan before you need your next booster.

That said, I won't be getting a Covid vaccine when they are released. I'll let all the people who are scared for one reason or another get it first, so there's plenty of supply and plenty of appointments at Walgreens available. Sometime later in 2021 when all the frenzy is over, I'll go down and get a Covid shot, even though the nurses no longer wear hats and white hosiery which I think is an absolute crime and makes me feel less healthy and less cared for!

Umm, the Flu shot is considered a vaccine and does not last 5 years, it is yearly, not sure where you get a minimum of 5 years from.

But that requires actual distancing, and actual mask enforcement. Two things that I can say have not been happening at DTD. The amount of people cramped into narrow walkways around Uva without CMs saying anything is example 1 for distancing. The fact people always are sitting on the "DONT SIT HERE" stickers next to other groups is example 2 for distancing. The amount of people walking around with their nose sticking out is example 1 for masks. The fact that the other day I saw a person walking through wearing no mask (only a face shield) and multiple CMs walked by without saying anything is example 2-200 on masks and why I believe DLR isn't ready to open.

Granted I think most of the issue stems from Disney not giving CMs enough power to actually enforce the rules.

Funny, I have had the exact opposite experience in Disney enforcing the rules at Downtown Disney almost too aggressively.

Ah yes, people should have no access to food and other necessities because someone wants to go to Disneyland.

No one ever said that, there are plenty of ways these days to access all necessities without ever going further than your front porch and most can even be done with zero contact with other people, so if you are that scared, by all means hide in your house, but the rest of us have reached the point of wanting to live. Consider this for a moment, the death rate for COVID in California is 1.5 per 100,000 people and this is over the entire course of the pandemic, not sure how to divide that out to per day like we are doing for all of the other numbers, the death rate for all other causes is around 6.5 per 100,000, so really this is insignificant and if you remove those with underlying conditions from the number, the rate is almost nonexistent per 100,000. Honestly, I would take those odds any day of the week, even 7 cases per 100,000 people per day is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Is it sad people die from this? Yes, but people die from all sorts of things, life has risks, the question becomes what risks are we willing to take?

Oh hey, look.

More misinformation being presented as fact.

Masks are more effective if both are wearing them. You're just being a selfish ******* by not.

Also point to my post where I said we need more rules? I said we need those rules we have enforced. But selective reading seems to be a common trend here.

Answer this then, if masks are so effective, how did this virus spread so massively in Asian countries where proper mask wearing was near 90% of the population before this came around? Seriously, please explain how wearing masks work here but not there.

 

[el_super]

Yeah, having employees sit at home and be payed is sustainable on the long term.

Man, we've been doing reality so wrong... Everyone just needs to stay at home and get payed. Why didn't we think of that before!

Seems like a fair compromise. If the alternative argument is true "that people who need to go out should be allowed to do so" why wouldn't we say that people who need to stay home should be supported in doing so as well? If supporting some form of protection for workers who didn't feel safe returning to Disneyland would allow for Disneyland to reopen tomorrow, would you support it?

 

[el_super]

Answer this then, if masks are so effective, how did this virus spread so massively in Asian countries where proper mask wearing was near 90% of the population before this came around? Seriously, please explain how wearing masks work here but not there.

Can you cite some actual sources for the "massive spread in Asia" and the percentage of mask wearers for those locations?

 

[cmwade77]

What about the people who work at Disneyland? If they don't want to catch it, can they just opt out of going to work? Maybe if there was an arrangement where they can just stay home and get paid to wait it out, it would make a more convincing case for allowing them to reopen.

I have covered this multiple times, but here is how it works for the cast members (many of whom really want to get back to work now), they will be given options in the following order:

1. They will be called in order of seniority per department from highest to lowest, full time cast members first, then part time, they will be offered two choices:
   • Come back to work
   • Remain on furlough and stay on unemployment or disability as applicable with any additional amounts for COVID related unemployment
2. If not enough cast members are willing to come back, they will then be called from lowest to highest seniority and given the following options:
   • Come back to work
   • Demonstrate they have a need to not come back, such as being in a high risk group, living with someone who is, etc., in which case they can remain out
3. If there still aren't enough cast members, then they will tell everyone to come back or they will need something like FMLA, again lowest to highest seniority

To sort of expand on the idea of "just fire all the CMs and open up," and actually start some discussion, I thought I would offer up some speculation on what terms are being discussed in those "dynamic" conversations and what conditions might be attached to the reopening guidelines. The more I think about some of the items, the more I start to wonder if Disney themselves are actually the ones holding up the reopening, hoping for more favorable "guidance."

Here's what I think may be on the table:

1. Masks Required: This seems like a given considered the widespread acceptance of mandatory masks and the success they have had in Florida and Downtown Disney.
   
   
2. Reduced Capacity: Another given, considering the environment. Considering the chatter being put out recently, it's possible that the capacity number the state wants is lower than what Disney believes they need to be profitable.
   
   
3. Reduced Hours and/or days of Operation: Tied in to the reduced capacity, I could see that the state would want to limit the number of days or hours that the parks are open in order to discourage out of state travel. Even if Orange County makes it to the yellow tier in keeping cases down, that can all be undone by having a large influx of visitors from Nevada, Arizona or even LA county re-introduce the virus to Orange County.
   
   
4. Outdoor Operations Only: Originally posted on the CA COVID guidelines site was a mention that theme parks could reopen in the Yellow Tier with reduced capacity and outdoor operations only. This would benefit most theme parks in CA... but not Disneyland. Disneyland is somewhat uniquely dependent on their dark rides and indoor attractions, where most parks rely on their big coasters to draw crowds. A Disneyland where Pirates, Indy and Mansion have to remain closed would not be one worth visiting. I could see Disney being vehemently against this idea, as it would give a head start to their competition, and promote the idea that their indoor attractions are inherently less safe.
   
   
5. Required On-Site testing for CMs: This was a major point for the union, and something Disney seemed absolutely insistent on fighting against. The unions insisted that providing testing was essential to understand if anyone coming to work was bringing the virus with them. Disney (maybe rightfully?) doesn't believe it's their responsibility.
   
   
6. AB 365: This is a new area that I think poses the most risk for Disney. Newsom signed a new law that expands the role of DOSH in keeping workers safe from COVID. The long and short of it: Disney would be required to notify their CMs (and by extension making it public) when there is an outbreak of COVID at the park. Tied into #5 above, this would forced the responsibility of keeping the workplace safe back to Disney and could have HUGE PR implications if Disney is forced to admit that CMs are contracting the virus on property. Disney has historically opposed any form of government oversight and this one would be very invasive and public.
   
   The only real question here would be whether any part of this was part of those dynamic conversations prior to the signing of this law, and whether it now being the law of the land would eliminate any objections Disney had.
7. Shutdown conditions: The most recent guidance being released by the state was being done with the hope that the more restrictive qualifications for changing tiers would ensure that businesses being reopened could stay open without having to bounce from phase to phase or having to implement additional "dimmer switches." This would be exceptionally important to Disney, since, once they recall their 20,000+ CMs back from Furlough, they can't re-furlough them again. If the park is forced to shutdown again, the cost to Disney would be astronomical, and they would most likely be forced to either continue to pay CMs, or lay them off outright. I could imagine that Disney would have asked that the reopening guidelines include some guarantee that the parks would not be asked to close again, but I very much doubt the state would agree to that.

Anyway just some food for thought. Disney has actually already implemented many different CM friendly initiatives, like allowing CMs to take as much time off as they need and not penalizing any CMs that call out sick.
[/QUOTE]

I will respond to each of your points in order:

1. Masks will definitely be required, as will temperature checks, that is a given.
2. Reduced capacity is also a given.
3. Reduced hours are likely, but not because of negotiations with the state, more due to staffing and financial needs.
4. Outdoor operations only is likely off the table for Disneyland, DCA and a lot of other parks would be ok, but Disneyland would struggle.
5. Disney doesn't need to provide onsite testing anymore, as there is testing at the Anaheim Convention center and it is free for all OC Residents, just open it up to all CMs.
6. This law will be invalidated, as it directly conflicts with HIPAA, which is a federal law and will override this. So, Disney could simply agree now and support the inevitable lawsuits that sue over this.
7. Considering the parks voluntarily shut down at the beginning of this, I think asking the state to find ways to allow them to remain open no matter what would be reasonable.

 

[cmwade77]

...

I have seen them very strictly enforcing the rules at Downtown Disney, not sure when you have gone and seen the opposite, but I never have.

 

[lazyboy97o]

In California, someone who is infected will actually infect less than one other person.

Nothing like facts! California somehow magically reduces R0 to less than 1. Guess that rise in cases was just an error.

 

[cmwade77]

Nothing like facts! California somehow magically reduces R0 to less than 1. Guess that rise in cases was just an error.

It is the number they are announcing, I can only go with official information.

 

[cmwade77]

im on mobile but just wanted to call this one out

HIPAA has nothing to do with your employer. As I’ve said in response to you multiple times that you’ve ignored. Again your alternative facts.

Actually, yes HIPAA does have to do with it, they can't violate your right to keep your medical data private and you continuously ignore that. This is a fact, not an alternative fact. Pretty much the only time they can reveal it is if it is medically necessary, say you are allergic to peanuts and have an issue, they call for an ambulance, they can reveal to the the paramedics what is needed to properly treat you.

Having to know the ins and outs of this for various reasons, I can assure you it does apply and you are the one with alternative facts in this case.

 

[Travel Junkie]

Answer this then, if masks are so effective, how did this virus spread so massively in Asian countries where proper mask wearing was near 90% of the population before this came around? Seriously, please explain how wearing masks work here but not there.

Vietnam borders China and has a population of 100 million. How many deaths have they had to date of the virus. 0. Why? Strict protocols and universal mask wearing once the virus was detected.

I was in Asia during January and February. Mask wearing was no where near 50% let alone 100% in many of those countries. Once they began enforcing mask wearing, infection rates plummeted. I would rather be in Asia than the US right now due to how they handled things.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It is the number they are announcing, I can only go with official information.

It's not a constant, it is a function of person-to-person interactions.

 

[flutas]

Actually, yes HIPAA does have to do with it, they can't violate your right to keep your medical data private and you continuously ignore that. This is a fact, not an alternative fact. Pretty much the only time they can reveal it is if it is medically necessary, say you are allergic to peanuts and have an issue, they call for an ambulance, they can reveal to the the paramedics what is needed to properly treat you.

Having to know the ins and outs of this for various reasons, I can assure you it does apply and you are the one with alternative facts in this case.

Literally. No. It. Does. Not.

I hope you don't need to know the ins and out of it, because clearly you don't.

Who Does HIPAA Cover?
HIPAA is a federal law that introduced standards in healthcare relating to patient privacy and the protection of medical data. HIPAA covers healthcare providers, health plans, healthcare clearinghouses, and business associates of HIPAA-covered entities. HIPAA applies to most entities that fall into the above categories, except those that do not conduct transactions electronically.

Healthcare providers include hospitals, clinics, physicians, nursing homes, pharmacies, chiropractors, dentists, and psychologists. Health plans include health insurers, company health plans, HMOs, and government programs that pay for healthcare such as Medicaid and Medicare. Healthcare clearinghouses are organizations that transform nonstandard health data into a standard format. A business associate is an individual or entity that performs functions for a HIPAA covered entity that requires the use or disclosure of protected health information.

Is Disney a healthcare provider? No
Is Disney a health plan? No
Is Disney a healthcare clearing house? No
Is Disney a business associate of one of the above? No

Therefore, HIPAA has literally nothing to do with Disney.

What Does HIPAA Cover?
The HIPAA Privacy Rule covers all individually identifiable health information that is created, stored, maintained, or transmitted by a HIPAA covered entity or business associate of a HIPAA covered entity. The HIPAA Privacy Rule applies to all forms of PHI, including paper records, films, and electronic health information, even spoken information.

This information is classed as protected health information when it contains identifiers that would allow a patient or health plan member to be identified. HIPAA does not include information in employment records, even if that information is included in the HIPAA definition of individually identifiable health information or protected health information.

What Does HIPAA Cover?

It has been 22 years since the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) was Introduced, but there is still some confusion about HIPAA. What does HIPAA cover? Who does HIPAA Apply to? What are the benefits for patients? These and more questions answered.

www.hipaajournal.com

 

[el_super]

So, in other words, there is a plan to help all cast members be as safe and comfortable as possible, while still being able to reopen the parks with a well thought out and crafted strategy.

Not really. That's the intended process for recalling CMs, but a process for keeping them safe and comfortable? Not at all. In some cases Disney has stated that CMs have 30 minutes to decide if they should return to work and accept the risk of virus and death, or stay home and risk unemployment. Disney should be doing more to encourage CMs that is is safe to return, including implementing more testing on site, a commitment to report outbreaks and close locations with confirmed cases.

I think its fair to suggest that CMs who stay on furlough, should not be paid by Disney for work they are not doing, but part of the math for accepting a return to work, is also understanding what options are available should they either contract the virus directly, or their location has to close due to an outbreak. If Cast Members have to be sent home because Pirates has to be shut down for a week, shouldn't they be paid for the time that they are willing to, but unable to work?

I also think it would go a long way if Disney were able to offer some form of health screening/consult to CMs before they decide to risk death over returning to work. That way they can screen out any high risk individuals, or at the very least give some Cast Members an idea of their own personal risk before accepting a request to return.

 

[el_super]

Actually, yes HIPAA does have to do with it, they can't violate your right to keep your medical data private and you continuously ignore that. This is a fact, not an alternative fact.

If a CM loses an arm while working at the Tiki Room, Disney can't claim it would be a HIPAA violation to report it to DOSH.

 

[GimpYancIent]

Literally. No. It. Does. Not.

I hope you don't need to know the ins and out of it, because clearly you don't.



Is Disney a healthcare provider? No
Is Disney a health plan? No
Is Disney a healthcare clearing house? No
Is Disney a business associate of one of the above? No

Therefore, HIPAA has literally nothing to do with Disney.

What Does HIPAA Cover?

It has been 22 years since the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) was Introduced, but there is still some confusion about HIPAA. What does HIPAA cover? Who does HIPAA Apply to? What are the benefits for patients? These and more questions answered.

www.hipaajournal.com

Now that all of this clarification of clarifications has occurred, as soon as the smoke clears, I am quite sure the Disney legal department will be ready and fully capable of handling any misguided frivolous legal actions that could occur. Protocol's have been established, procedures developed, CM's briefed and trained, PLUS, the general public is aware and knowledgeable. Let's get the parks up and running, yes at reduced capacity, the sooner the better.

 

[flutas]

If a CM loses an arm while working at the Tiki Room, Disney can't claim it would be a HIPAA violation to report it to DOSH.

Conveniently the other side is HIPAA only covers unique identification of patients.

So even if HIPAA covered Disney, which it does not, they could still be required to disclose outbreaks, locations of workers, etc and not have that be protected under HIPAA.

In fact, I've quoted this at him before and he ignored it.

What should I do if an employee is suspected or confirmed to have COVID-19?

(...)

In addition to cleaning and disinfecting, employers should determine which employees may have been exposed to the virus and need to take additional precautions:

• If an employee is confirmed to have COVID-19, employers should inform fellow employees of their possible exposure to COVID-19 in the workplace but maintain confidentiality as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/general-business-faq.html