Disney Playing catch up with Universal... Potter Disney's biggest mistake in 20 years...

M

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
dupac said:
This poster hasn't exactly stated an argument....


:confused:













Here it looks like he is just upset because he believes that everyone should have the ability to like whatever they want.
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Precisely... how can one "twist" someone's words or positions when there wasn't a stated one to begin with? :confused:

Similar to what you just said, the closest he comes to a position is "everyone should be able to like what they want - it doesn't matter if you don't like, because someone out there found enjoyment in it so it's "good"... or something like that :rolleyes: If anything, he's got 20 sub positions for this one big position that he just can't be bothered to state.
 
Skip

Skip

Well-Known Member
dupac said:
Here it looks like he is just upset because he believes that everyone should have the ability to like whatever they want.
Click to expand...

And if that is the argument, that in itself is fine - everyone is entitled to like what they want, and they don't have to defend it. The trouble starts when you begin to deride other things (presenting your opinion of dislike as a fact) and deriding other far more informed opinions of those things. Again, I may not like The Godfather, and I'm free to say so (and, should I choose, I can offer an argument as to why I don't like it, but this isn't required because I'm merely saying I enjoy something). However, I cannot say that The Godfather is bad because I don't like it - i.e., The Godfather is bad "in my opinion," without providing an argument for your point of view. Those are two very different things.

Film scholars, critics, and audiences alike all largely agree The Godfather is one of the best films of all time and can provide a comprehensive, intelligent explanation as to why. If someone were to claim The Godfather wasn't a great film, they would have to justify that opinion (and objectively they would really struggle to).

The same can't be said for something more polarizing, like say, Avatar. Many really enjoyed the film - I'm one of them - but I can also entertain the argument that it's not a good film because of its stock, undeveloped characters, cookie cutter plot, and excessive length. All three of those points could be expanded upon with specific, inarguable points of evidence and analysis from the film proper. I could also entertain the idea, however, that Avatar is a good film (though probably not a great one) because of its jaw-dropping visuals, impressive world building, and new take on an old story.

It's really hard to argue that Dino-Rama, Stitch's Great Escape, and Imagination 3.0 are good attractions based on any inarguable evidence. There's a reason for that. You may enjoy them - and that's fine, you're entitled to! - but claiming it's objectively "good" is an entirely different ballgame. Same goes for not enjoying an exemplary attraction (The American Adventure, Splash Mountain) - you're entitled to that opinion - but you can't argue (very well) that it isn't good.

That's all because there are objective measures of quality that are determined en masse by professionals (of all sorts) who have more qualified opinions to set the standard.
 
dupac

dupac

Well-Known Member
I am going to say one last thing then get the heck out of this thread.

I think people should like whatever they want and dislike whatever they want. I don't like Big Thunder Mtn. There, I said it. But that doesn't make it not a valuable asset to MK (when kept up of course). I also happen to like Disney animated features. That doesn't mean they should go in Epcot. Generally, people respond well to a theme in their parks. See BGW, BGT, even Six Flags Over Texas or tiny regional parks. "Fun" isn't a theme really...

ETA: @Skip we agree
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
tirian

tirian

Well-Known Member
Bravo. There must be standards for us to gauge what's legitimately a quality product and what isn't.

People who say, "I like it and that's good enough so there!" represent the dumbing down of culture at large. Few people want to acknowledge standards anymore.

Skip said:
And if that is the argument, that in itself is fine - everyone is entitled to like what they want, and they don't have to defend it. The trouble starts when you begin to deride other things (presenting your opinion of dislike as a fact) and deriding other far more informed opinions of those things. Again, I may not like The Godfather, and I'm free to say so (and, should I choose, I can offer an argument as to why I don't like it, but this isn't required because I'm merely saying I enjoy something). However, I cannot say that The Godfather is bad because I don't like it - i.e., The Godfather is bad "in my opinion," without providing an argument for your point of view. Those are two very different things.

Film scholars, critics, and audiences alike all largely agree The Godfather is one of the best films of all time and can provide a comprehensive, intelligent explanation as to why. If someone were to claim The Godfather wasn't a great film, they would have to justify that opinion (and objectively they would really struggle to).

The same can't be said for something more polarizing, like say, Avatar. Many really enjoyed the film - I'm one of them - but I can also entertain the argument that it's not a good film because of its stock, undeveloped characters, cookie cutter plot, and excessive length. All three of those points could be expanded upon with specific, inarguable points of evidence and analysis from the film proper. I could also entertain the idea, however, that Avatar is a good film (though probably not a great one) because of its jaw-dropping visuals, impressive world building, and new take on an old story.

It's really hard to argue that Dino-Rama, Stitch's Great Escape, and Imagination 3.0 are good attractions based on any inarguable evidence. There's a reason for that. You may enjoy them - and that's fine, you're entitled to! - but claiming it's objectively "good" is an entirely different ballgame. Same goes for not enjoying an exemplary attraction (The American Adventure, Splash Mountain) - you're entitled to that opinion - but you can't argue (very well) that it isn't good.

That's all because there are objective measures of quality that are determined en masse by professionals (of all sorts) who have more qualified opinions to set the standard.
Click to expand...
 
D

dadddio

Well-Known Member
mahnamahna101 said:
Precisely... how can one "twist" someone's words or positions when there wasn't a stated one to begin with? :confused:

Similar to what you just said, the closest he comes to a position is "everyone should be able to like what they want - it doesn't matter if you don't like, because someone out there found enjoyment in it so it's "good"... or something like that :rolleyes: If anything, he's got 20 sub positions for this one big position that he just can't be bothered to state.
Click to expand...
There you go again. You take a simple and basic position and you give it a twist. My position that it's OK that a person enjoys an attraction isn't the same as it not mattering whether you don't like it. You see, one position respects a person's right to decide what they like and the other doesn't.

Similarly, you might think that Avatar is awesome. Your opinion is great for you, but it's also OK for other people to not like the same movie. Sharing your position that Avatar is great is fine. When you tell someone who didn't like Avatar that their opinion is not valid, you've overstepped.

I hope this helps, but. I know that you'll just take this simple post and twist it around.
 
D

dadddio

Well-Known Member
Skip said:
And if that is the argument, that in itself is fine - everyone is entitled to like what they want, and they don't have to defend it. The trouble starts when you begin to deride other things (presenting your opinion of dislike as a fact) and deriding other far more informed opinions of those things. Again, I may not like The Godfather, and I'm free to say so (and, should I choose, I can offer an argument as to why I don't like it, but this isn't required because I'm merely saying I enjoy something). However, I cannot say that The Godfather is bad because I don't like it - i.e., The Godfather is bad "in my opinion," without providing an argument for your point of view. Those are two very different things.

Film scholars, critics, and audiences alike all largely agree The Godfather is one of the best films of all time and can provide a comprehensive, intelligent explanation as to why. If someone were to claim The Godfather wasn't a great film, they would have to justify that opinion (and objectively they would really struggle to).

The same can't be said for something more polarizing, like say, Avatar. Many really enjoyed the film - I'm one of them - but I can also entertain the argument that it's not a good film because of its stock, undeveloped characters, cookie cutter plot, and excessive length. All three of those points could be expanded upon with specific, inarguable points of evidence and analysis from the film proper. I could also entertain the idea, however, that Avatar is a good film (though probably not a great one) because of its jaw-dropping visuals, impressive world building, and new take on an old story.

It's really hard to argue that Dino-Rama, Stitch's Great Escape, and Imagination 3.0 are good attractions based on any inarguable evidence. There's a reason for that. You may enjoy them - and that's fine, you're entitled to! - but claiming it's objectively "good" is an entirely different ballgame. Same goes for not enjoying an exemplary attraction (The American Adventure, Splash Mountain) - you're entitled to that opinion - but you can't argue (very well) that it isn't good.

That's all because there are objective measures of quality that are determined en masse by professionals (of all sorts) who have more qualified opinions to set the standard.
Click to expand...
Thank you for presenting my position in a way that they understood.
 
D

dadddio

Well-Known Member
tirian said:
Bravo. There must be standards for us to gauge what's legitimately a quality product and what isn't.

People who say, "I like it and that's good enough so there!" represent the dumbing down of culture at large. Few people want to acknowledge standards anymore.
Click to expand...
For a theme park attraction, isn't quality gauged by interest?
 
M

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
dadddio said:
There you go again. You take a simple and basic position and you give it a twist. My position that it's OK that a person enjoys an attraction isn't the same as it not mattering whether you don't like it. You see, one position respects a person's right to decide what they like and the other doesn't.

Similarly, you might think that Avatar is awesome. Your opinion is great for you, but it's also OK for other people to not like the same movie. Sharing your position that Avatar is great is fine. When you tell someone who didn't like Avatar that their opinion is not valid, you've overstepped.

I hope this helps, but. I know that you'll just take this simple post and twist it around.
Click to expand...

Your first post that doesn't resort to smug one liners - congrats

You twisted my posts yourself by trying to make my original "Epcot isn't solely aimed at being mindless fun" argument into a "He thinks people shouldn't be allowed to have fun on vacation" argument. And I never said people aren't entitled to opinions. Just that there's a certain standard where even iif one doesn't like something, they can't deny it's high quality.

So people calling Stitch's Great Escape well made should be taken seriously? People who consider Imagination 3.0 to be the hallmark of immersion are valid in their assumption? Because some people enjoy themselves on Nemo, the lack of educational value should be ignored? Dinoland being enjoyed by kids negates the general tackiness?

Like it or not, some opinions are mindless and uninformed. Anyone who says Transformers 4 is higher quality than The Godfather for example. Another is anyone who considers Rebecca Black more talented than The Beatles or Mozart. Thinking Stephanie Meyer is a better author than Shakespeare, Dickens or even Dr. Seuss is another.

There are certain barometers of quality that pass just "matter of opinion". Hence, why we have general consensus.

I didn't twist any of your words and agree that it's okay to have different opinions.
 
Mike S

Mike S

Well-Known Member
mahnamahna101 said:
Your first post that doesn't resort to smug one liners - congrats

You twisted my posts yourself by trying to make my original "Epcot isn't solely aimed at being mindless fun" argument into a "He thinks people shouldn't be allowed to have fun on vacation" argument. And I never said people aren't entitled to opinions. Just that there's a certain standard where even iif one doesn't like something, they can't deny it's high quality.

So people calling Stitch's Great Escape well made should be taken seriously? People who consider Imagination 3.0 to be the hallmark of immersion are valid in their assumption? Because some people enjoy themselves on Nemo, the lack of educational value should be ignored? Dinoland being enjoyed by kids negates the general tackiness?

Like it or not, some opinions are mindless and uninformed. Anyone who says Transformers 4 is higher quality than The Godfather for example. Another is anyone who considers Rebecca Black more talented than The Beatles or Mozart. Thinking Stephanie Meyer is a better author than Shakespeare, Dickens or even Dr. Seuss is another.

There are certain barometers of quality that pass just "matter of opinion". Hence, why we have general consensus.

I didn't twist any of your words and agree that it's okay to have different opinions.
Click to expand...
Don't forget J.K. Rowling. Much better author than Stephanie Meyer.
 
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Todd H

Todd H

Well-Known Member
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