News Disney Riviera Resort announced

[Rider]

You’ve found Starbucks that turns into a wine bar in the evenings?

Please tell me where, I could be tempted to include a stop-over next time I visit!

The Disney Springs location was one of 400 Starbucks that did exactly this.

But they stopped in 2017. http://time.com/money/4629133/starbucks-evenings-beer-wine-menu/

Now they do it through their "Reserve" brand stores https://www.foodandwine.com/news/starbucks-reserve-store-seattle-alcohol

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Not a fan either but it has a fan base for sure. Must be the views.

Views, short walk to MK, contemporary design of the rooms -- some of us actually like that.

For such an ugly, messed up resort, it books up pretty well... too well for some times of year for my taste.

From our room in Aug... panoramic doesn't capture how close the park actually looks... to each his/her own, but I'll take this any day (had to reduce quality a good deal to get it to upload)...

 

[GoofGoof]

They are just “probing” the limits...an iger trademark.

They feel that Star Wars zeal combined with Epcot festival revelry will allow a higher price than the place will be worth.

The consumers will cave...at least at first

Agreed in principal on what you are saying, except for your feelings on what the place is worth. It’s worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Just like selling your house. You may have an idea of what you think it should be worth but in reality all that matters is what others are willing to pay for it. So for this resort if direct access to the 2 parks featuring the newest rides based on SW and GoTG (wildly popular IP) and also bus free access to EPCOT for F&W makes demand sky high than it’s worth whatever people are willing to pay. It may be that you or I don’t think paying a premium for that is worth it, but as long as enough other people do then it will sell.

 

[jt04]

Views, short walk to MK, contemporary design of the rooms -- some of us actually like that.

For such an ugly, messed up resort, it books up pretty well... too well for some times of year for my taste.

From our room in Aug... panoramic doesn't capture how close the park actually looks... to each his/her own, but I'll take this any day (had to reduce quality a good deal to get it to upload)...

View attachment 343813

Seeing that at night with the Contemporary, monorail, water pageant and SM could create a fan base I would guess.

 

[Lensman]

It sounds like every Starbucks in every middle class hotel I've ever been too.

I hope it will be better than the Bistros in Courtyard by Marriott.

I've spent a couple of weeks a year for the past 5-6 years at Courtyards. The Bistros aren't bad in the mornings, but I'd hope for better from Le Petit Café in the evenings. At the Courtyard's I was regularly staying at, you'd have to buy your bottles of beer out of the lobby fridge via the front desk. I also don't know whether the coffee will be self-served out of a pump thermos like the Starbucks coffee at the Courtyard Bistro - not that there's anything entirely wrong with that.

As with all things that haven't been directly experienced yet, it's easy to mock it as "similar" to some other thing that can be made to sound like exactly the same thing. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, though. The questions are, how good will the coffee and espresso drinks be, and what kinds of wine and champagne will they be pouring? And the answers may ultimately end up being driven by the demographics and sophistication/snootiness of the clientele.

BTW, I'll note that the Courtyards I've stayed at have tended to be the best "value" hotels - partly because of the Bistros. In the MidWest, they come in at just over $100 a night - comparable to Hampton Inn, Hilton Garden Inn, La Quinta, etc. A step up from this, IMHO, are Embassy Suites, where you get a real bartender. The company used to put us up in those until the company got cheap and downgraded us to the Courtyard. At least the Bistro provided a place for all the colleagues traveling together to sit for a few drinks after work.

 

[xdan0920]

Right. Indeed there is a Bistro, which sells Starbucks coffee.

I can go into any petrol station (gas station) in the U.K. and get a cup of branded coffee from a machine, be it Starbucks, Costa or whatever. It doesn’t make that a Starbucks / Costa etc.

Semantics? Maybe. But a Starbucks coffee shop has a Starbucks logo above the door.

It’s for sure semantics. Meanwh

Views, short walk to MK, contemporary design of the rooms -- some of us actually like that.

For such an ugly, messed up resort, it books up pretty well... too well for some times of year for my taste.

From our room in Aug... panoramic doesn't capture how close the park actually looks... to each his/her own, but I'll take this any day (had to reduce quality a good deal to get it to upload)...

View attachment 343813

I have stayed in almost all the WDW DVC. Location wise, BLT has them all beat. It lags far behind in every other aspect however. Cheap finishes in the rooms and public areas. Garish looking on the outside. Amenities are laughable. Top of the World is terrible. So on and so forth. Location saves it.

 

[plkkak]

Is that true? I thought it was the opposite of that... if you buy (resale) at one of the old properties, you can't use your points at Riviera, not the other way around.

Regardless, that argument only works if people actually pay the cash price. People make the same argument about the dining plan, how it props up artificially high prices at restaurants. In theory that's true, but there aren't enough dining plan guests (or DVC members) to support these things on their own if nobody is actually willing to pay the cash price.


I guess, if you place Skyliner access on par with monorail access. I don't expect people will.

It will be far better than monorail access. I expect this to be clear within 6 months of launch.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Agreed in principal on what you are saying, except for your feelings on what the place is worth. It’s worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Just like selling your house. You may have an idea of what you think it should be worth but in reality all that matters is what others are willing to pay for it. So for this resort if direct access to the 2 parks featuring the newest rides based on SW and GoTG (wildly popular IP) and also bus free access to EPCOT for F&W makes demand sky high than it’s worth whatever people are willing to pay. It may be that you or I don’t think paying a premium for that is worth it, but as long as enough other people do then it will sell.

Laisse Faire doesn’t work in a compound like the reedy creek improvement district.

This isn’t like selling my house next to yours...there are systemic patterns/implications to their price.

Because of the history and design, the “market” doesn’t work on the Adam smith level there. What they choose to push the boundaries too...how far they “reach” has grave longterm consequences to we, the little people, on the experience and the costs.

Even Michael Eisner understood the value of getting two or five or ten visits out of someone instead of charging as much as you can - betting big like a drunk college kid at Mohegan sun playing craps - to score for the street every second.

That core audience with a sense of value parameters is still what sustains that place today - no matter the bluster of all the millennial economists round these parts. It is being eroded longterm.

The Disney old guard management understood that...even though they were primitive.

The current group does not...they pursue an “endgame” that prior Disney management didn’t allow them to look for. It was about decades, then centuries...it was never about the cashout in those terms.

Iger pays it lip service...but I believe his leadership will be exposed for a period of time after he’s gone. You can’t put the ripoff genie back in the bottle. We are treading there.

So when I say “not worth it”...it can’t go back to Econ 002. It’s a public company...but it gets its money from a most unique way.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I have stayed in almost all the WDW DVC. Location wise, BLT has them all beat. It lags far behind in every other aspect however. Cheap finishes in the rooms and public areas. Garish looking on the outside. Amenities are laughable. Top of the World is terrible. So on and so forth. Location saves it.

I find the layout and design...as well as their attempt to stick with the 1960s “modern concrete” look to be a fail and have since I looked at it. My first stay in 2010 was filled with those thoughts. Went again in 2013 and was again “meh”

Probably Won’t go back. I’ve stayed in all DVC’s expect Hawaii after grand cal this summer...most numerous times.

Bay lake has no charm to me...and after a couple of years in WDW hotels...what is the view doing for me?

Fiberglass and concrete...you know?

 

[GoofGoof]

Laisse Faire doesn’t work in a compound like the reedy creek improvement district.

This isn’t like selling my house next to yours...there are systemic patterns/implications to their price.

Because of the history and design, the “market” doesn’t work on the Adam smith level there. What they choose to push the boundaries too...how far they “reach” has grave longterm consequences to we, the little people, on the experience and the costs.

Even Michael Eisner understood the value of getting two or five or ten visits out of someone instead of charging as much as you can - betting big like a drunk college kid at Mohegan sun playing craps - to score for the street every second.

That core audience with a sense of value parameters is still what sustains that place today - no matter the bluster of all the millennial economists round these parts. It is being eroded longterm.

The Disney old guard management understood that...even though they were primitive.

The current group does not...they pursue an “endgame” that prior Disney management didn’t allow them to look for. It was about decades, then centuries...it was never about the cashout in those terms.

Iger pays it lip service...but I believe his leadership will be exposed for a period of time after he’s gone. You can’t put the ripoff genie back in the bottle. We are treading there.

So when I say “not worth it”...it can’t go back to Econ 002. It’s a public company...but it gets its money from a most unique way.

I can’t get into the whole is WDW overpriced debate (not really much of a debate). I tend to agree they are pushing a lot harder than they probably should overall and especially with DVC prices. I was just talking about Riviera in reference to other lodging options at WDW.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I can’t get into the whole is WDW overpriced debate (not really much of a debate). I tend to agree they are pushing a lot harder than they probably should overall and especially with DVC prices. I was just talking about Riviera in reference to other lodging options at WDW.

I agree with you here. We don’t have an “argument”...just probably a difference in our opinion of the overall philosophy.

When I say “too much” or “not worth it”...it’s nwver sticker shock...I take a step back and spend a few minutes recalling past pricing, trends, and where They are from an operational/investment standpoint. Memory and cognitive goes pretty fast...

So it’s not a “nobody will pay for a $750!...I’m not paying!”...it’s actually “you’re gonna go there, huh?” Then the Brain spins out 100 other scenarios/things to watch for...

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree with you here. We don’t have an “argument”...just probably a difference in our opinion of the overall philosophy.

When I say “too much” or “not worth it”...it’s nwver sticker shock...I take a step back and spend a few minutes recalling past pricing, trends, and where They are from an operational/investment standpoint. Memory and cognitive goes pretty fast...

So it’s not a “nobody will pay for a $750!...I’m not paying!”...it’s actually “you’re gonna go there, huh?” Then the Brain spins out 100 other scenarios/things to watch for...

DVC direct prices are out of control. My only point was Riviera is no “less worth it” than buying Copper Creek or BLT points. This is just the next project up. The crazy train left the station quite a few projects back

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

DVC direct prices are out of control. My only point was Riviera is no “less worth it” than buying Copper Creek or BLT points. This is just the next project up. The crazy train left the station quite a few projects back

Agree...and those two places you mentioned aren’t “worth it” either...

No case can be made that something 100 ft away in the same block can be worth 2.5 what you sold the last one. It’s not a rise in real estate when it’s literally the same product...

But I don’t want to get way off course ...not today at least

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

It will be far better than monorail access. I expect this to be clear within 6 months of launch.

By “far better” do you mean more efficient / shorter travel time? Or are you including aesthetic and experience?

DVC direct prices are out of control. My only point was Riviera is no “less worth it” than buying Copper Creek or BLT points. This is just the next project up. The crazy train left the station quite a few projects back

Again, as with any timeshare, it’s “worth it” if you’re going to use it beyond your break-even point. Over time, as prices have gone up, the pool of people who would come out favorably in that calculation may well have gone down (price increases beyond inflation and wage growth, and all). But there are obviously still plenty of people for whom this isn’t crazy at all. They will save money over the long term, given the baseline of how they’d travel without DVC.

 

[Missing20K]

Take a breath- it was tongue in cheek and not 100% literal. Lots and lots and lots?
First, a condo does not a hotel make. AirBnBs have 4+ occupancy all over the place. Hotels? Not so much. It appears you've been in Europe plenty from the sounds of it, so this shouldn't really even be a discussion.

Yes, "you might pay a premium"; but almost always, it is not a normal hotel room, you get a suite or family suite. Apples/Oranges.

More than triple occupancy in Europe is incredibly uncommon.

Lots and lots and lots was also tongue in cheek.

 

[Missing20K]

 

[plkkak]

By “far better” do you mean more efficient / shorter travel time? Or are you including aesthetic and experience?

I think it will be more efficient and a much better overall experience than the monorail. I do love the monorail from a novelty standpoint but if I’m honest it’s not good as a mode of transportation. The monorail will always have a slight edge in terms of the aesthetic but that only compensates for so much. I truly believe the gondola is going to blow people away and set the standard for rider experience and transportation efficiency.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sigh. No wainscoting. While chair rails have taken on an institutional connotation, I do wonder how well all of those Level 5 gyp board walls will handle the abuse of strollers, luggage, wheelchairs and ECVs.

While it is not surprising, the jagged layouts of the rooms is disappointing. It’s a lazy trend, in Disney and in the wider field of residential occupancies, where visual chaos masquerades as detail. It’s a betrayal of the architecture of reassurance. People see all of the corners and assume it must be some intricate puzzle, one that technically makes the space larger but no useful space is added. One of the renderings shows an HVAC bulkhead plowing right through the sleeping room. That isn’t good design and shouldn’t be acceptable in what is supposed to be a higher end space.

 

[GoofGoof]

Again, as with any timeshare, it’s “worth it” if you’re going to use it beyond your break-even point. Over time, as prices have gone up, the pool of people who would come out favorably in that calculation may well have gone down (price increases beyond inflation and wage growth, and all). But there are obviously still plenty of people for whom this isn’t crazy at all. They will save money over the long term, given the baseline of how they’d travel without DVC.

Bay Lake Tower direct points at $230 is pretty crazy

I agree. It’s basic math. The art comes in when deciding what estimates to use for inputs like interest rate, MF % increases and increases in hotel room cash rates. As long as you would have gone anyway and stayed in a deluxe resort it’s easy to calculate your break even. I haven’t run the numbers in a while, but when Poly points first came on the market I remember looking at the numbers and the break even on direct prices was pretty long out and if you financed it was difficult to massage the inputs to come up with a reasonable break even time. IMHO if you can’t break even in 10 to 15 years it is a lot more difficult to justify the purchase even though the contract lasts much longer. Not saying it’s crazy to do, but much less financially sound (is going to WDW ever a financially sound). There eventually will come a point where the direct price is too high to ever break even. We may not be there yet, but getting closer.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Bay Lake Tower direct points at $230 is pretty crazy

I agree. It’s basic math. The art comes in when deciding what estimates to use for inputs like interest rate, MF % increases and increases in hotel room cash rates. As long as you would have gone anyway and stayed in a deluxe resort it’s easy to calculate your break even. I haven’t run the numbers in a while, but when Poly points first came on the market I remember looking at the numbers and the break even on direct prices was pretty long out and if you financed it was difficult to massage the inputs to come up with a reasonable break even time. IMHO if you can’t break even in 10 to 15 years it is a lot more difficult to justify the purchase even though the contract lasts much longer. Not saying it’s crazy to do, but much less financially sound (is going to WDW ever a financially sound). There eventually will come a point where the direct price is too high to ever break even. We may not be there yet, but getting closer.

I don’t disagree on any of this. We broke even well before 10-15 years, but it does depend on your analysis inputs and how accurate they end up being. It is still a money save for the right customer... just not as much money or as many customers, perhaps...