Disney Purists vs. Disney Traditionalists

[JustinTheClaw]

To quote Kevin Clash and Jim Henson (a genius who is, in my mind, on par with Walt Disney) -
"I've found that children keep their imaginations a lot longer than parents think they do. Parents are concerned that if kids see that a person operates the muppet, an illusion will be shattered. But I think kids see us just as the people who carry their friends around."

An excellent point, and one that chellenges my theory imensely; especially seeing as how I too admire Jim Henson every bit as much as Walt Disney

 

[JustinTheClaw]

Ummmm..... Roy played a much more important role than I am sure you are willing to concede. And to that, even back to the days of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, the investors (which can be a much bigger pain than shareholders) monitored every move Walt made, forcing him to make certain changes, and making him show the movie off to them in an unfinished version, against Walt's wishes... He still had people to appease, but I guess you never learned that in your history piece....

Okay then, I guess I should replace the name "Walt" with "the Disneys" then. I suppose it's just natural to attribute everything to Walt, seeing as how it is his name on everything; but you're right, Roy was there every step of the way, basically trying to keep his brother's ideas afloat while keeping the company's head above water.

 

[JustinTheClaw]

Exactly... In addition... The whole "what would Walt do" mess has nothing to do with reality... it's 100% a self-centered extrapolation of bad logic and little or no understanding of what really happens in business.

As usual it has to be all or nothing with you.

 

[JustinTheClaw]

Those folks who are familiar with the product, but have no comprehension of it, which I am sad to say, you are among their ranks.

I fail to see how I have no comprehension of an Attraction I have watched be built, have followed its origins since I first heard about it, and have ridden 25 times (6 after dark, which if you have the option and haven't done it, I highly recommend it).

 

[Enderikari]

I fail to see how I have no comprehension of an Attraction I have watched be built, have followed its origins since I first heard about it, and have ridden 25 times (6 after dark, which if you have the option and haven't done it, I highly recommend it).

Exactly my point... You know the product, are familiar with it, have ridden it, and watched, as an outsider, it being built. Knowing the who's and the how's does not help one to understand the Why's. There are thousands of factors that you do not see in the simple "watching it getting built" phase... Comprehension does not come from your meager experience with the product, even if you are familiar with it...

To better give a picture, I am going to quote an earlier analogy I made, which is parallel to the situation... Enjoy your cake.

Chocolate Cake - An Opinion
Let's say there's this guy, and every week, for the past 5 years, he has gone to this bakery, let's call it Roy's Bake Shop on Wednesday, because he is a fan of their chocolate cake. And every Wednesday, for 5 years, he has bought a piece of chocolate cake, and eaten it on the spot. He raves to all of his friends, relatives and co-workers about Roy's delicious chocolate cake, and really expresses himself as an expert of Roy's chocolate cake.
Of course, he doesn't actually have the recipe (he only knows a few of the ingredients) for Roy's Chocolate Cake, and really doesn't have the acumen to reproduce it in the kitchen anyway; but this guy is a huge fan of Roy's Chocolate Cake.
Now, this guy has become such a fan of Roy's Chocolate Cake, that he starts suggesting things to Roy to add to the chocolate cake, not really knowing the original ingredients in the first place. The suggestions aren't really taken to heart by Roy in the baking of his chocolate cake; knowing that the guy isn't a baker by trade. This only midly upsets the guy, but he shrugs his shoulders, and still continues to buy the chocolate cake that he has loved for many years. However, this guy has been eating Roy's Chocolate Cake for so many years, the cake has begun, not only to taste plain to him, but also is no longer (in the eyes of this guy) known as Roy's Chocolate Cake, but instead he thinks of it as "That Guy's Chocolate Cake."
Unfortunately, even the perceived ownership that that guy has towards the cake doesn't make it his cake, and one day, for whatever reason, Roy decides to change the recipe, adding and subtracting ingredients to produce what Roy thinks to be a better cake, after all, it is his cake.
That Wednesday, this guy walks into Roy's Bake Shop, and orders the chocolate cake. As he sits down to enjoy the meal he has been expecting (even though the cake has begun to taste plain to him, due to his familiarity with the cake), he bites into the cake and realizes that the cake has noticeably changed. He begins this tirade, leaving the store in a rage. For the rest of his days, he tells all of his friends, co-workers, and family that Roy's Chocolate Cake really went down hill, and his friends smile and nod, because they, as a group, now go every Wednesday to Roy's Bake Shop, to enjoy their chocolate cake.

 

[Enderikari]

Okay then, I guess I should replace the name "Walt" with "the Disneys" then. I suppose it's just natural to attribute everything to Walt, seeing as how it is his name on everything; but you're right, Roy was there every step of the way, basically trying to keep his brother's ideas afloat while keeping the company's head above water.

Wow.... thats the sweetness and light version of the story... Real life shows the fights and distancing that Roy and Walt had, mainly concerning Walt's insistence on making a profit-horse out of his WED. A world where Walt couldn't come up with the money to put plants in Disneyland, so he faked it with cheap placards. Where the turnstiles into Disneyland were paved with dirt, and gas-leaks shut down Fantasyland every other week.
Where Walt, desperate for money Roy wouldn't give him, begged outside companies to build advertisements for their products because Walt was desperate for things to go into Tomorrowland...
so on... so forth

 

[wannab@dis]

This is the sort of childishness to which I am referring. You couldn't have stated your case in a respectful way, as speck76 had a few posts before you. You felt it necessary to make fun of me. That is what I call an attack.

What you seem to be trying to tell me is that my opinion doesn't matter and I have no logical right to have it. Just because a million people think one thing and one person thinks otherwise doesn't make that person wrong. A million people thought Disneyland was going to be a huge failure and never make it through its first year, Walt thought it would be a huge success and stand and evolve for generations to come. Who was right?

So now you're comparing yourself to Walt? That you are the only person that really knows how things SHOULD be? Wow, that ego of yours is truly amazing.

I'm not saying that that makes your opinion wrong. I agree that the vast majority of people don't care, but I still believe that that is no reason to ignore it. Everyone keeps talking about money this and money that. Disney has money. On a bad year Disney still makes a profit. During the year or so following September 11, attendance was at an all-time low, but Disney still made money. So they spend $105 million or $110 million to complete the project instead of $100 million and leave it partially unfinished. I doubt a few million dollars will effect Disney much.

I know I won't win, nor am I trying to. If Disney completes the mountain someday I will be very pleased, but it probably won't happen; at least not for a while. I used it as an example of how the Imagineers are being forced to make sacrifices (a completed mountain vs. an amazingly themed and culturally rich queue) where at one point in history they would have been expanding. Apparently I hit a nerve in the audience and the whole thing was blown out of proportion and rode it - always looking for a good debate, which, barring some childishness, I believe I found. I am happy about the choice that the Imagineers made. I wish it hadn't have been a choice.

:lol: The childishness was last night.

My point has been simple and it's in concurrance with the project managers. The backside of the mountain is not an issue. Just because you feel it's a problem doesn't change the fact that it will still be there next week or next month. I don't see it as a sacrifice... it's good management of resources by one of the best imagineers the company has ever had.

What I find childish (beyond last nights escapade) is the armchair imagineers that think they can do things better who really have no idea about the project other than what they read on forums. In addition, they feel it's necessary to make claims that Disney makes enough money that they should waste money on inane ideas.

 

[Ariellen]

However, there is one element that Disney himself did that is being lost. He paid close attention to artistic details. Everything did not look or feel real. But, he had a knack for finding elements that were important to jog that childhood imagination. It had to feel right, not necessarily look or be accurate. That, in my opinion, is what the Disney success was based on.

....

There is a balance between art and marketable business, and a tip too far one way OR THE OTHER is bad.

WELL SAID. I think that the Disney Company of today needs to think "Is this idea creative and will the public respond, and can we do the best we can to give them the best experience possible?" Some people phrase that "What would Walt do?"...not everyone does. I think it's fine to ask that when thinking in some issues...not necessarily "is this exactly what Walt would do and the way that he would do it?" because no one can know that for sure, of course, and as several people remarked earlier, business tactics and the corporate world...and the Disney Company...have changed drastically since 1966. Even if any of us COULD know exactly what Walt's ideas were, they may not all be possible, at least in the 'earliest' form. Not all of his ideas WERE possible exactly has he originally planned...things were changed, others were scrapped...not necessarily because they were BAD ideas, but ones that could not be done or would be hurtful to the financial side of the Company.

As mentioned by posters before, that company very much needed ROY too! The Disney Company succeeded because Walt and Roy (and many of the people who worked with them) could find the BALANCE between art and business...of course there was regard for the bottom line, but the "other bottom line" was QUALITY. So maybe the question shouldn't be 'what would Walt do?' but something more along the lines of the CONCEPTS that Walt and Roy exemplified..."What's the story we want to tell? How can we tell it the best way possible, and how can we actually pull this off, budget-wise?" There's always been, and always should be, a give-and-take. It's impossible and impractical to base every future decision on the "letter of the 'law' of what the Disney brothers did," but some of the SPIRIT of what they did is indeed important. We can't know exactly how they'd do things if they lived in today's world, and many more people than just the two of them helped to work to make the films and parks memorable and often successful, but we can know that their company has been a successful business because of creativity and storytelling, and that is a Legacy that can and should be carried on.

I don't think the back of EE looks that bad, really; the color of the building seems to fit with the non-snow-covered parts of the mountain. Who mentioned the quote about the Muppets and the people who "carry the children's friends around"? I thought that said everything really well. Many kids probably won't even be old enough to realize that the building is where the ride actually happens...and I don't think the sight of the back of it is as likely to make a lasting impression as seeing it from inside the park in all its glory. It wasn't open when I finished my CP, but the exterior was complete, and I was blown away even having seen it from the DAK parking lot where the sight of the building didn't even register with me. If the building had a big "THE TRACK AND EFFECTS ARE IN HERE!!!" signt, then I'd think the show was being compromised, but I'm quite OK with the appearance of EE as it is now. I think it looks the way it should and don't feel the lack of a perfectly concealed back detracts from the show.

 

[JustinTheClaw]

So now you're comparing yourself to Walt? That you are the only person that really knows how things SHOULD be? Wow, that ego of yours is truly amazing.

Reading way too much into what I say as always, and coming to the wrong conclusions...I have an early day tomorrow and don't really have time to get into this right now. Maybe some other time.

 

[wannab@dis]

Reading way too much into what I say as always, and coming to the wrong conclusions...I have an early day tomorrow and don't really have time to get into this right now. Maybe some other time.

Well, it's not hard to figure out what you said... Basically you have said multiple times that you KNOW most people consider EE not be a big deal, but that YOU think it's a problem. Then you make the following statement. You can try to back off the statement because you got called out, but the intention of the statement was clear. :wave:

What you seem to be trying to tell me is that my opinion doesn't matter and I have no logical right to have it. Just because a million people think one thing and one person thinks otherwise doesn't make that person wrong. A million people thought Disneyland was going to be a huge failure and never make it through its first year, Walt thought it would be a huge success and stand and evolve for generations to come. Who was right?

 

[Enderikari]

Well, it's not hard to figure out what you said... Basically you have said multiple times that you KNOW most people consider EE not be a big deal, but that YOU think it's a problem. Then you make the following statement. You can try to back off the statement because you got called out, but the intention of the statement was clear. :wave:

I also noticed how he (not-so) skillfully (re: ignored) my posts

 

[JustinTheClaw]

I also noticed how he (not-so) skillfully (re: ignored) my posts

(I'm back. Sleep is not coming to me...maybe staring at a computer screen will help)

I'm sorry. I don't believe I was ignoring you, or if I was it certainly was not intentional. I have just grown accustomed to the same old person or people responding to my posts and I subconsciously bypass the rest. I will go back and reread what I have missed.

 

[CommandoDisney]

wow... you guys do realize what youre arguing about right? drinks all around!

 

[JustinTheClaw]

...And I am glad that I did. Your analogy was really interesting, and I suppose it in part describes my situation. Many people have said that once you work for Disney, your perception of the real world will never be the same (or something like that). I suppose that may be what's happening to me.

It's kind of like the Matrix. The original Matrix was designed to be a perfect world, but the people wouldn't accept it. They kept looking for the flaws. The main difference is I am not living in a perfect world, but I believe it to be. When I see the flaws I want to fix them and I become frustrated when I cannot. (In case some of you haven't guessed, I do have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.)

As far as debating is concerned, I never reject another person's views, but I need to feel as though my views are likewise not being rejected. I have gotten very little of that here. It seems to be mostly "you can't have it your way, so give up." I may not think I am Walt (as WannaB@Dis would imply), but we do share a certain desire to make everything better. Walt was always looking at improving things others thought were good enough. I do that too. I think many of these "armchair Imagineers" as WannaB@Dis so affectionately calls them (note the drip of sarcasm) may be the next real Imagineers. People who dream big are always on Disney's radar. They love people who want to change the world. Most Imagineers had no idea what they were getting into when they joined/were recruited into the organization. Which is understandable. There is no other organization like it. They have to learn about budgets and restrictions and what is feasable as they go along.

So as long as I am already typing, I may as well respond to:

Well, it's not hard to figure out what you said... Basically you have said multiple times that you KNOW most people consider EE not be a big deal, but that YOU think it's a problem. Then you make the following statement. You can try to back off the statement because you got called out, but the intention of the statement was clear.

So yes, maybe I was comparing myself to Walt, in the context of that particular situation. But who was Walt, really? Walt was an ordinary man with extraordinary ideas who did whatever he could to share them with everyone. So maybe I have more in common with Walt than I originally thought before WannaB@Dis so kindly pointed it out (drip).

All I need now is a little more ambition, a lot of free time, and a brother who's willing to mortgage everything to help me make my dreams a reality!

 

[JustinTheClaw]

wow... you guys do realize what youre arguing about right? drinks all around!

Sounds good! I'll have a three wise men! (That'll put me to sleep!)

 

[speck76]

no offense Justin....but...I think a relationship would do you wonders....

 

[JustinTheClaw]

no offense Justin....but...I think a relationship would do you wonders....

Oh, and I completely forgot about the people who make assumptions about me, simply based on completely unrelated topics of conversation. Thank you for reminding me!

For the record, I recently proposed to my girlfriend of five years (Leave-A-Legacy location E-4-6-11-11-4). So thank you for the offer, but I don't think it would work between us .

 

[speck76]

Oh, and I completely forgot about the people who make assumptions about me, simply based on completely unrelated topics of conversation. Thank you for reminding me!

For the record, I recently proposed to my girlfriend of five years (Leave-A-Legacy location E-4-6-11-11-4). So thank you for the offer, but I don't think it would work between us .

don't flatter yourself.....

 

[JustinTheClaw]

don't flatter yourself.....

:kiss::lol:

 

[Enderikari]

I think many of these "armchair Imagineers" as WannaB@Dis so affectionately calls them (note the drip of sarcasm) may be the next real Imagineers. People who dream big are always on Disney's radar. They love people who want to change the world. Most Imagineers had no idea what they were getting into when they joined/were recruited into the organization. Which is understandable. There is no other organization like it. They have to learn about budgets and restrictions and what is feasable as they go along.

Have you ever met any real Imagineers? Really met them, not just gone to see them speak at a DLC event? Ever sat them down and talked with them about what their job really is? You have a very fanciful way of looking at both the world and the World, but, it is just that, fantasy... And not that fun, Disney Fantasy that I go to the parks for, or preserve the magical guest experience for, but the kind of fantasy that is defined by having no basis in reality.

If there is going to be one complaint about the current group of Imagineers (and I have voiced this to one of them, over drinks), is that a majority of them get so caught up in the details, they can't see the forest for the trees, or even the trees for the leaves. They aren't dreaming big, they are putting stickers on Everest's queue. They are painting with the tiniest brushes to make the fantasy seem real, they forget that the Magic Kingdom (the most visited theme park in the world) was painted with a much wider brush... making the fantasy seem.... more fanciful. They don't learn about budgets as they go along, they adhere to them throughout their career, a project does not get started without a proposed budget... But that budget is going to tiny things, bike trails in cement, predator/prey relationships in quick service resteraunts.
The next Imagineers aren't the ones who are sitting on Disney-nerd boards posting about bringing back Dreamfinder, digging up Horizons, or covering the backstage of Everest. They are the ones who are toiling away making projects that are conceivable, both under budget concerns and make sense to add to a Disney theme park.

EDIT - But I digress the situation, I can see now you are too set in your ways (re: stubborn). People always want to canonize Walt as some kind of master entertainer, who cared only about Joy and Happiness, with little birdies flying around his head... He was in it for the money too. Books you pull off of the learning center shelves may not portray it that way, but the WDC has always been it the entertainment business to make money... Even Walt