Disney slowly losing some of what made it special.

[englanddg]

You also went at what is literally... the lowest crowd portion of the year... so... I guess getting 'most' of what you want when the parks are at the lowest 20% of the crowd levels is success???

I'll repeat.

"It isn't nearly as infeasible as some make it out to be...is my point."

And, if you look at my Trip Report, you'll see I was very aware the crowds were low (lower than usual even, as I used to regularly come during this week from 2010 - 2014).

But, I thought the "general consensus" was "there are no slow times anymore"...now you say it is the "lowest 20%"? So, there is ebb and flow? So confusing.

Go in July or the last few weeks of Dec early Jan, guess what...it's crowded.

Want special or hot new attractions or dining experiences? Guess what...they book up early.

Heck, in mid-Oct I'm going to go see Phil Collins in NYC, and I'm taking my Dad.

He wants to do a dinner cruise and a double decker tour of the city. Guess what....3 months ago, most of the cruises were already booked. And some of the tours (outside of the hop on hop off) he was interested in, already booked. And this was back in May, when I got the Phil Collins tickets, which...guess what...were booking up fast, and I was lucky to get the seats I did.

Two years ago I had to plan a last minute trip to replace my trip to Disneyland Paris with the kiddo, and I also chose NYC. I was still able to get a room, access to a Times Square New Years Rooftop Party and other things within 3 days of visit. It was costly, it was difficult (took a lot of try and fail research), we had to stay in Brooklyn in a 1 bedroom room, and I didn't get my first (or second or third or fourth) choices. But, it happened. And, it was glorious.

This isn't any different than any other vacation experience out there, in that respect.

Do I like FP+? Not really. I miss the paper FP more for the:

a) Lack of limitations
b) "Guest interaction" that happened regularly....you'd be leaving a park and see a family entering and give them your FPs, and vice versa...that is gone...but was a nice "community" touch.

Do I like the fact you have to book ADRs for the more popular venues? Not really. But, that doesn't mean you need ADRs to eat well when there, especially if you look outside of the popular options and/or eat off schedule (which even with ADRs you may need to do).

If you don't like the pre-planning nature, fine. Accept that, and move on. 8 years ago to get BBB in the Castle or to eat at Cindy's, I had to call early. That part hasn't changed (and never will).

So, I'll repeat...

"It isn't nearly as infeasible as some make it out to be...is my point."

Because, it isn't.

 

[MinnieWaffles]

I'll repeat.

"It isn't nearly as infeasible as some make it out to be...is my point."

And, if you look at my Trip Report, you'll see I was very aware the crowds were low (lower than usual even, as I used to regularly come during this week from 2010 - 2014).

But, I thought the "general consensus" was "there are no slow times anymore"...now you say it is the "lowest 20%"? So, there is ebb and flow? So confusing.

People move the goalposts to support their argument. You see it all the time.

 

[englanddg]

People move the goalposts to support their argument. You see it all the time.

That said, I don't think @flynnibus necessarily intends to do that.

I respect his points. He's not often wrong.

But, frustration and gripes can turn into a warped perspective of reality.

And, reality is, WDW is a popular destination. This is a good thing. It is also a bad thing.

If it wasn't, then the gripes flip the opposite direction (decreased maintenance, CMs out doing things such as "making magic"...I'll use the recent CM who was handing out popcorn at Sci Fi Dine....I've never seen that before, but that was part of her job, etc).

It is always in flux. This is a good thing. This is also a bad thing.

You have misfires (Figgy!!!), but you also have successes (I really don't like Pandora as a concept, I didn't like the movie much at all...but FoP and the land in general...."work" at Animal Kingdom, as does the night show).

Things change, and that is ok. In fact, it is inevitable.

But, I do understand his frustration, 100%. I don't think he's wrong, he's not (necessarily). I just think he may be a bit too focused upon it.

I understand it, I really do.

 

[flynnibus]

When the topic is centered around contention of availability.... saying "it's not that bad" when your frame of reference is the lowest crowd period of year.... by definition your experience will be significantly easier than the majority.

And @englanddg - aren't you still traveling as a party of two?

So again... not exactly the same type of experience that a more average party would see.

The issue with this is... most people see their own experiences and can't picture what others have to cope with. Small parties is a huge advantage when you are fitting into limited availability.

 

[englanddg]

When the topic is centered around contention of availability.... saying "it's not that bad" when your frame of reference is the lowest crowd period of year.... by definition your experience will be significantly easier than the majority.

And @englanddg - aren't you still traveling as a party of two?

So again... not exactly the same type of experience that a more average party would see.

The issue with this is... most people see their own experiences and can't picture what others have to cope with. Small parties is a huge advantage when you are fitting into limited availability.

Small parties is always an advantage.

Large parties is always a disadvantage.

I get your general frustration with those who "visit the parks" on other's dime (and planning and stress) and then preach it is wonderful here.

But, by the same right, nothing about planning a vacation at Disney for a large, or small, party is any different than anywhere else.

The choice stuff is taken, and taken early. By locals and by those "in the know". The rest is mashed out between tour groups, and the like.

I tried to plan a weekend to see DC with the kid (and she lives near there) and the only way to get to the top of the Washington Monument, more than 6 months in advance...for our dates....was to show up at 6a for the "free for all tickets" they sell.

My "frame of reference" isn't my experience. My "frame of reference" is that it is exactly as I said.

And I'll repeat....

"It isn't nearly as infeasible as some make it out to be...is my point."

 

[eliza61nyc]

People move the goalposts to support their argument. You see it all the time.

It's not moving the goal post, it's giving alternatives. You can't come on a site claiming how impossible it is to do something and when called out and proven that it is NOT impossible claim the goal post is moving.

I'm assuming that anyone that travels at all would know that most VACATION spots you go during Christmas week is going to be pack and reservations would be hard to get. but you cannot say, "oh it takes months of planning" for example to get an ADR when that is not absolute.
In all your years of traveling you really can't figure out that a party of 8 is going to need more advance planning than say a party of 4?
I think people advance this mantra simply to complain. which is fine if that's what folks want to do but at least tell the complete story.

1) Yes it is more packed than 20 years ago. One has to accept it and deal with it.
2) no, you do not have to have an ADR during a lot of the year to have a ts meal. common sense dictates that if you go during Christmas week and in July it will be more difficult. Flexibility is key. If you have a little princess in your party and she must eat at the castle or BOG then yes you need to plan.
3) there are tons of people who go and donot preplan every nano second. I'm just back from a week trip, we got up in the morning called disney dining and had plenty of options.

Yes I purposely choose to go during low season. that offers the best opportunity to travel how we like

 

[Ariel1986]

When the topic is centered around contention of availability.... saying "it's not that bad" when your frame of reference is the lowest crowd period of year.... by definition your experience will be significantly easier than the majority.

And @englanddg - aren't you still traveling as a party of two?

So again... not exactly the same type of experience that a more average party would see.

The issue with this is... most people see their own experiences and can't picture what others have to cope with. Small parties is a huge advantage when you are fitting into limited availability.

We were in the World in mid July. Throughout the trip we were able to get same/next day FP's for Toy Story, Frozen, Soarin, RnRc, the Mountains, Peter Pan... not all as a party of 2 either, we visited with friends and some of those were party of 4. We also had a couple of times where wait times for Toy Story & Soarin were under 20 mins.

I also booked FoP at about 20 days out. Checked a few times over the weeks leading up to our trip. Got a Slinky FP for 4 at a few weeks out.

I booked several "hot" ADRs (Ohana, California Grill) at about 30 days out. Party of 4. I didn't make any of our ADRs at 180 days as we didn't even book until about 70 out.

But, I guess I am in the minority or lucky. Or 4 is still not the "average" party. Though I am not the only person to point this out to the many with fingers in their ears, who only check at 180/60 days out then cry about the crazy planning. So perhaps not.

 

[flynnibus]

We were in the World in mid July. Throughout the trip we were able to get same/next day FP's for Toy Story, Frozen, Soarin, RnRc, the Mountains, Peter Pan... not all as a party of 2 either, we visited with friends and some of those were party of 4. We also had a couple of times where wait times for Toy Story & Soarin were under 20 mins.

I also booked FoP at about 20 days out. Checked a few times over the weeks leading up to our trip. Got a Slinky FP for 4 at a few weeks out.

I booked several "hot" ADRs (Ohana, California Grill) at about 30 days out. Party of 4. I didn't make any of our ADRs at 180 days as we didn't even book until about 70 out.

But, I guess I am in the minority or lucky. Or 4 is still not the "average" party. Though I am not the only person to point this out to the many with fingers in their ears, who only check at 180/60 days out then cry about the crazy planning. So perhaps not.

You quote 20min wait times for toy story...and soarin... and then are sarcastic about people taking your experiences as typical?

That's pure comedy gold

It's as if people don't even know what the word anecdotal means...

 

[flynnibus]

It's not moving the goal post, it's giving alternatives. You can't come on a site claiming how impossible it is to do something and when called out and proven that it is NOT impossible claim the goal post is moving.

I'm assuming that anyone that travels at all would know that most VACATION spots you go during Christmas week is going to be pack and reservations would be hard to get. but you cannot say, "oh it takes months of planning" for example to get an ADR when that is not absolute.
In all your years of traveling you really can't figure out that a party of 8 is going to need more advance planning than say a party of 4?
I think people advance this mantra simply to complain. which is fine if that's what folks want to do but at least tell the complete story.

1) Yes it is more packed than 20 years ago. One has to accept it and deal with it.
2) no, you do not have to have an ADR during a lot of the year to have a ts meal. common sense dictates that if you go during Christmas week and in July it will be more difficult. Flexibility is key. If you have a little princess in your party and she must eat at the castle or BOG then yes you need to plan.
3) there are tons of people who go and donot preplan every nano second. I'm just back from a week trip, we got up in the morning called disney dining and had plenty of options.

Yes I purposely choose to go during low season. that offers the best opportunity to travel how we like

This entire post can be summed up as 'strawman'

No one is saying parties of 8 are the norm... or comparing to Christmas week.

Don't use the top 5% to describe the norm... just like you shouldn't use the bottom 5% either.

The repeat problem is people go "oh I don't see that..." and can't step back and contrast how their requirements may have made that much easier than the middle of the band.

 

[flynnibus]

But, by the same right, nothing about planning a vacation at Disney for a large, or small, party is any different than anywhere else.

I'll say it again... the difference is your monument experience was a handful of things you wanted to do. You didn't need that multi month book ahead for the vast vast majority of things you attempted to do, or go to eat, etc. its not even the same scale at Disney.

How many dining experiences did you book more than one day ahead on your dc trip?

This is not about one attraction... it's the sum of multiple pieces constricting you from multiple directions and the compounding effect.

 

[MinnieWaffles]

I'll say it again... the difference is your monument experience was a handful of things you wanted to do. You didn't need that multi month book ahead for the vast vast majority of things you attempted to do, or go to eat, etc. its not even the same scale at Disney.

How many dining experiences did you book more than one day ahead on your dc trip?

This is not about one attraction... it's the sum of multiple pieces constricting you from multiple directions and the compounding effect.

Why are you making this into such a big deal?

 

[Ariel1986]

You quote 20min wait times for toy story...and soarin... and then are sarcastic about people taking your experiences as typical?

That's pure comedy gold

It's as if people don't even know what the word anecdotal means...

More than a few times over an 11 day trip, wait times were low for both those and other attractions... in the middle of July... and I've seen several trip reports over the past few months remarking the same especially for Soarin. But because you haven't experienced it it's not typical?

Anyway, I could literally post the opposite and you would come back arguing your own points. I've been going at Christmas (including the "worst week" of the year between the 25th & 31st) and in May or July for the last few years and the overreaction and exaggeration on these boards is actually what's pure comedy gold. But it makes fun reading!

 

[flynnibus]

Why are you making this into such a big deal?

I'm not - I'm simply correcting when someone doesn't follow the point.

 

[WEDwaydatamover]

The decline really began about 1996. It was as if the new strategy was to lower the standards for the newer generations visiting. They would never know the wiser, that a much more magical place once existed where there are now fewer trees with no twinkling lights or benches for sitting or topiaries but instead lighting towers and endless concrete in the HUB and astroterf to sit on or spit on.

 

[MinnieWaffles]

The decline really began about 1996. It was as if the new strategy was to lower the standards for the newer generations visiting. They would never know the wiser, that a much more magical place once existed where there are now fewer trees with no twinkling lights or benches for sitting or topiaries but instead lighting towers and endless concrete in the HUB and astroterf to sit on or spit on.

When were you last at MK? I definitely remember twinkling tree lights and commenting on them after watching the fireworks last September.

 

[WEDwaydatamover]

If you visited the Magic Kingdom pre-hub design you would certainly know what I was referencing.

 

[MinnieWaffles]

If you visited the Magic Kingdom pre-hub design you would certainly know what I was referencing.

Yes, of course I have but I could never see them through the hoards of people waiting for the MSEP then Wishes in the evenings. Getting in and out of the park was a feat!

 

[WEDwaydatamover]

Ok. Not to be disagreeable but how could you not see huge HUB trees sparkling above your head? Nobody in front on you could block that unless the Giant from Mickey and the Beanstalk were in front of you. They were designed to block say... seeing the Contemporary Hotel or Space Mountain from Liberty Square and for shade and beauty.

 

[eliza61nyc]

I'm not - I'm simply correcting when someone doesn't follow the point.

Lol so what's the point?

 

[eliza61nyc]

The decline really began about 1996. It was as if the new strategy was to lower the standards for the newer generations visiting. They would never know the wiser, that a much more magical place once existed where there are now fewer trees with no twinkling lights or benches for sitting or topiaries but instead lighting towers and endless concrete in the HUB and astroterf to sit on or spit on.

Not being snarky but that's like our grandparents sitting around saying "back in my day" life was yada yada yada. I didn't go to disney back in the 80,90's so the complaint that Disney was so magical really doesn't "resonate". I mean what do people do with that complaint??

This is really one argument where I don't know if there is any resolution, I guess I will never "know" the wiser but I also don't know about life in the "good ole days".