Disney Purists vs. Disney Traditionalists

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
Enderikari said:
Congrats... You just became the next General Grizz... Can we next expect your full trip report entitled, "Chipped Paint in Semi-Show Locations?"
I was about to say the same thing... appears the bear, or at least his claw, is back.

I'm just going to leave this alone since it's apparent you can't affect the views of extremists. This is the norm for threads such as this... if you really pay attention, you'll see that the whole discussion should be about "Disney Extremists" -- those people who have NO clue except what THEY want and anything else is wrong. General Grizz was the epitome and now he's got a successor. Or, has he returned? :hurl:
 

Expo_Seeker40

Well-Known Member
One thing I don't understand are those who think Disney is 99.9% perfect or more!!! It is a theme park business, there will always be some chipped paint, trash, etc etc etc. They no doubt have hire standards than many other theme parks and how they are run.

I am glad enough to visit WDW once a year. I do NOT go looking around for chipped paint, etc etc. The only thing quite noticeable I ever saw was the TTA paint condition and other poor condition of buildings in Tomorrowland, but that was about it.

This illusion that we call "Magic" has and always will be there. Now I know other disney parks around the world may or have said to have cleaner parks than at WDW, but don't let that take away from your vacation, especially if you go all the time. Sure you may find some very noticeable flaws, but even if you, hope that next time some how that flaw will be fixed. :wave:
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
JustinTheClaw said:
I think you need to ask yourself one question:

How do you determine what people matter?

I think it's a very shallow-minded way of phrasing the questions. Are you saying that people who find faults in the "show" do not matter? If it weren't for the people who find the faults, Disney World would be a flawed show. One thing this thread has proven is that Disney fanatics, supposedly the ones who matter most, have a tendency to deny things of which they don't like the idea - myself included. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you can at least try hardest to please the people who care enough to say something.

My point (in an attempt to answer your questions) is it's shoddy Imagineering. They could have finished the whole mountain and no one would have ever given it a thought and we wouldn't be having this discussion; but the fact is, they didn't. It's not a matter of "should they spend the money to finish the backside of the mountain?" but more a matter of "why didn't they finish it in the first place and not give us a reason to discuss the backside of the mountain?"

Even if they were to finish it within the next month or so it would be like having a tatoo removed. Anyone who had never seen it wouldn't know any different, because they would expect it to look that way; but all of the people who had seen it before would notice the difference and have a basis for comparison (and subsequently point it out to those who hadn't seen it). There's an opposite reaction to the "Epcot wand." People who had never seen Spaceship Earth before 2000 don't realize that something is different, but everyone who knew Spaceship Earth as it had been knows something is wrong. Had the wand been there all along, no one would talk about it or complain about it or analyze its asthetic or financial ramifications.

Everybody knows that Pirates of the Caribbean was the last Attraction Walt Disney supervised himself, and I'm sure we all know that he never lived to see its opening day. Do you know why? The Imagineers new Walt's health was fading. They were trying to finish the Attraction by the proposed deadline so that Walt would get to see it. Some of the Imagineers suggested that if they left out a few things, or opened the Attraction and then added more things along the way they could have it open in time. Walt basically told them that there was no point in opening if they didn't have a finished product. Because of that decision he never got to see his masterpiece. We did, however, see exactly what Walt wanted us to see, with no cut-backs or compromises. There were no complaints, or at least none that carried.

There are a lot of people talking about the back of Everest. The fact that this thread has become so focused on it is proof. Should they finish the mountain? That's up to the Imagineers, the executives and the people at Guest Relations who hear the comments about it. Should they have finished it before we had a chance to comment on it? I believe that's how Walt would have had it.

The majority matters......of the 8.5+ million people that visit DAK this year, only a hundred, if that, will be "hardcore Disney fans"....furthermore, I have only seen about 7-10 post that the back of the mountain is an issue.

Should Disney spend millions to please 7-10 people?....or should they focus on appealing to the masses, as they have always done?

Should they spend MILLIONS to fix the back of an attraction to the liking of 7-10 people, or should they wait 2 years for the trees to grow a bit taller...which is free...and is going to happen anyway?
 

JustinTheClaw

Member
Original Poster
wannab@dis said:
I was about to say the same thing... appears the bear, or at least his claw, is back.

I'm just going to leave this alone since it's apparent you can't affect the views of extremists. This is the norm for threads such as this... if you really pay attention, you'll see that the whole discussion should be about "Disney Extremists" -- those people who have NO clue except what THEY want and anything else is wrong. General Grizz was the epitome and now he's got a successor. Or, has he returned? :hurl:
As I have already said to Corrus (as well as others in an argument which thankfully most people never got to see), it is not necessary to insult me or others simply because I have an opposing viewpoint. At least I'm assuming it's an insult, since I have no idea who you're talking about. Nor do I have any idea what all this "chipped paint" business is all about.

I am also growing very tired of insinuations that I am stupid or blind to reality. I have seen few other people (Corrus being one of the few) who have put as much thought or research into their posts as I. Many of you simply tell me or others we're wrong and don't present any logical reason why.

Maybe I am an extremist. I care a lot about this place and I hate to see faults in it. Yes, I am aware that it is not perfect and could never be, but that shouldn't stop them from striving to come as close to perfect as possible. It is an eye-sore, and just because you don't think so doesn't mean other people don't. The difference is the people who see it as an eye-sore are the ones who will care enough to make it known. How many people do you think go to Guest Relations with something good to say?

I'm expressing my opinion, and instead of just sitting there and calling me names and saying I'm wrong, try expressing your opinion in a way that might be constructive and condusive to discussion. All you are doing right now is insulting and irritating me.

Or, here's an idea: you could always change the topic if you are tired of it. Bring up something else related to the thread. There are many things Disney fanatics can agree or disagree on. Try our knowledge on something else.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Perfection has a price......one that is no longer affordable

You seem to always go back to the whole "Walt would have done X" arguement....which is bogus because you have no idea what Walt would have done.

Anway, Walt never had to do business in the economy of today. He never had the profit expectations that the institutional shareholders have of the company, he never had the oversite that the SEC requires....Walt had it easy. Anything related to the vision or dream of Walt is no longer relevant, and can not be used to further your arguement.
 

JustinTheClaw

Member
Original Poster
speck76 said:
The majority matters......of the 8.5+ million people that visit DAK this year, only a hundred, if that, will be "hardcore Disney fans"....furthermore, I have only seen about 7-10 post that the back of the mountain is an issue.

Should Disney spend millions to please 7-10 people?....or should they focus on appealing to the masses, as they have always done?

Should they spend MILLIONS to fix the back of an attraction to the liking of 7-10 people, or should they wait 2 years for the trees to grow a bit taller...which is free...and is going to happen anyway?
The trees aren't growing any taller. Many of those trees were there before the park was and others are planted on a ridge that is already taller than the rest of the ground. Florida doesn't have towering foliage. Most of those trees are as tall as they're going to get. It's a good idea, but they'd need to plant more trees to make it work (not that planting trees is a bad thing).

And 7-10 people out of the dozen or so (being generous) who have regularly posted on this topic is a very large percentage of "unhappy" people (about 60-80%), especially for Disney, and especially when you consider an average day at Animal Kingdom draws about 20,000 people or more. That's at least 12,000 unhappy people, and possibly more who aren't actually saying anything. Once again you have used your own facts to prove yourself wrong. To quote your first statement: "The majority matters."

Clearly you're not reading what I am saying in the post you quoted. What I am saying is it's probably not worth spending the money now, but it would have been worth spending the money six months ago before the Attraction opened and this discussion would not even be happening.

Though you you have managed to disprove me on one point. I commented earlier that most adults have difficulty accepting things at face value. You on the other hand (assuming you are, in fact, an adult) seem to readily take at face value that every post I make is going to contradict you, and have posted based on that assumption. I have never disagreed that for Disney to spend the money right now to complete the mountain would be a little foolish. What I am saying is had they spent the money at the time they were building it, no one would have ever known.
 

JustinTheClaw

Member
Original Poster
speck76 said:
Perfection has a price......one that is no longer affordable

You seem to always go back to the whole "Walt would have done X" arguement....which is bogus because you have no idea what Walt would have done.

Anway, Walt never had to do business in the economy of today. He never had the profit expectations that the institutional shareholders have of the company, he never had the oversite that the SEC requires....Walt had it easy. Anything related to the vision or dream of Walt is no longer relevant, and can not be used to further your arguement.
This is very true. In Walt's day the company was all about Walt. Walt's ideas, Walt's decisions and (perhaps most importantly) Walt's money. It makes decision making a lot more difficult when you have a comittee and shareholders to please, rather than just one man.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
JustinTheClaw said:
The trees aren't growing any taller. Many of those trees were there before the park was and others are planted on a ridge that is already taller than the rest of the ground. Florida doesn't have towering foliage. Most of those trees are as tall as they're going to get. It's a good idea, but they'd need to plant more trees to make it work (not that planting trees is a bad thing).

And 7-10 people out of the dozen or so (being generous) who have regularly posted on this topic is a very large percentage of "unhappy" people (about 60-80%), especially for Disney, and especially when you consider an average day at Animal Kingdom draws about 20,000 people or more. That's at least 12,000 unhappy people, and possibly more who aren't actually saying anything. Once again you have used your own facts to prove yourself wrong. To quote your first statement: "The majority matters."

Clearly you're not reading what I am saying in the post you quoted. What I am saying is it's probably not worth spending the money now, but it would have been worth spending the money six months ago before the Attraction opened and this discussion would not even be happening.

Though you you have managed to disprove me on one point. I commented earlier that most adults have difficulty accepting things at face value. You on the other hand (assuming you are, in fact, an adult) seem to readily take at face value that every post I make is going to contradict you, and have posted based on that assumption. I have never disagreed that for Disney to spend the money right now to complete the mountain would be a little foolish. What I am saying is had they spent the money at the time they were building it, no one would have ever known.

If they would have budgeted to build an entire mountain.....chances are the ride would have never been built, or perhaps other aspects of the ride (the queue theme) would have been cut. The money supply is not endless.....

BTW...I know you are new here.....but this subject was discussed before the ride ever opened....nobody cared.....

Soarin' showing above Canada....a fair amount of people here (at least 50) cared about that....I have NEVER heard anyone in Epcot complain about it...and it certainly has not hurt Epcot's attendance levels.
 

Enderikari

Well-Known Member
JustinTheClaw said:
And 7-10 people out of the dozen or so (being generous) who have regularly posted on this topic is a very large percentage of "unhappy" people (about 60-80%), especially for Disney, and especially when you consider an average day at Animal Kingdom draws about 20,000 people or more. That's at least 12,000 unhappy people, and possibly more who aren't actually saying anything. Once again you have used your own facts to prove yourself wrong. To quote your first statement: "The majority matters."

Sorry pal, your logic is critically flawed... The people on this website are NOT a representative sample of the folks who go to WDW, not even a representative sample of folks who visit on a daily basis. You have Stitch syndrome, where, because you and a couple of crazy folks on the internet don't like it, you assume that Disney must get complaints all the time about it... That's just simply not true... 12,000 people a day are not dissatisfied at E:E, less than 12 a day are. And... its the same people each and every day. Those folks who are familiar with the product, but have no comprehension of it, which I am sad to say, you are among their ranks.
The majority matters... And tens of thousands of people suspend disbelief and enjoy the heck out of E:E.. And not one of them thinks to complain because of something they do not see...
Q.E.D.
 

Enderikari

Well-Known Member
JustinTheClaw said:
This is very true. In Walt's day the company was all about Walt. Walt's ideas, Walt's decisions and (perhaps most importantly) Walt's money. It makes decision making a lot more difficult when you have a comittee and shareholders to please, rather than just one man.


Ummmm..... Roy played a much more important role than I am sure you are willing to concede. And to that, even back to the days of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, the investors (which can be a much bigger pain than shareholders) monitored every move Walt made, forcing him to make certain changes, and making him show the movie off to them in an unfinished version, against Walt's wishes... He still had people to appease, but I guess you never learned that in your history piece....
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
JustinTheClaw said:
As I have already said to Corrus (as well as others in a argument which thankfully most people never got to see), it is not necessary to insult me or others simply because I have an opposing viewpoint. At least I'm assuming it's an insult, since I have no idea who you're talking about. Nor do I have any idea what all this "chipped paint" business is all about.

I am also growing very tired of insinuations that I am stupid or blind to reality. I have seen few other people (Corrus being one of the few) who have put as much thought or research into their posts as I. Many of you simply tell me or others we're wrong and don't present any logical reason why.

Maybe I am an extremist. I care a lot about this place and I hate to see faults in it. Yes, I am aware that it is not perfect and could never be, but that shouldn't stop them from striving to come as close to perfect as possible. It is an eye-sore, and just because you don't think so doesn't mean other people don't. The difference is the people who see it as an eye-sore are the ones who will care enough to make it known. How many people do you think go to Guest Relations with something good to say?

I'm expressing my opinion, and instead of just sitting there and calling me names and saying I'm wrong, try expressing your opinion in a way that might be constructive and condusive to discussion. All you are doing right now is insulting and irritating me.

Or, here's an idea: you could always change the topic if you are tired of it. Bring up something else related to the thread. There are many things Disney fanatics can agree or disagree on. Try our knowledge on something else.
Facts and opinions have been posted MANY times and you just ignore them or go back to the 'pwease stop attacking me' claim. Nobody is attacking you... just calling it like we see things.

The back of EE was debated to death weeks and months ago and it was a VERY MINOR percentage of people that even cared. Of those few, even less thought it was a problem. If you think it's a problem, complain to guest services. (I'll probably spend a few minutes and send them an email thanking them for spending the time and money to bring us a WONDERFUL attraction.)

:D
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
Enderikari said:
Ummmm..... Roy played a much more important role than I am sure you are willing to concede. And to that, even back to the days of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, the investors (which can be a much bigger pain than shareholders) monitored every move Walt made, forcing him to make certain changes, and making him show the movie off to them in an unfinished version, against Walt's wishes... He still had people to appease, but I guess you never learned that in your history piece....
Exactly... In addition... The whole "what would Walt do" mess has nothing to do with reality... it's 100% a self-centered extrapolation of bad logic and little or no understanding of what really happens in business.
 

Epcot82Guy

Well-Known Member
wannab@dis said:
Exactly... In addition... The whole "what would Walt do" mess has nothing to do with reality... it's 100% a self-centered extrapolation of bad logic and little or no understanding of what really happens in business.

wannab@dis, we were getting so close to agreement,b ut guess we have to go back to old splits, now.

Actually, I do agree that there is a definite business model decision that agrees to not finishing the mountain. The tangibile return on finishing the mountain would appear to be minimal since most guests would not affirmatively notice or care.

However, there is one element that Disney himself did that is being lost. He paid close attention to artistic details. Everything did not look or feel real. But, he had a knack for finding elements that were important to jog that childhood imagination. It had to feel right, not necessarily look or be accurate. That, in my opinion, is what the Disney success was based on. I know you will disagree, but I am not much of a WWWD person. I actually think some of his ideas would have prevented the WDW of my childhood. But, I think this is one where he got it right. It's a basic principle of theater. There are things backstage that are not to be seen. Will most people affirmatively find problems with them, no. BUT, guests notice. It may be subconscious, but it registers. THe more of these that happen, the more hollow the effect becomes.

As much as I would have like to see the mountain finished off, it is the entire lack of completion in a direct view that is important. Soarin', while the building is a bit garrish, dealt with impossibility. Covering it would be difficult. EE, on the other hand, could have easily been improved through a storng faux paint job, tiers of planters with trees, or, of course, the finished rock work.

No matter how you look at EE, it will be much more difficult to believe. You see it first from the parking lot, and it's got a big box jutting straight out. You can see Mansion and Pirates from the train, but you have to try and know what you are looking for. It could have a neon sign and perhaps be less obvious on EE. That's bad show.

Also, as for the paint, it is a similar situation. If there are chips around, that happens. But large swatches of several square feet sitting for 8 months (which I saw first hand) is excessive.

All of these come from one thing: being cheap or "economic" for the company. Of course these decisions must be made, and perhaps they are the right ones. But, to go into it blindly and say that "no one cares" or that it has no effect is a bit naive. To say it is fully illogical is frankly wrong IMHO. I have a pretty strong family history in this line of business, and I DO have a good idea. The modern Disney is not nearly the success of certain points in its past. The company has recreated its approach several times (and is doing so now). There is a balance between art and marketable business, and a tip too far one way OR THE OTHER is bad.
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
:( And we were getting closer to sharing a viewpoint. :lol:

As you so well explained, WDW attractions are a theater for bringing the show to the guests. I think we'll just have to agree that we don't see the stage the same. For me, the stage is inside the gates. Now, I think the Pirates view from the train is worse than the showbuilding of EE. The reason is that I'm INSIDE the show once I walk through the gates. However, I still would not understand them spending money to make a change. It doesn't make sense from a show point. The show of Pirates is just fine. The show in a parking lot of DAK doesn't exist. What's the next problem to be discussed? A universal bumper sticker?

Animal Kingdom is a show. It doesn't start at a specific time, but a specific place... when you walk in the gate. I'm not saying that I'm glad the building is showing, but I am saying that it's a non-issue. By the way, did you see the Discover channel special on the building of EE? If you did, this would probably be a non-issue for you as well. The effort they put into building the mountain, making sure of the scale and views, the efforts in the queue, the blood, sweat and tears of research, and unbelievably built Yeti... All this was years of work and millions of dollars to produce the next classic attraction. Yet, we still have some complaints about a parking lot view. Blows my mind.

By the way, we're in agreement on the paint issues. Normal wear and tear or small paint flecks or chips isn't an issue... Go see the TTA thread to get my view on the pictures of the bridge. :wave:
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
nobody cares about paint chips = nobody cares enough to let it ruin their vacation, or stop returning to the park (which is what matters)
 

Epcot82Guy

Well-Known Member
wannab@dis said:
:( And we were getting closer to sharing a viewpoint. :lol:

As you so well explained, WDW attractions are a theater for bringing the show to the guests. I think we'll just have to agree that we don't see the stage the same. For me, the stage is inside the gates. Now, I think the Pirates view from the train is worse than the showbuilding of EE. The reason is that I'm INSIDE the show once I walk through the gates. However, I still would not understand them spending money to make a change. It doesn't make sense from a show point. The show of Pirates is just fine. The show in a parking lot of DAK doesn't exist. What's the next problem to be discussed? A universal bumper sticker?

Animal Kingdom is a show. It doesn't start at a specific time, but a specific place... when you walk in the gate. I'm not saying that I'm glad the building is showing, but I am saying that it's a non-issue. By the way, did you see the Discover channel special on the building of EE? If you did, this would probably be a non-issue for you as well. The effort they put into building the mountain, making sure of the scale and views, the efforts in the queue, the blood, sweat and tears of research, and unbelievably built Yeti... All this was years of work and millions of dollars to produce the next classic attraction. Yet, we still have some complaints about a parking lot view. Blows my mind.

By the way, we're in agreement on the paint issues. Normal wear and tear or small paint flecks or chips isn't an issue... Go see the TTA thread to get my view on the pictures of the bridge. :wave:

closer and closer. Perhaps one day. :lol:

I'll also agree to disagree on the show issue. To me, the show is everything that is visible. As with modern theater, there are technical elements that just can't be hidden any more. However, the stage itself has become a perfrect example of how it is being blended in in an artistic way. I do realize there is a huge cost to this, and I will never claim that finishing the mountain was necessary. It's like the back of TOT. When your viewpoint is from afar, it doesn't have to be finished out entirely (great if it can, but that is PURELY artistic and very costly). But for me, the show starts building when you walk on property.

Let's try this analogy. Disney World to me is like a show where the curtain is never able to close. Therefore, the show starts before the "show" starts for me. It's a lot easier to suspend my disbelief when the reality isn't physically staring me in the face. If all the set pieces were line up on stage facing sideways with the supports, back pint marks, crew, etc. before the overture began playing, it just lessens the magic (same would be true if you had the elevation system for a magic trick operating without the subject before you saw the show). Backstage = out of guest view. If it is on guest view, hide it (in any way that is effective).
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
but many things are in guest view, depending on where you are....so where is the line drawn....

Guests staying in MK-view rooms at the Contemporary can see backstage....so should this area be themed too?

EE is one of the best looking attractions built at any Disney park ever.....and looks great from every angle inside the park....
 

Tim G

Well-Known Member
imagineer boy said:
I have no idea what the hell it is you're talking about. ToT is themed correctly!!! That's what I've been saying. I'm comparing how its themed, compared to how unthemed the backside of everest is.

Or maybe you think I just don't understand because I'm a dumb, naive, sixteen year old adolesant who only cares about $ex, junk food, and punk rock. :rolleyes:

Well... :rolleyes:... In fact you are a dumb, naive, sixteen year old adolesant who only cares about $ex, junk food, and punk rock. LOL :lol: LOL... as most teens of you're age... :lookaroun

But in this case I have to admit you're right about T.O.T. :D
 

Tim G

Well-Known Member
speck76 said:
but many things are in guest view, depending on where you are....so where is the line drawn....

Guests staying in MK-view rooms at the Contemporary can see backstage....so should this area be themed too?

EE is one of the best looking attractions built at any Disney park ever.....and looks great from every angle inside the park....
RIGHT!!!

I couldn't have said it better... :D
 

JustinTheClaw

Member
Original Poster
WannaB@Dis said:
Facts and opinions have been posted MANY times and you just ignore them or go back to the 'pwease stop attacking me' claim. Nobody is attacking you... just calling it like we see things.
This is the sort of childishness to which I am referring. You couldn't have stated your case in a respectful way, as speck76 had a few posts before you. You felt it necessary to make fun of me. That is what I call an attack.

What you seem to be trying to tell me is that my opinion doesn't matter and I have no logical right to have it. Just because a million people think one thing and one person thinks otherwise doesn't make that person wrong. A million people thought Disneyland was going to be a huge failure and never make it through its first year, Walt thought it would be a huge success and stand and evolve for generations to come. Who was right?

I'm not saying that that makes your opinion wrong. I agree that the vast majority of people don't care, but I still believe that that is no reason to ignore it. Everyone keeps talking about money this and money that. Disney has money. On a bad year Disney still makes a profit. During the year or so following September 11, attendance was at an all-time low, but Disney still made money. So they spend $105 million or $110 million to complete the project instead of $100 million and leave it partially unfinished. I doubt a few million dollars will effect Disney much.

I know I won't win, nor am I trying to. If Disney completes the mountain someday I will be very pleased, but it probably won't happen; at least not for a while. I used it as an example of how the Imagineers are being forced to make sacrifices (a completed mountain vs. an amazingly themed and culturally rich queue) where at one point in history they would have been expanding. Apparently I hit a nerve in the audience and the whole thing was blown out of proportion and rode it - always looking for a good debate, which, barring some childishness, I believe I found. I am happy about the choice that the Imagineers made. I wish it hadn't have been a choice.
 

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