Disney YOU HAD BETTER START LISTENING...

[WDW1974]

I'm referring to both WDI and WDW management. In the case of WDI management for a Tokyo project, OLC is more involved and will not accept mediocre work.

I worry that is changing too, though.

The last two attractions announced for TDS and TDL are Turtle Talk and PhilharMagic.

Of course, the Monsters E-Ticket softens the blow of those a bit!

To a lesser extent this also happens with Anaheim. Especially since the Burbank group is so close. When it comes to WDW, their management is so inept and careless (in general) that they will accept a lesser product if it means coming in under budget. Not all WDW management is like this but the ones that really could make a difference are. They are too busy with their lunches and meetings to be bothered with little things like poorly executed show and ride product.

I am not sure they know what good show is. I wonder if they know that Africa isn't a country?

 

[yankspy]

That is the key point, I think.

Disney, and WDW, are very inconsistent.

It's almost like staying in a hotel on the sixth floor and everything is pefect and brand new and amazing, while the room three floors above you is a dump (which can happen at WDW and has too!)

I don't believe everything Disney is pushing is mediocre. In any division. And certainly not even parks and resorts. ...



And that's fine too. If I were bringing a child for the first time, I would likely be focusing on that.

BUT ... if I see chipped paint (or holes in the walls like in the new TSMM or the old Buzz Lighyear) or dirty bathrooms, it bothers me. Doesn't ruin the trip, but it bothers me.

I can still recall my amazement as a child when I saw my first WDW bathroom (I admit that sentence sounds weird but ...) because it was so large, so bright and so spotless. I still recall my father proudly saying 'this place is so clean you could eat off the sidewalks.'

That's the stuff Disney conditioned me to accept and it isn't OK to me to see them lower their standards even if it doesn't bother the fanboys.



Some of the attractions may have been dry ... and some were certainly stale in their final years ... but FW was so much more impressive in 1988 than it is 2008.



Individually, I enjoy aspects of all of them. But I truly love EPCOT (the park that made me a Disney parks fan for life) and DAK (shows that WDI still can do the job ... or some people there can.)

The MK would rank next, although unlike every other MK-style park I've been in (all but TDL), I get bored ... usually after 3-4 hours. A friend's wife calls in 'a mass market characture of DL' and I can't disagree. Too many rundown and empty areas. Too many things taken away and not replaced. A total WalMarting of the place. So many of the little Disney Details whittled away over the years.

The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios would come in dead last. It's actually my least favorite Disney park in the world. It has two things that I visit for -- the ToT and the Brown Derby (although I do enjoy the new TSMM I don't feel it's a must do). That's really it. The BAH plopped down in the middle of Hollywood Blvd. so sums up the WalMarting and marginalizing of the place. As an APer who lives a few hours away, I can (and just did) go nine months without setting foot inside and not feel like I am missing anything. That park has been absolutely ruined ... totally muddled throw anything theming.



'74 was a very good year! I'll check the pics out, thanks!

1. It bothers me as well. I recall seeing a dirty bathroom in the Poly right by Ohana and I remember feeling the same way.

2. Future World was indeed a much more impressive area in 88. You will find that many would agree with you and I on that one.

3. I think the reason that MK is still such a special place for me is nostalgia. The merchandise upsets me quite a bit because I can remmember a time when I would be excited about going into "The House of Magic" or the old "Castle store" (Can't remember the name). Attractions such as "Stitch" annoy me but I guess that is subjective.

4. I have to agree with DHS. I did a solo trip this past March and I actually skipped DHS.

 

[EpcotServo]

Does anyone thing MILF or Turtle Talk or SGE ... or even Mission Space or Soarin will still exist in 40 years?

I guarantee you that if you went back in time 40 years and asked the Imagineers working there the question of if their work would still be held up in high regards in the year 2008, they'd say "probably not".

I think it's important to not judge the people working their hearts out for Disney on the amazing talents that no one can live up to. Yale Gracey is Yale Gracey. Calude Coats is Claude Coats. Marc Davis is Marc Davis. If everyone was like that working at WDI right now, it'd certainly dimenish the talent of these extraordinary people.

The great people at WDI come in every day like the thousands of Cast Members at WDW and try their best to live up to the ideals of Walt Disney, and while I think it's perfectly fair to judge their work I think it's another thing altogether to insult their effort and intergrity.

 

[WDW1974]

I guarantee you that if you went back in time 40 years and asked the Imagineers working there the question of if their work would still be held up in high regards in the year 2008, they'd say "probably not".

I think it's important to not judge the people working their hearts out for Disney on the amazing talents that no one can live up to. Yale Gracey is Yale Gracey. Calude Coats is Claude Coats. Marc Davis is Marc Davis. If everyone was like that working at WDI right now, it'd certainly dimenish the talent of these extraordinary people.

Sorry, but that's a cop out. The men you mentioned were great Imagineers, artists and storytellers.

So your answer is that there aren't any great talents today?

I don't buy it. Hell, I know enough folks at WDI (or who have come and been pushed out or got fed up and left) to know that isn't the case at all.

And having great talents today building great parks and attractions would in no way diminsh the great work of those that Imagineered before.

Picasso is dead so no one today can paint. Mozart is gone so no one can create music. Lincoln is dead so no one can lead. Ford is dead so no one can create. Walt is dead so no one can make magic.

Bad ... bad attempt at an argument.

The great people at WDI come in every day like the thousands of Cast Members at WDW and try their best to live up to the ideals of Walt Disney, and while I think it's perfectly fair to judge their work I think it's another thing altogether to insult their effort and intergrity.

I think it is more than fair to judge people based upon their work product and level of control.

And I don't recall anyone insulting anyone ...

 

[EpcotServo]

Sorry, but that's a cop out. The men you mentioned were great Imagineers, artists and storytellers.

So your answer is that there aren't any great talents today?

I don't buy it. Hell, I know enough folks at WDI (or who have come and been pushed out or got fed up and left) to know that isn't the case at all.

And having great talents today building great parks and attractions would in no way diminsh the great work of those that Imagineered before.

Picasso is dead so no one today can paint. Mozart is gone so no one can create music. Lincoln is dead so no one can lead. Ford is dead so no one can create. Walt is dead so no one can make magic.

Bad ... bad attempt at an argument.

It wasn't an attempt at an argument, more of just a general statement towards the direction of the conversation. You'd know it's an attempt at an argument had it been much earlier in the day and it also would've included things like "What in Cthulhu's name are you talking about", "Yeah. SURE.", and "Your mother".

:lol:

And you know that's not the intent. Of course their can be great painters/music makers/Lincolns. I meant it's not fair to skewer and roast them in the fires of heck because the painting isn't as good as Picasso. Because the song isn't as good as Mozart. Because the leadership isn't as wise as Lincoln.

Is it fair to judge them by the standards of the past? Yes, of course. It is fair to judge them SOLELY by the standards of the past? Not in my eyes. Is Midway Mania as good as Haunted Mansion? Hardly a fair question. I judge from the qualities of the past. Good for families? Yep. Immersive environment? Check. Innovative Ride System? Certainly. Now I know you'd probably disagree with that, and I can't stop you. I just think that maybe it's ok to step back, just once and while, and ask yourself "Is it really that bad?"

I think it is more than fair to judge people based upon their work product and level of control.

And I don't recall anyone insulting anyone ...

Maybe when it's a movie or a book, but I think a physical entertainment amusement complex worked on by THOUSANDS of people and creatively controlled by a select hundred is a tad different.

I DIGRESS. In reality I'm just sleepy and hate when people rag on WDI when I think everything that they've done since Everest has been stellar, and the future (American Idol aside) looks even brighter.

Call me a "Chaotic Optimist".
:lol:

Night.
:wave:

 

[andy1278]

The parks aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

My girlfriend and I have been THREE TIMES this year alone. We got lost trying to find Sea World (we're stupid), but ended up just driving on to Disney and doing the Pirate & Princess Party. Then a week at all the parks. Then Not So Scary.

People like us alone will keep the park going. We're more than happy to spend our money at all four parks, and not much needs to be changed to keep us going back and back.

And I don't mind the Hannah Montanas and the Tinkerbells taking over. Little kids watch the movies and get their parents to buy the merchandise. They come to the parks to do the makeover and meet the fairies. Disney earns money and keeps the park I love beautiful. I have NO complaints. When they rename it Jonas Brothers World, we'll talk, but until then, it doesn't bother me at all. There is still more Mickey at the park than anything else, and that's how it started and will keep being.

 

[whylightbulb]

Why light bulb:
You don't by any chance work for the Sally corporation and worked on Nights in White Satin - The Trip at Hard Rock Park, did you? Unfortunately, they went bankrupt so people may never see that ride but it is all screens and sounds like what you are working on.

I wonder how much that ride cost? Since it is in an existing building maybe it was done for 4 million? By the way, I have had people tell me it is only about 1/4 as good as the original journey to imagination, but it's still much better than what Disney has in that building now.

I don't work for Sally. I own a company. We mostly do business outside the US, although we did some work for Universal recently and we have a few irons in the fire domestically.

I have ridden the dark ride at Hard Rock. From what I know about it, they did a spectacular job with the budget they had to work with (approximately $6 million from what I've heard). I do know that Sally hired another company to do most of the work. Sally is a decent company and certainly one of the top firms specializing in Dark Rides along with my company. I wish more parks outside of Disney and Universal would embrace the dark ride over coasters a bit more than they do now.

 

[whylightbulb]

No, I think in general, WDW is just not that important in the grand scheme of life. It has nothing to do with the quality or what they are building. Right now I am happy with my fun to cost ratio of going to WDW. If that changes, I won't go. It's pretty simple.

By the way, before I respond to your response I'd like to thank you for continuing the diolog with me. Although we may not agree on everything I do respect your point of view and can learn from it. I can certainly understand your point of view with respect to WDW not being as important to you as it is to me. After all, it has nothing to do with your life's work or future. It's simply a place to go to have fun.

My concern as a business owner in this industry is that most of my clients look to Disney, especially WDW for some reason, to gauge where they should be in terms of quality and content. And because they are not Disney, they feel as though they can reduce their scope by a pretty large margin. Also, If WDW starts to see slips in attendance that will affect my industry in a negative way. I really do have a vested interest, emotionally and professionaly, to see WDW succeed and exceed expectations.

But more importantly, and I say this with only a little jest, Disney and Universal are the only places with enough working capitol to produce truly spectacular attractions (although Dubai is shaping up to be in the same category) that I can enjoy as well as work on. Personally, knowing what is possible with today's technology and the Disney budget and talent pool, riding or working on Soarin' or Everst just doesn't do it for me personally.

All that being said, let me ask you a question. Let's imagine you were to visit WDW 10 years from now and you experienced at least 7 or 8 attractions that were, in your opinion, 100% more exciting, engaging and interesting than any you had visited in the past. Are you telling me that you wouldn't be more motivated to revisit and experience new rides and shows with the thought, "how are they going to top that?" Isn't there less of a chance that you would be making the decision to never visit WDW again? If your impression was, "that ride wasn't just okay it was fantastic," don't you think there would be more of a chance of subsequent visits than there is now?

I know these are difficult questions to answer with any certainty because you perhaps couldn't imagine how you would feel, or what the attractions could be like to earn such high marks in your opinion. I would be interested to see an honest response though.

I would think part of your decision on where to vacation in the future would have to depend on whether you felt the destination would offer unique and quality experiences that you and your family could enjoy together. Certainly you wouldn't be happy going to the same movie over and over, even if it's your absolute favorite. The same for WDW. How could you continue to go back again and again if there were no new experiences for you?

I disagree. I think I have a different perspective. I've never been "lost in the immersion of a ride experience". It's a ride, or a show, nothing more. That holds true for the new attractions as well as the old.

The fact that you have never experienced an attraction as I've described is probably due to several factors. First, maybe you experienced the Haunted Mansion, for example, as a teen or an adult the first time and not as a child? For myself, visiting WDW for the first time when I was four years old, then every year thereafter made a huge impression on me. I truly could imagine the Ghost Host being a real ghost and all the illusions I was seeing were real to me. Back then I couldn't articulate or understand the subtle details that placed me in these fantasy environments and made me believe. Now I do understand it enough to know when it's not being accomplished to the same level.

If we can continue to create this kind of "magic" for children of today we've partially succeeded. The problem is it's more difficult in today's world of PS3s and Gameboys to compete. That's one reason why I champion producing the best product possible and not just "good enough."

Another reason you may not relate to the type of ride/show experience I speak of is because what is possible today would make Pirates and HM pale in comparison. You may be almost as jaded as the children I speak of in the above paragraph. It will take the kind of attraction I'm talking about to truly impress you beyond the "good enough" stage.

Have you had a chance to visit Tokyo DisneySea? The closest we have ever come to the type of quality I speak of can be found there. Walking through Mysterious Island or the Arabian Coast and taking in the detail and atmosphere was unlike any theme park in the world. The attractions are so well run and so immersive that I would bet money even you would begin to capitulate a least a little.

 

[Bob Connor]

Whylightbulb,

Do you know anything about that Journey into Imagination with figment? Just looking at you tube, there is a HUGE difference between the original and current rides. In fact, a dark ride at Kennywood is much better than the current Figment. I read the original was mechanically unreliable but couldn't that be solved with trackless cars? The rides I mentioned, KW's Ghostwood estate and Hard Rock's NIWS use trackless vehicles and wonder why Disney dosen't (perhaps not invented here?). By the way, I hope the original Imagination did not go into a landfill, seems like a waste if it did, because isn't it common to buy and sell rides?

 

[JimboJones123]

I really don't care where this thread went after 2 pages of nothing.

OP: Threatening Disney means you just want people to get stirred up with this thread.
It worked. Cute.

The total point doesn't make sense. There isn't a person here that would say they enjoy the experience more with more people stuffed in the parks.

Disney has led the Box office for the past month.
Disney's new offer will skyrocket the guest count (in a much better way than free dining).
Building something new just to build something new isn't working. They have pushed many attractions out the past 6-7 years. Some big, some small. They are at about a 50-50 success. So if it means slowing things down to get highter quality, I'm all for it.
Guest satisfaction is getting higher and higher as crowds get less and less.

Basically, if Disney really wanted to listen to guests, they would turn away almost all guests but "you". Lower prices for "you". Open only attractions "you" like. It isn't just about "YOU".

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I really don't care where this thread went after 2 pages of nothing.

".

And thats why and what you contributed.

 

[raven]

I really don't care where this thread went after 2 pages of nothing.

And thats why and what you contributed.

I had pancakes for breakfast.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I had pancakes for breakfast.

LUCKY! I only had eggs...

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I had pancakes for breakfast.

Really I had Scottish sausage

 

[jakeman]

By the way, before I respond to your response I'd like to thank you for continuing the diolog with me. Although we may not agree on everything I do respect your point of view and can learn from it. I can certainly understand your point of view with respect to WDW not being as important to you as it is to me. After all, it has nothing to do with your life's work or future. It's simply a place to go to have fun.

Not a problem! I don't mind civil debates at all. I'm sure somewhere between your passion and my apathy there is the average consumer. :wave:

Regarding DisneySea, I would love to visit there. While the theming is not as important to me as it is to others, I can definately appreciate the time and effort it takes and what it can contribute to an experience.

I'm not so sure that I'm jaded or if I am just easily impressed. :ROFLOL:

I'll admit my love of Disney is a paradox. On one hand I enjoy the parks and would be happy to vacation solely there for the rest of my life. On the other hand, if the whole place burned down tomorrow, I would have great memories but have no real loss given what the rest of the world has to offer. It's quite the quandry!

 

[bjlc57]

how many more warning threads are needed..

Now we have 14 pages of no new rumors about WDW.. not counting the 25 plus pages of Stale at WDW..

and how many pages are posted here..

and We are all saying the exact same THING.. DISNEY YOU HAD BETTER START LISTENING..

and you had better show that you are listening with ACTION instead of rhetoric.

no excuses.. no money shortage.. WDW doesn't have a money shortage that prevents the place from being CLEAN..

and if they do, then problems are FAR MORE SERIOUS then you could possibly imagine..

and if you can't hear right from the get go that just cleanliness needs to be dealt with..

THEN YOU JUST DON'T CARE..

and if you don't care.. neither will we.. when we go somewhere else..

but action.. and I really mean IMMEDIATE ACTION is called for..


because the most loyal of your patronage is telling you FLAT OUT that you have serious problems.. and there are the ones who live and breath and defend you on a daily basis.

and if THESE PEOPLE SAY YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.. what are others saying?

the people who aren't dying to come back?
the people who don't play Disney tunes in their car on a daily basis?
the people who don't have a room dedicated just to their WDW vacations?

and those people will leave you first..

and may have already caught the first train out..

Disney, its time that you start listening.

 

[devoy1701]

Now we have 14 pages of no new rumors about WDW.. not counting the 25 plus pages of Stale at WDW..

and how many pages are posted here..

and We are all saying the exact same THING.. DISNEY YOU HAD BETTER START LISTENING..

and you had better show that you are listening with ACTION instead of rhetoric.

no excuses.. no money shortage.. WDW doesn't have a money shortage that prevents the place from being CLEAN..

and if they do, then problems are FAR MORE SERIOUS then you could possibly imagine..

and if you can't hear right from the get go that just cleanliness needs to be dealt with..

THEN YOU JUST DON'T CARE..

and if you don't care.. neither will we.. when we go somewhere else..

but action.. and I really mean IMMEDIATE ACTION is called for..


because the most loyal of your patronage is telling you FLAT OUT that you have serious problems.. and there are the ones who live and breath and defend you on a daily basis.

and if THESE PEOPLE SAY YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.. what are others saying?

the people who aren't dying to come back?
the people who don't play Disney tunes in their car on a daily basis?
the people who don't have a room dedicated just to their WDW vacations?

and those people will leave you first..

and may have already caught the first train out..

Disney, its time that you start listening.

good post. Glad I'm not alone with the Disney Tunes in the car thing. It makes it worse that I'm only 45 minutes away from the parks...i can't stay away.

After reading many books about Walt and his ideas and dreams and what he was able to create with Disneyland and what he had hoped to create with Disney World...I get very disgusted with what the Disney Company has become as of late with just simply promoting what works (HSM, Hannah Montana) and jumping on the latest band wagon (American Idol). Walt Disney hated sequels...once he finished a story he was ready to move onto the next. The company needs to once again be able innovation and new guest experiences rather than the bottom line and stock holders. Disney said something along the lines of "all I have to do is create what the people want...I never have to worry about where the money will come from...the money will come"

The Disney Parks need to get back to the idea of trying to outdo itself and their latest craze...not sign Johnny Depp for a FORTH chapter of PotC or release the 3rd HSM in the theaters because it means garaunteed money! They're completely missing the point with putting off ride refurbs and new attractions because attendence has been steadily rising over the past 5 years or because the economy is stinking right now...We shouldn't have an empty WoL Pavillion or a non quite finished SSE or paint chipping on riders and a Yeti that only works sometimes!

Seriously... Start Listening...and start THINKING with the Imagineers again...just make sure there is a Roy to finance your Walt.

 

[drew81]

Now we have 14 pages of no new rumors about WDW.. not counting the 25 plus pages of Stale at WDW..

and how many pages are posted here..

and We are all saying the exact same THING.. DISNEY YOU HAD BETTER START LISTENING..

and you had better show that you are listening with ACTION instead of rhetoric.

no excuses.. no money shortage.. WDW doesn't have a money shortage that prevents the place from being CLEAN..

and if they do, then problems are FAR MORE SERIOUS then you could possibly imagine..

and if you can't hear right from the get go that just cleanliness needs to be dealt with..

THEN YOU JUST DON'T CARE..

and if you don't care.. neither will we.. when we go somewhere else..

but action.. and I really mean IMMEDIATE ACTION is called for..


because the most loyal of your patronage is telling you FLAT OUT that you have serious problems.. and there are the ones who live and breath and defend you on a daily basis.

and if THESE PEOPLE SAY YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.. what are others saying?

the people who aren't dying to come back?
the people who don't play Disney tunes in their car on a daily basis?
the people who don't have a room dedicated just to their WDW vacations?

and those people will leave you first..

and may have already caught the first train out..

Disney, its time that you start listening.

Thank you for posting this! ITA

 

[C&D]

Okay, I'll play the 'devils advocate', Disney is still doing it 'right' for me.

 

[jakeman]

Now we have 14 pages of no new rumors about WDW.. not counting the 25 plus pages of Stale at WDW..

and how many pages are posted here..

and We are all saying the exact same THING.. DISNEY YOU HAD BETTER START LISTENING..

and you had better show that you are listening with ACTION instead of rhetoric.

no excuses.. no money shortage.. WDW doesn't have a money shortage that prevents the place from being CLEAN..

and if they do, then problems are FAR MORE SERIOUS then you could possibly imagine..

and if you can't hear right from the get go that just cleanliness needs to be dealt with..

THEN YOU JUST DON'T CARE..

and if you don't care.. neither will we.. when we go somewhere else..

but action.. and I really mean IMMEDIATE ACTION is called for..


because the most loyal of your patronage is telling you FLAT OUT that you have serious problems.. and there are the ones who live and breath and defend you on a daily basis.

and if THESE PEOPLE SAY YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.. what are others saying?

the people who aren't dying to come back?
the people who don't play Disney tunes in their car on a daily basis?
the people who don't have a room dedicated just to their WDW vacations?

and those people will leave you first..

and may have already caught the first train out..

Disney, its time that you start listening.

Have you even read the threads? Or did you just look at the page count and assume everyone agreed with you?

I would say that it is split pretty even between those that see a problem and those that don't. Which probably means that the truth is somewhere in the middle of total degredation of the parks and a vacation utopia.

Let's not also forget that 2 of the 3 threads you are referencing were started by the same poster that very clearly stated that he wanted to stir up converation (not that this is a bad thing).

For everyone one person that states they are not returning because of the problems, I would venture to guess that there is one person buying an annual pass for the first time and hasn't found this site yet.

It's all about balance, which is something that has been missing in threads like this.

Additionally, on a personal note, if you plan on communicating your passionate ideals with the Walt Disney Company directly, you may want to review your correspondence for capitalization and punctuation.