Disney World unfairly slammed for wages.

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Not so. There have been many times when I worked part time, but I put in some 40+ hour weeks because school/college was out, and I wanted to pick up more cash. The number of hours does not dictate the rate of pay deserved. The complexity of the job, the required skill sets, and the level of responsibility is what should determine your pay rate.

While I agree not all jobs are equal, there shouldn't be a single job where the minimum wage (at full time hours) isn't a living wage. If you want to work part-time and the company allows it, then that is fine. But the hourly rate should be living wage (i.e., if $13/hour is living wage if you work full time, then that's what you have to be paid).


Because those jobs do not merit a 'survival' rate.

According to YOU. You cannot employ people, expecting them to work for you, if they will not be able to support themself on the pay.

Lets better define survival rate. To me that means a rate at which a person working a 40 hour week, can support a wife and two kids in a modest apartment, attending public school, and living a frugal but not paycheck to paycheck life.

I'm using a single person for survival rate, since that is what matters most. I'll agree then that those unskilled jobs shouldn't be paying people for that levelof support...people CHOOSE to get married; they CHOOSE to have children. I'm talking about bare minimum for an individual.

Now that amount is going to vary from area to area, but do you really think a person should make the kind of money that takes by doing something like frying hamburgers at McDonald. You may be able to support yourself by frying hamburgers, but thats not a job you should be able to support a family with. Now if you move up the McDolnalds ladder a bit, maybe become Assistant Manager, thats a different story.

See above. I'm saying living wage should be based on a single individual.

There are also lots of people who are free during the day who want to pick up some extra money. When I worked in a grocery store the school aged people worked nights, weekends, and school holidays. The people who wanted to pick up some extra money (to suppliment the living wage their spouse was making) worked during the day - when their kids were in school and their spouses were at work.
When my brother and I were in school, my mother worked as a school aide during the lunch hours. My father worked a 40+ hour a week job, and was paid a living wage, but our family could use more money for luxuries. So my mother worked during the hours her kids were in school. Even if she worked 40 hours a week as a lunch aide, there was not way she could have supported the family on her own, and for the work a lunch aid performed, she was paid accordingly.

Just because people have the time and don't necessarily NEED the money doesn't mean that a company should exploit them by paying them less, though. If it costs $15/hour for a single person to live (at 40 hours a week), then that's what the pay rate should be. $15/hour, even if you are only part time.

Again, see my answer above. There are plenty of people who will work all sorts of hours of the day who are not looking to live on what they take home.

And again, companies shouldn't exploit that, as it adversely affects those who are looking to live on what they take home. The marketplace should NOT be designed for those looking to supplement their income to purchase luxury items. MAYBE if EVERYONE in the country were employed and making a living wage I'd agree. But there are too many people out of work for that to be considered.

To a point you are correct. But there is cost reduction and there is cost reduction. Improvements in process and procedures (which is what I do) can drive increased productivity, especially when coupled with new products and materials. But yes, cutting costs by cutting wages or labor can lead to a downward death spiral.

I wasn't referring to improvements in processes, though. UI was referring to reductions in workforce to reduce payroll to make the bottom line look better....or eliminating processes for the same reason.


Many people can only work part time, or only want to work part time.

That's fine. But that doesn't mean you can exploit those who need to work full time.

Jobs should pay what the job merits. Not all jobs merit a wage that a person working 40 hours a week can support a family on.

As I said above, I'm looking at it for an individual's living wage, since marriage and family ARE choices.

If you set the minimum pay rate for all jobs equal to that amount, you are going to see a vast reduction in the number of part time jobs available.

Well if the only reason people have them is to supplement their income to purchase luxury items then I'm fine with that.

You do realize that the profit margin on items sold in a grocery store, once all costs (including wages) are factored in is on the order of 1 to 2 percent. Grocery stores are one of the most cutthroat and tightly controlled from a cost standpoint industries out there.

I was using that as an example. And I'd disagree. Groceries in metropolitan areas are much more expensive than in rural areas...even when they come form the same source. Whether that's a result of the grocery store or the supplier doesn't matter much when looking at what the consumer ultimately pays.
 

Mr Bill

Well-Known Member
In a rare moment of seriousness..... ta ta tummmm...
I have a wee bit of experience in technical training both in a formal and OJT environment, I have for my sins been a capitalist slave driver since I left the serve of her Maj, so I would argue that based on my experiences in both the public and private sector...

S__________g Eggs-

1. In times of fiscal prudence training is always cut followed by marketing and development. Bean counters know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
2. Low pay has its limitations and only really works when you have a large labour pool to draw from with little alternative of employment. Yes your saving on wages but at what cost to efficiency and service delivery? Youll soon find out when other businesses start recruiting.
3. Having said that pay isnt everything, a good working environment can offset not being the best payer in the area, but you still have to offer a reasonable wage in the area/job you are employing people for
4. Pay badly have poor conditions and the only employees youll keep long term are the dregs no one else will employ.
5. Even bad training costs, probably costs more but that's another point, if your turning over staff because you pay badly thats incurring costs either in recruitment, continual training or efficiency.
6. A peed off work force isn't good for the customer experience, and they ultimately pay everyone's wages.
7. Disney relies on the good will of its staff and blind acceptance of its customers than any company Ive encountered. That will not last for ever.
While I agree with most of your points here, I would like to state that not ALL bean counters are ignorant of the long-term effects of their decisions and the values of things such as training, though many are.

I'd also like to thank Steve and the mods for allowing this thread to stay open as long as it has, with the nature of discussion that has taken place.
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
While I agree not all jobs are equal, there shouldn't be a single job where the minimum wage (at full time hours) isn't a living wage. If you want to work part-time and the company allows it, then that is fine. But the hourly rate should be living wage (i.e., if $13/hour is living wage if you work full time, then that's what you have to be paid).


If you and I work the same job, but you do it 40 hours a week and I do it 20, why should you be paid more ?


I'm using a single person for survival rate, since that is what matters most. I'll agree then that those unskilled jobs shouldn't be paying people for that levelof support...people CHOOSE to get married; they CHOOSE to have children. I'm talking about bare minimum for an individual.



See above. I'm saying living wage should be based on a single individual.

But it's not, that's the problem with our discussion. We are comparing apples to sump pumps. I am arguing that there are jobs out there that a person working 40 a week at could not and should not be able to raise a family on. You are saying they should be able to support themselves. Short of selling lemonaid at roadside stand, I agree with you. However that's not what people have been calling a living wage in this thread.




Just because people have the time and don't necessarily NEED the money doesn't mean that a company should exploit them by paying them less, though. If it costs $15/hour for a single person to live (at 40 hours a week), then that's what the pay rate should be. $15/hour, even if you are only part time.

What if the jobs not worth $15 an hour ?


As I said above, I'm looking at it for an individual's living wage, since marriage and family ARE choices.

With that logic we can argue that working at a substandard job is a CHOICE, as is living in a single bedroom apartment by yourself. You have the CHOICE to live with 5 other people. Using 'choice' in an argument leads to problems.

[/quote]
I was using that as an example. And I'd disagree. Groceries in metropolitan areas are much more expensive than in rural areas...even when they come form the same source. Whether that's a result of the grocery store or the supplier doesn't matter much when looking at what the consumer ultimately pays.[/QUOTE]

That's because the cost of doing business in a metropolitan area is higher. You ever notice how in a given area the price for most non-sale items are pretty much the same from store to store. Thats because grocery store pricing is transparent. With all the circulars out there, people know what each store is selling at, and each store also knows. Prices are knocked down to the bare minimum to make a profit. It is very easy compart product and price from one store to another. It's capitalisim at its best. You are paying minimal markup for food - markup from the store that is. There are other markups in the supply chain that are much higher.


-dave
 

mp2bill

Well-Known Member
ok... My friend who has been at disney for a decade has a college degree, works in an office position there and makes less than 14hr. One of her friends who got laid off last year got a job at another employer and makes considerably more doing the same job.

Take your Ayn Rand loving BS and shove it... Conservative BS like that will kill this country.

Temper, temper...:shrug:
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
When I inquired about it they said that you need no camera experience to be in PhotoPass. That explains a lot.


Id have hoped that a photographer would be more likely to have higher sales of their work than a camera system operator :shrug: Or is this a case of were Disney the drones will buy any old crap?

But at todays tourist exchange rate that pay is less than UK minimum wage
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Id have hoped that a photographer would be more likely to have higher sales of their work than a camera system operator :shrug: Or is this a case of were Disney the drones will buy any old crap?

But at todays tourist exchange rate that pay is less than UK minimum wage

The actual photographers are in the event photography dept, which is not Photopass. A lot of them are VERY good.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
If you and I work the same job, but you do it 40 hours a week and I do it 20, why should you be paid more ?

Because I worked 40 hours a week and you didn't. If the job pays $13/hour, then that is what we should get. I'll get $13/hour for my 40, and you get $13/hour for your 20. You can't seriously be arguing that you should get paid the same amount as me? Did we switch sides???:)

But it's not, that's the problem with our discussion. We are comparing apples to sump pumps. I am arguing that there are jobs out there that a person working 40 a week at could not and should not be able to raise a family on. You are saying they should be able to support themselves. Short of selling lemonaid at roadside stand, I agree with you. However that's not what people have been calling a living wage in this thread.

I think that's where our disagreement stems. I personally think it is misleading to define financial stability when it only factors a family of four (even the government calculations for poverty level do this). It is a choice to have a family. If you can't afford a family, then don't have one. Of course, that argument doesn't include those who had well-paying jobs but now count themselves lucky to even get a job at the minimum wage. But the minimum wage should be what it would cost a single person to live.

What if the jobs not worth $15 an hour ?

There I think is the problem. The "worth" of a job is completely arbitrary and in contrast to other jobs. You just can't simply expect someone to work for money that does nothing to help them pay rent or eat. I mean, do we really believe a CEO does work that is worth millions of dollars a year? Do we really believe that teachers, who educate our children and can inspire them to greatness, is only worth $35K per year? The work of scientists and teachers is VASTLY more important than anything a CEO does, yet they don't make anything close as to what a CEO does. Now yes, the market determines the salary, but at some point in the past there was an arbitrary decision as to what that was and it evolved from there.

With that logic we can argue that working at a substandard job is a CHOICE, as is living in a single bedroom apartment by yourself. You have the CHOICE to live with 5 other people. Using 'choice' in an argument leads to problems.

Choosing to have a family to support is NOT the same type of choice as choosing to take a substandard job. It just isn't. Choosing to live with others may or may not be the same type of choice. However, many people have no alternative other than to take a substandard job. You don't want to support a wife? Don't get married. Don't want to support children? Don't get in the position of having one. The last two are deliberate choices that can be avoided. Money is a necessity of life, and there are a lot of people who have no alternative choices other than to take a substandard job or live with a roommate.

That's because the cost of doing business in a metropolitan area is higher. You ever notice how in a given area the price for most non-sale items are pretty much the same from store to store. Thats because grocery store pricing is transparent. With all the circulars out there, people know what each store is selling at, and each store also knows. Prices are knocked down to the bare minimum to make a profit. It is very easy compart product and price from one store to another. It's capitalisim at its best. You are paying minimal markup for food - markup from the store that is. There are other markups in the supply chain that are much higher.

As I previously said, it's not relevant. It was used as an example merely to indicate that "living wage" isn't entirely in the control of employers. And I live in Manhattan, so I'm well aware of how much more expensive it is to live in a city. Though the fact is, there is absolutely no legitimate reason for it to be more expensive to buy things here than anywhere else (real estate being the exclusion, as you most definitely are paying for location).

Maybe an alternative to a high minimum wage would be to more closely regulate rents, similar to New York, only more realistically. But that's another argument! :wave:
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
Because I worked 40 hours a week and you didn't. If the job pays $13/hour, then that is what we should get. I'll get $13/hour for my 40, and you get $13/hour for your 20. You can't seriously be arguing that you should get paid the same amount as me? Did we switch sides???:)

I think we came to the same side :D

I think that's where our disagreement stems. I personally think it is misleading to define financial stability when it only factors a family of four (even the government calculations for poverty level do this). It is a choice to have a family. If you can't afford a family, then don't have one. Of course, that argument doesn't include those who had well-paying jobs but now count themselves lucky to even get a job at the minimum wage. But the minimum wage should be what it would cost a single person to live.

I don't think that is quite the crux of our disagreement, but was part of the misunderstanding. See below for what I think the real disagreement is.


There I think is the problem. The "worth" of a job is completely arbitrary and in contrast to other jobs. You just can't simply expect someone to work for money that does nothing to help them pay rent or eat. I mean, do we really believe a CEO does work that is worth millions of dollars a year? Do we really believe that teachers, who educate our children and can inspire them to greatness, is only worth $35K per year? The work of scientists and teachers is VASTLY more important than anything a CEO does, yet they don't make anything close as to what a CEO does. Now yes, the market determines the salary, but at some point in the past there was an arbitrary decision as to what that was and it evolved from there.

THIS is the point of our disagreement. I DO think there are jobs that SHOULD pay less than a living wage (at 40 hours per week)

Fry cook at McDonalds
Someone who sweeps floors
Ticket taker at outdoor events.

and a host of others.

Now, when I say floor sweeper, I mean somone who ONLY sweeps floors. A janitor should be paid a living wage (however we define it). A janitor does more than sweep floors. There are maintainence skills, there are hazardous materials, there may be a Black Seal requirement, etc.

But there are quite a lot of jobs out there that are put your head down, don't think, repeat the same task, and then go home. If you set a minimum wage for these jobs, you price them out of the system. That actualy ends up HURTING people. If you make the minimum for these jobs high, they will become full time jobs that require training and responsibilites that causual workers will not want to undertake.



Choosing to have a family to support is NOT the same type of choice as choosing to take a substandard job. It just isn't. Choosing to live with others may or may not be the same type of choice. However, many people have no alternative other than to take a substandard job. You don't want to support a wife? Don't get married. Don't want to support children? Don't get in the position of having one. The last two are deliberate choices that can be avoided. Money is a necessity of life, and there are a lot of people who have no alternative choices other than to take a substandard job or live with a roommate.

We can argue choice all over the place, but it is no longer germain to this discussion.


As I previously said, it's not relevant. It was used as an example merely to indicate that "living wage" isn't entirely in the control of employers. And I live in Manhattan, so I'm well aware of how much more expensive it is to live in a city. Though the fact is, there is absolutely no legitimate reason for it to be more expensive to buy things here than anywhere else (real estate being the exclusion, as you most definitely are paying for location).

Maybe an alternative to a high minimum wage would be to more closely regulate rents, similar to New York, only more realistically. But that's another argument! :wave:

Costs are higher in NYC for more than just location. Logistics are more complicated, infrastructure costs are higher, utility costs are higher (partialy due to geographic reasons), etc. However, that IS another discussion. :)


-dave
 

Courtney1188

New Member
My personal point is, why SHOULD Disney pay more when people will work for what they offer anyway?

If you don't like the possible wages or work environment, why would you work there?


It's not Disney's fault at all, and I find it humorous people try to place the blame on them, they are just running a streamlined business building shareholder value.


Jimmy Thick- 20k shares!

I never said that Disney should pay more, nor did I place any blame on them. I said that the article was not slamming Disney, it was stating facts. I'm not saying it's anyone's 'fault'. Yes, I did say that their wages are quite low...obviously, since they ranked #4 on the least paying jobs. But nowhere in my post did I offer any sort of opinion on the matter, so I'm really not sure why you're jumping all over me. If you look anything like your icon...maybe it's time to cut back on the roid rage :lol:

And that last sentence is a joke...just to clarify. Since you totally misconstrued my last post.
 

ILOVEDISNEY

Active Member
Way back when in 1971 there were no long-time CMs at WDW. Most were wide-eyed college students and young men and women out of high school who weren't worried about getting/keeping a low-paying job. Most of the men were worried about going to Vietnam to become cannon fodder. Most of you forget that not too long ago there was talk of Disney being taken over by hostile forces and/or closing the doors of WDW and DL due to poor financials. It's not been that long either since Disney started paying its shareholders dividends, as all the money was being plowed back in the company to keep it afloat. Disney can't keep the CMs and the shareholders happy and expect to stay in business. I feel sorry for the CMs, but at least they have a job of some sort. Try telling the 10% of the US workers that are unemployed that WDW CMs are not paid enough.
 

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