News Disney Riviera Resort announced

[eddie104]

I think it's good we all have different ideas of what a hotel should have to satisfy our personal wants and desires because that is what makes us different. Being respectful of other opinions is not attacking someone you deem less than you but agreeing on some common bases that brings us to an understanding.

 

[TeriofTerror]

And that's the irony of the current resort building trends at WDW and Uni for that part. I can't blame @Bocabear for being disappointed in the way WDW is building, but they're unlikely to risk too much in their budget when the competition down the road can build the Fidget Spinner resort and, if it sells well, why do much more? Aventura is a pretty boring office tower. Why would Disney go all in making a new Faux Polynesia or the like when people keep buying rooms in a downtown office building each night?

I want great themes and rooftop bars.
I admit it; I'm the Veruca Salt of Disney fans.

 

[GoofGoof]

If the concept art shows next to nothing, why create it? To give the client an idea of the "feel" of the project, the overall massing, the human scale of the building, and gets people excited to spend money (whether the client, or the client's client, etc.). I would argue this concept art most certainly shows exterior detail and theming, and you seemed to agree earlier:

I’m no insider but here’s my theory. The concept art was only released because they wanted to discuss in detail the skyway project and it has a stop at what was at that time an undisclosed DVC resort. Remember that BLT was well into construction and Disney still wouldn’t publicly acknowledge it was in fact a new DVC resort. DVC is actively selling Copper Creek. At the time they released the concept art for Riviera they barely started selling there. No way did they want to hype a new resort making it hard to sell the current one. Historically they have not released art for their next project this early into the selling process of the previous resort.

As I said earlier the concept art was intentionally underwhelming because they don’t want to sell this project yet. Concept art is typically an attempt to elicit an emotional response from the viewer and give the flavor of the project. If they wanted to get people excited for the project they would show more whimsical scenes of families at the pool or views into EPCOT from the roof and likely the gondolas. Here’s one piece of concept art from BLT highlighting the monorail and views of fireworks. It’s not a picture of a car driving in the driveway to the resort.

 

[GoofGoof]

Right!! And not all people can go to the "Del" or to New Hampshire or New Orleans or the National Parks, or the numerous other places Disney attempts to "transport" their guests. Not all guests get to be whisked away to a grand Victorian hotel at the turn of the century.

More immersive because of animals and decorations and a "beach" and palms and thatch? In comparison to ornate interiors, period dress and decorations and fixtures? Seems kinda similar to me.

I agree with this point. In a lot of ways it’s easier to make a resort themed to a more exotic location. Many of the details found at a resort like Disney’s Boardwalk or even Old Key West get overlooked. I never got why people felt CR was not well themed.

That being said, I think our main disagreement is that you can draw a conclusion on the success or failure of the theming at this new resort based solely on this concept art (which we both agree is underwhelming). What if the place is filled with ornate interiors, period dress and decorations and fixtures that transport us to the French Riviera during some unspecified time period.

 

[Missing20K]

I’m no insider but here’s my theory. The concept art was only released because they wanted to discuss in detail the skyway project and it has a stop at what was at that time an undisclosed DVC resort. Remember that BLT was well into construction and Disney still wouldn’t publicly acknowledge it was in fact a new DVC resort. DVC is actively selling Copper Creek. At the time they released the concept art for Riviera they barely started selling there. No way did they want to hype a new resort making it hard to sell the current one.

I'm no insider (what's with all the qualifiers everyone feels the need to use) but it seems easy enough for them to have left it at "a brand new DVC resort" and never released any concept art for it.

Also, didn't they sell both BLT and Saratoga Springs at the same time?

Historically they have not released art for their next project this early into the selling process of the previous resort.

So why release any art at all? They could have went all BLT and said, "what new DVC tower? There is no construction going on over there. Please enjoy a cupcake dance party!"

As I said earlier the concept art was intentionally underwhelming because they don’t want to sell this project yet.

I just can't see any reason they would have released concept art in an attempt to "undersell" the project. When has Disney ever "undersold" an product? Ever?

It’s not a picture of a car driving in the driveway to the resort.

But you said this...

I doubt this will be as iconic as Wilderness Lodge or Polynesian but I do think the tower will still look impressive when approaching by car.

So if you think it will look impressive, wouldn't they want the concept art to show as such? As I said earlier...

I'm confused. Is the look of a hotel when approaching by car important or not?

That being said, I think our main disagreement is that you can draw a conclusion on the success or failure of the theming at this new resort based solely on this concept art (which we both agree is underwhelming). What if the place is filled with ornate interiors, period dress and decorations and fixtures that transport us to the French Riviera during some unspecified time period.

I'm not drawing a final conclusion on the success or failure of the theming based on the concept art. I'm drawing a final conclusion of the success or failure of the concept art at evoking the emotions necessary for the resort up to the previous standards Disney set for itself. I am of the belief (oh these darn qualifiers), that this concept art fails in conveying the evocative nature of successfully themed Disney resorts. It fails, imo (uhg), because the concept art shows a fairly pedestrian building with a few nods to a vaguely "French Riviera" theme. Again, I see no reason for Disney to "undersell" the product.

The bolded items would help. I can admit that. I'm not holding out hope though.

We do agree this art is underwhelming. We disagree in that I feel this is mostly what we are getting from an exterior point of view. Any additional theming will just be fancy icing on an otherwise dry and tasteless cake.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm no insider (what's with all the qualifiers everyone feels the need to use) but it seems easy enough for them to have left it at "a brand new DVC resort" and never released any concept art for it.

Also, didn't they sell both BLT and Saratoga Springs at the same time?


So why release any art at all? They could have went all BLT and said, "what new DVC tower? There is no construction going on over there. Please enjoy a cupcake dance party!"

I just can't see any reason they would have released concept art in an attempt to "undersell" the project. When has Disney ever "undersold" an product? Ever?

But you said this...

So if you think it will look impressive, wouldn't they want the concept art to show as such? As I said earlier...




I'm not drawing a final conclusion on the success or failure of the theming based on the concept art. I'm drawing a final conclusion of the success or failure of the concept art at evoking the emotions necessary for the resort up to the previous standards Disney set for itself. I am of the belief (oh these darn qualifiers), that this concept art fails in conveying the evocative nature of successfully themed Disney resorts. It fails, imo (uhg), because the concept art shows a fairly pedestrian building with a few nods to a vaguely "French Riviera" theme. Again, I see no reason for Disney to "undersell" the product.

The bolded items would help. I can admit that. I'm not holding out hope though.

We do agree this art is underwhelming. We disagree in that I feel this is mostly what we are getting from an exterior point of view. Any additional theming will just be fancy icing on an otherwise dry and tasteless cake.

I only put the qualifier to avoid someone later challenging how I know what the intent of the concept art was. It’s my fan theory based on past history of DVC and the facts as we know them not some inside info from someone at Disney. I could be completely wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time

As far as the concept art goes I think we both agree it’s underwhelming. Where we will have to agree to disagree is whether the concept art is intentionally vague or a best effort to sell the resort. To be clear I don’t think the art is intended to make the project look bad it’s just vague and emotionless. It gives out just enough info for people to know there would be a DVC resort there but gives us nothing about the actual theme or the feel or vibe of the resort. Disney knows how to do concept art to elicit an emotional response and they are good at selling DVC and this does neither. We already know that this resort will feature a rooftop lounge (with views into EPCOT), at least 1 pool area (with nice views out over the lake) and a direct connection to the skyway. If they were making their best effort to sell the resort with concept art they could/would have featured these elements.

As far as DVC projects go there have been several periods of overlapping sales. SSR is huge and took a really long time to sell so it did overlap several other resorts including BLT and AKV. It actually opened in several phases over 4 or 5 years vs one opening. The initial phase opened in 2004. BLT was formally announced by Disney in fall 2008 at the same time as the final phase of SSR which was the treehouse villas. The formal announcement of BLT was laughable and the worst kept secret but part of the delay in announcing was the desire to not hurt sales at SSR and AK. Copper Creek sales started March 2017 and the Riviera concept art dropped at D23 about four months later. It was really early into sales.

I will fully admit that my feeling that the theming of this resort will be better than some of you guys are expecting is based mostly on past history and a little bit of pixie dust. When has Disney built a DVC or deluxe resort without an elaborate theme and backstory? I can’t think of any. The shopping mall even has an elaborate backstory. I doubt the final project will just be the equivalent of a Holiday Inn on International Drive (said by someone earlier in one of these threads). I doubt they will just leave it at a few vague nods to French Riviera.

 

[nickys]

I'm no insider (what's with all the qualifiers everyone feels the need to use) but it seems easy enough for them to have left it at "a brand new DVC resort" and never released any concept art for it.

Also, didn't they sell both BLT and Saratoga Springs at the same time?


So why release any art at all? They could have went all BLT and said, "what new DVC tower? There is no construction going on over there. Please enjoy a cupcake dance party!"

I just can't see any reason they would have released concept art in an attempt to "undersell" the project. When has Disney ever "undersold" an product? Ever?

But you said this...

So if you think it will look impressive, wouldn't they want the concept art to show as such? As I said earlier...




I'm not drawing a final conclusion on the success or failure of the theming based on the concept art. I'm drawing a final conclusion of the success or failure of the concept art at evoking the emotions necessary for the resort up to the previous standards Disney set for itself. I am of the belief (oh these darn qualifiers), that this concept art fails in conveying the evocative nature of successfully themed Disney resorts. It fails, imo (uhg), because the concept art shows a fairly pedestrian building with a few nods to a vaguely "French Riviera" theme. Again, I see no reason for Disney to "undersell" the product.

The bolded items would help. I can admit that. I'm not holding out hope though.

We do agree this art is underwhelming. We disagree in that I feel this is mostly what we are getting from an exterior point of view. Any additional theming will just be fancy icing on an otherwise dry and tasteless cake.

The reason for all your questions is to do with not impacting on sales of CCV. The last thing they need is for CCV sales to stall like Aualani has stalled.

They had to say something because the gondola map had to show the station at Riviera. They could hardly pretend this wasn’t happening.... (and yes, I know they did for BLT but maybe they realised how stupid that was).

And BLT sales started in 2010. That accounted for 72% of sales that year. The next year was when SSR and AKV sales started taking off, with BLT still selling. There will always be some overlap, but for a year at least BLT was out on it’s own.

 

[GoofGoof]

The reason for all your questions is to do with not impacting on sales of CCV. The last thing they need is for CCV sales to stall like Aualani has stalled.

They had to say something because the gondola map had to show the station at Riviera. They could hardly pretend this wasn’t happening.... (and yes, I know they did for BLT but maybe they realised how stupid that was).

And BLT sales started in 2010. That accounted for 72% of sales that year. The next year was when SSR and AKV sales started taking off, with BLT still selling. There will always be some overlap, but for a year at least BLT was out on it’s own.

If this concept art was actually a best effort to sell this resort and get people excited for it then I’m assuming there’s an artist looking for a new job right now

 

[Missing20K]

Just so I understand both of you, as it seems you're on the same page.

I only put the qualifier to avoid someone later challenging how I know what the intent of the concept art was. It’s my fan theory based on past history of DVC and the facts as we know them not some inside info from someone at Disney. I could be completely wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time

As far as the concept art goes I think we both agree it’s underwhelming. Where we will have to agree to disagree is whether the concept art is intentionally vague or a best effort to sell the resort. To be clear I don’t think the art is intended to make the project look bad it’s just vague and emotionless. It gives out just enough info for people to know there would be a DVC resort there but gives us nothing about the actual theme or the feel or vibe of the resort. Disney knows how to do concept art to elicit an emotional response and they are good at selling DVC and this does neither. We already know that this resort will feature a rooftop lounge (with views into EPCOT), at least 1 pool area (with nice views out over the lake) and a direct connection to the skyway. If they were making their best effort to sell the resort with concept art they could/would have featured these elements.

As far as DVC projects go there have been several periods of overlapping sales. SSR is huge and took a really long time to sell so it did overlap several other resorts including BLT and AKV. It actually opened in several phases over 4 or 5 years vs one opening. The initial phase opened in 2004. BLT was formally announced by Disney in fall 2008 at the same time as the final phase of SSR which was the treehouse villas. The formal announcement of BLT was laughable and the worst kept secret but part of the delay in announcing was the desire to not hurt sales at SSR and AK. Copper Creek sales started March 2017 and the Riviera concept art dropped at D23 about four months later. It was really early into sales.

I will fully admit that my feeling that the theming of this resort will be better than some of you guys are expecting is based mostly on past history and a little bit of pixie dust. When has Disney built a DVC or deluxe resort without an elaborate theme and backstory? I can’t think of any. The shopping mall even has an elaborate backstory. I doubt the final project will just be the equivalent of a Holiday Inn on International Drive (said by someone earlier in one of these threads). I doubt they will just leave it at a few vague nods to French Riviera.

The reason for all your questions is to do with not impacting on sales of CCV. The last thing they need is for CCV sales to stall like Aualani has stalled.

They had to say something because the gondola map had to show the station at Riviera. They could hardly pretend this wasn’t happening.... (and yes, I know they did for BLT but maybe they realised how stupid that was).

And BLT sales started in 2010. That accounted for 72% of sales that year. The next year was when SSR and AKV sales started taking off, with BLT still selling. There will always be some overlap, but for a year at least BLT was out on it’s own.

I suppose I just can't see a reason to release concept art only to keep people "off the scent", so they don't delay purchase of DVC. Why purposefully create artwork that undersells the resort? As I've said previously, when has Disney ever undersold anything, ever?? They announce Dance Parties and Playgrounds and release concept art that never even gets built. Announce a Main St. Theater that gets axed. This is not a company known for underselling and over-delivering for at least the past 25 years.

So they only released the art because there is to be a station of the Skyliner there? Again, why not just say it's a future DVC resort, instead of releasing the name, theme and concept art? If they are so concerned about stalling CCV sales, I would surmise the last thing they want potential DVCers to think is that they can just wait for the next resort instead of "Buy Now!!"

Wouldn't releasing said artwork even create the opportunity for a potential DVC buyer to say, "well what's this I hear about a new DVC tower? Maybe I should just wait to purchase points at that resort. I hate the "camping" theme, but I would definitely like a Euro Med theme with a new transportation option."

The answer probably lies with internal accounting numbers of DVC purchases. I've heard anecdotally Disney has increased the number of ROFR, and if they are releasing concept art (regardless of how meh it is) this early in the process, my gut says the points are selling pretty quickly.

If this concept art was actually a best effort to sell this resort and get people excited for it then I’m assuming there’s an artist looking for a new job right now

I mean I guess it could just be a poor and underdeveloped piece of concept art, I won't discount that theory. They have released worse concept art in the past, so I can't put it past them. The concept art coming out of WDI seems incredibly inconsistent.

As an aside, only architects, designers, and Disney fans could have such an in-depth discussion about a piece of concept art.

 

[GoofGoof]

So they only released the art because there is to be a station of the Skyliner there? Again, why not just say it's a future DVC resort, instead of releasing the name, theme and concept art?

Isn’t this exactly what they did? They gave us a name and a far away look at a hotel tower. Where in that concept art are they showing the actual theme of the resort? They didn’t even tell us which Riviera the resort would be based on. There was a lengthy debate here that the Mexican Riviera fit better next to Caribbean beach. It wasn’t until this summers DVC video release that they even confirmed it was a European theme. About all we got was it would be a tower vs a cluster of smaller buildings and that there would be a rooftop lounge and direct access to the skyliner.

Copper Creek is selling well. They are on pace to sell out by next summer. I would expect Riviera to go on sale relatively soon. When we get close to the sales start date then we should get tons of details and likely new concept art that actually shows us something. Keep in mind this concept art was released several months after Copper Creek sales began and before major construction started.

 

[GoofGoof]

As an aside, only architects, designers, and Disney fans could have such an in-depth discussion about a piece of concept art.

That’s why I love this place. It’s full of people as insane as I am

 

[Missing20K]

Isn’t this exactly what they did? They gave us a name and a far away look at a hotel tower. Where in that concept art are they showing the actual theme of the resort?

Not sure, you said this previously.

The concept art has similar elements like the wrought iron oven the windows/balconies and some of the rounded structures on the roof.

So there seems to be enough to glean that from the artwork, no?

They didn’t even tell us which Riviera the resort would be based on. There was a lengthy debate here that the Mexican Riviera fit better next to Caribbean beach. It wasn’t until this summers DVC video release that they even confirmed it was a European theme.

If you look at that concept art and come away with "Mexican Riviera" then we are way farther apart in this discussion than I think we are.

About all we got was it would be a tower vs a cluster of smaller buildings and that there would be a rooftop lounge and direct access to the skyliner.

Could have said all that anyway without releasing artwork. There is a reason for releasing artwork. I won't pretend to know why. But as I've addressed to you previously, twice I think, give me a time in which Disney has purposefully undersold anything.

Copper Creek is selling well. They are on pace to sell out by next summer. I would expect Riviera to go on sale relatively soon. When we get close to the sales start date then we should get tons of details and likely new concept art that actually shows us something. Keep in mind this concept art was released several months after Copper Creek sales began and before major construction started.

So if they are selling well and on pace to be sold out by next summer, you're entire argument for releasing sub-par artwork in order not to cannibalize CCV sales goes right out the window. If anything quite the opposite. Perhaps they released sub-par artwork (maybe due to a tight time frame) in order to drum up sales for the new DVC because the CCV was selling so well? You can't have both. They release crap artwork cause they are afraid of inhibiting current CCV sales. Or, they release crap artwork cause that's what they designed and it's all they have at the moment.

Will we see more artwork going forward? Of course. They haven't depicted any of the lobby, pool, or guest rooms. I just don't get my hopes up that any upcoming artwork will show the overall form of the building and it's larger details as anything other than what we have already seen. As I keep saying, Disney is not exactly known for underselling their product.

 

[nickys]

So if they are selling well and on pace to be sold out by next summer, you're entire argument for releasing sub-par artwork in order not to cannibalize CCV sales goes right out the window. If anything quite the opposite. Perhaps they released sub-par artwork (maybe due to a tight time frame) in order to drum up sales for the new DVC because the CCV was selling so well? You can't have both. They release crap artwork cause they are afraid of inhibiting current CCV sales. Or, they release crap artwork cause that's what they designed and it's all they have at the moment.

.

I don’t understand your argument here. This is my line of reasoning, which I think is similar to @GoofGoof ‘s.

- The concept art was released just after CCV went on sale.

- They had no idea at the point of producing the concept art how sales were going to go.

- The last thing they would want is to scupper sales of CCV.

Therefore they release something that gives an impresssion of what it will look like, so as not to mislead people. But nothing that makes people go “oooh, look at that, maybe we should wait and see what this is like before we buy into DVC”.

 

[Missing20K]

I don’t understand your argument here. This is my line of reasoning, which I think is similar to @GoofGoof ‘s.

- The concept art was released just after CCV went on sale.

- They had no idea at the point of producing the concept art how sales were going to go.

- The last thing they would want is to scupper sales of CCV.

Therefore they release something that gives an impresssion of what it will look like, so as not to mislead people. But nothing that makes people go “oooh, look at that, maybe we should wait and see what this is like before we buy into DVC”.

I've grown weary of this (or maybe of drawing stair sections, I'm not sure which), so.....I had a whole thing typed to try and continue but I'm over it. Maybe they will release incredible mind-blowing artwork that shows the new tower in all it's splendid glory, full of finials and ballustrades and columns and intricate ironwork. I'm not going to lose sleep over it though.

Hey, let's wait a year and see what it looks like.

 

[WDWtraveler]

Photo update as of Friday, September 28, 2018. Tower construction update photo.

A close-up of the restaurant / lounge at the top of the Riviera resort. The window openings are oriented to view both Hollywood Studios and Epcot fireworks, and the view from the right side will overlook Town Center at the Caribbean Beach Resort.

 

[GoofGoof]

Not sure, you said this previously.

In multiple posts I have said the art gives us very little insight into the actual theme.

So there seems to be enough to glean that from the artwork, no?

If you zoom in you can make out some details that definitely seem to be based on “French Riviera” hotels. There were pictures posted a few pages back of examples.

If you look at that concept art and come away with "Mexican Riviera" then we are way farther apart in this discussion than I think we are.

I was firmly in the French Riviera camp but there were some others who thought Mexico based on being near the “Caribbean”. I think someone even posted the dictionary definition of Riviera. It may have been another thread since there are several on this resort.

Could have said all that anyway without releasing artwork. There is a reason for releasing artwork. I won't pretend to know why. But as I've addressed to you previously, twice I think, give me a time in which Disney has purposefully undersold anything.

I’ve already stated my theory on why they released the art. With all of the recent DVC resorts Disney has been very careful not to oversell the next resort before the current one is mostly sold out. It’s not about underselling something. That concept art is not intended to sell anything. Do you really think that uninspiring piece of art is their best attempt sell this resort? In the history of DVC they have always done a pretty great job of selling the resorts (look at the price per point and they still sell). Look at the concept art released for various other DVC projects and tell me you still think this one is their best effort.

So if they are selling well and on pace to be sold out by next summer, you're entire argument for releasing sub-par artwork in order not to cannibalize CCV sales goes right out the window. If anything quite the opposite. Perhaps they released sub-par artwork (maybe due to a tight time frame) in order to drum up sales for the new DVC because the CCV was selling so well? You can't have both. They release crap artwork cause they are afraid of inhibiting current CCV sales. Or, they release crap artwork cause that's what they designed and it's all they have at the moment.

Will we see more artwork going forward? Of course. They haven't depicted any of the lobby, pool, or guest rooms. I just don't get my hopes up that any upcoming artwork will show the overall form of the building and it's larger details as anything other than what we have already seen. As I keep saying, Disney is not exactly known for underselling their product.

That theory would maybe fly if the art was released today. The concept art was released at D23 in July 2017 (15 months ago). At that time Copper Creek was less than 3 months into sales. Per DVCNews (which actually tracks monthly sales) by the end of July 2017 Copper Creek had sold about 5% of their total points.

There’s no point in going back and forth on this anymore. If you want to believe that the concept art is their best effort to sell the resort because “when have they ever undersold anything?”, that’s your prerogative. I’ll stick by my theory. I look forward to seeing more details on this resort and also finding more details on the specific theme.

 

[GoofGoof]

I've grown weary of this (or maybe of drawing stair sections, I'm not sure which), so.....I had a whole thing typed to try and continue but I'm over it. Maybe they will release incredible mind-blowing artwork that shows the new tower in all it's splendid glory, full of finials and ballustrades and columns and intricate ironwork. I'm not going to lose sleep over it though.

Hey, let's wait a year and see what it looks like.

I think we’ll get a lot more info in less than a year. Maybe a few months away.

 

[Lensman]

From bioreconstruct today:

 

[Lensman]

And more from bioreconstruct today:

 

[Jambo Joe]

Poly reeks of 1970s nostalgia with a price point it by no means deserves given it's open campus style and the fact that it resembles a tacky motel. Royal Pacific offers a similar price point but with a much more luxury feel. Don't get me wrong, I think some of the deluxes at WDW deserve the price point. Poly gets by on rose-colored nostalgia and the fact that it's across the lake from MK.

I agree-it’s actually a little corny. If Disney were to build it now it would look far more like Aulani. I am not being critical if someone likes it - that’s why we have choices.

We stayed at Tuvalu last year and I requested a transfer to AKL after the first night. Really didn’t like the series of small buildings. The rooms themselves though are great once you are in the room.