News Disney offers to pay union members at least $15 by 2021

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Your last sentence pretty much sums it up.

There’s been a TON of wonk resistance to this national movement the last couple of years...

The same people that talk about “takers” and “giveaways” fail to understand that the 20th century model is wrecked and it can’t be reassembled...

Judging $15 an hour as “too much”...doesn’t examine the math that says you have to get that number to sustain the economy and beyond. Prices have escalated far beyond wages since 1968.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
But saying if I made $15/hr i Would be better off it’s almost $3 more than I make an hour that took me 17 years to get there. Lol But just thankful to have a great job I love and great benefits. ;)

True...but wages are a regional thing too...it’s not that simple.

$15 is a huge jump in Orlando...it’s a pay cut in Anaheim and might get you stabbed by your workers as an insult in Manhattan
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
There’s been a TON of wonk resistance to this national movement the last couple of years...

The same people that talk about “takers” and “giveaways” fail to understand that the 20th century model is wrecked and it can’t be reassembled...

Judging $15 an hour as “too much”...doesn’t examine the math that says you have to get that number to sustain the economy and beyond. Prices have escalated far beyond wages since 1968.

Yep. And we won't even get started on the way the gov'mint has manipulated "inflation" calculations for decades.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Yep. And we won't even get started on the way the gov'mint has manipulated "inflation" calculations for decades.

You know...I have thought of trying to bring that up on these price/economic/labor discussions on Disney sites over the years...

But I can’t do it...I’m afraid that If it gets out, people all over the post industrial/farming belt’s heads will spontaneously combust 🔥
 

Driver

Well-Known Member
This, unfortunately a lot of us really depend on that OT. It helps a lot.
Yes a lot do depend on it and my heart goes out to the folks who need it and have to work so hard to make ends meet. But I like to think that if the wages were better people could have more off time to spend with their families. My motto has always been " I work to live.... I don't live to work"
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
@CaptainAmerica

So like college program and holdovers? No advancement?
I know two people who were CPs. They both moved on to professional internships. Now one of them works for corporate in Burbank and another is at Marvel in New York. The people I know who are still in Orlando are in degree-required positions in their career fields. Some have advanced within their roles and others have advanced by jumping around to different departments or temporary assignments until they found something that fit.

I’m trying to grasp your angry pathos here...

You seem unusually angry about the concept of pay to those that run Godzilla.

But to be fair: that’s common. Not a unique stance.
Artificially high wages (whether due to minimum wage laws or union contracts) hurt unskilled entry-level workers by making them unemployable. If a worker is worth $11 and you raise the minimum wage to $15, you're ensuring that he won't get hired at all. An $11 job is better than no job at all.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I know two people who were CPs. They both moved on to professional internships. Now one of them works for corporate in Burbank and another is at Marvel in New York. The people I know who are still in Orlando are in degree-required positions in their career fields. Some have advanced within their roles and others have advanced by jumping around to different departments or temporary assignments until they found something that fit.


Artificially high wages (whether due to minimum wage laws or union contracts) hurt unskilled entry-level workers by making them unemployable. If a worker is worth $11 and you raise the minimum wage to $15, you're ensuring that he won't get hired at all. An $11 job is better than no job at all.

I’m not asking who you “know”...was the wife a CP turned hourly?

I’m not being snarky...there are thousands and thousands of that description and it leads to a lot of angst later.

The problem with your $11/$15 theory is that those numbers still suck in the context of the economy.

The idea to “hold the line” on the bottom of the low end is econmically not feasible unless it is combined with price controls.

You can’t say “prices are worth what the market says” and then say “people are only worth what I say”...and you are doing just that. People must pay the prices.
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
I’m not asking who you “know”...was the wife a CP turned hourly?
No. Started in resort merchandise, got promoted to trainer (or coordinator or whatever they call it), then moved to animal programs, then moved to a more desirable role in animal programs. So she advanced three times in three years simply by showing up with a positive attitude and solid worth ethic.

The problem with your $11/$15 theory is that those numbers still suck in the context of the economy.

The idea to “hold the line” on the bottom of the low end is econmically not feasible unless it is combined with price controls.

You can’t say “prices are worth what the market says” and then say “people are only worth what I say”...and you are doing just that. People must pay the prices.
Except labor isn't static, it's fluid. Regardless of whether it's $11 or $15, the people on the bottom rung today aren't the same people who will be on the bottom rung five years from now unless they're doing something to keep themselves stuck. Today's entry-level people should be developing, acquiring skills and experience, networking, and moving on. Then it's the next generation of entry-level workers who backfill them in the low-wage positions.

Real-life example. My father makes about $75,000 per year in a factory job that requires zero education, zero special certifications, and zero experience. He'll never be rich but he raised three kids in a decent house in a safe neighborhood and took us on vacation once a year. His company hires loads of people for lower-wage entry-level positions in their shipping and receiving warehouse before training them to be machine operators on the factory floor. The only requirements to move into the higher-paying positions are that you show professionalism and responsibility. We're talking about basic stuff. Show up to work on time. Show up to work sober. Don't fall asleep on the job. Pass your drug test. Don't cuss out your boss or coworkers. Now, $75,000 per year breaks down to about $36 per hour, which should be a dream wage for someone with no education or special training. Yet the company literally can't stay fully staffed with people who meet those basic requirements (on time, sober (drugs and alcohol), awake, and not an a-hole). People burn out in the entry-level positions even though there's a very lucrative career-track position on the horizon if they can only keep their heads screwed on straight. It's very difficult to be wealthy but that doesn't mean it's difficult to be un-poor. I have little sympathy for those who trap themselves in dead-end jobs due to poor decision making and then blame "the system" for their situation in life. It's not Trump's fault or Obama's fault or Bob Iger's fault or your union chief's fault. Own your own career and own your own life.

To compound the problem, Disney workers often voluntarily break what we'd consider normal economic expectations. They're so enamored with working for Disney that people who should be developing and advancing are choosing to stay put just because they really really really want to work for Disney.
 
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21stamps

Well-Known Member
Yes a lot do depend on it and my heart goes out to the folks who need it and have to work so hard to make ends meet. But I like to think that if the wages were better people could have more off time to spend with their families. My motto has always been " I work to live.... I don't live to work"

Consider this though.. someone spends a lot of money on a degree/degrees, they enter a position and bust their bums, they then work through the promotion ladder and still bust their bums, they miss their children’s events, they get phone calls/emails/texts while out with their family or on vacation.. they consistently work over 40 hours per week, at the office, at home, and wherever they may be. They do not get to leave work at work.

But someone in an hourly wage low skilled job, who does get to leave their work at the workplace -they should be able to work only 40 hours per week and be paid enough to be comfortable with their finances.

I am not saying that a ride operator or guest services rep doesn’t work hard, but we have to consider what we’re asking for. An entry level wage isn’t supposed to be a long term wage.

In a perfect world, everyone would be comfortable. But it’s not a perfect world, and there is a reason that some positions receive a higher pay than others.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
We’re not talking about “minimum wages” here...

Somehow it’s now “maximum starting wages”. That cannot exist without price controls for populations in the millions and billions. The economics would collapse.

So if you advocate: “Disney should charge what the market will give”, fine...but then you can’t say “$11 is fine, $15 is too much”

You can’t “selectively” pick Adam Smith’s brain.

Is the issue here that there’s a fear that your “magic” is gonna cost more In 2021? It will...but it will have nothing to do with the salaries/wages of the nametags.

Or is it the idea that the unions didn’t cave and are actually holding the line? I have to say, I’m shocked...And encouraged honesty.

The place will not run itself...and the level of automation will be what it is regardless whether you pay people $5 or $50 an hour...which means it will be increased irregardless of the because machines don’t require payroll tax or medical...longterm
Savings.

Very interesting how this can bring out the frankly ugly nature of what people want for their coinhabitants and how far the defense of the mouse will go.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
We’re not talking about “minimum wages” here...

Somehow it’s now “maximum starting wages”. That cannot exist without price controls for populations in the millions and billions. The economics would collapse.
We're talking about uniform starting wages because that's how unions work. Disney doesn't individually negotiate the starting salary with new hires. If they did, you probably would have some make $11 and some making $17. The whole idea of the union contract is to make everything uniform.

The fact that my wage would be tied to what everyone else has been negotiated to make, and that I can't bargain for myself, is one reason union jobs have never appealed to me personally. But that's just me.
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
We’re not talking about “minimum wages” here...

Somehow it’s now “maximum starting wages”. That cannot exist without price controls for populations in the millions and billions. The economics would collapse.

So if you advocate: “Disney should charge what the market will give”, fine...but then you can’t say “$11 is fine, $15 is too much”

You can’t “selectively” pick Adam Smith’s brain.

Is the issue here that there’s a fear that your “magic” is gonna cost more In 2021? It will...but it will have nothing to do with the salaries/wages of the nametags.
I literally never said any of that. Disney should charge what the market will allow and they should pay market wages. If market wage for a fry cook in central Florida is $22 per hour with four weeks of paid vacation, cheers to that.

Or is it the idea that the unions didn’t cave and are actually holding the line? I have to say, I’m shocked...And encouraged honesty.
The problem is that the union is actually hurting their members here. These positions (the "nametags" as you call them) are not skill positions, meaning they're prime candidates to be scabbed. Unions of engineers and electricians are effective because there's not an army of unemployed engineers and electricians waiting behind them to undercut their wage demands. That's not the case with service positions, which any worker can reasonably do. They're going to get undercut.

The place will not run itself...and the level of automation will be what it is regardless whether you pay people $5 or $50 an hour...which means it will be increased irregardless of the because machines don’t require payroll tax or medical...longterm Savings.
That's just not true. There's something called "break-even analysis." Investments in automation are directly correlated to the cost savings associated with the reduction in labor. You don't invest $1 million in automation if it's only going to save you $800,000 in labor. But you do invest $1 million in automation if it's going to save you $1,100,000.

Very interesting how this can bring out the frankly ugly nature of what people want for their coinhabitants and how far the defense of the mouse will go.
It's not defense of "the mouse." Everything I've said I believe to be true whether we're talking about Disney, Comcast, McDonald's, your local Pizza Hut, Walmart, whatever.

The fact that my wage would be tied to what everyone else has been negotiated to make, and that I can't bargain for myself, is one reason union jobs have never appealed to me personally. But that's just me.
The unions (the ones at Disney at least) are also very sneaky. They get time with new employees during their orientation when management has to leave the room entirely. They present themselves as agents of the company and strongly imply (without technically outright lying) that joining the union is mandatory. They pass out registration forms as if everyone is required to fill it out and then they give you a hard time if you question them. If my wife hadn't known to watch out for this ahead of time, she would have gone right along with it.
 
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Katie G

Well-Known Member
Also consider the comparison to other low wage job starting salaries - teachers, police, fire, social workers, etc. Avg starting salary in Central Florida for teachers is around 45k or $20/hr. Compare that to the $15 ask of the starting wage for unskilled work at Disney in the union. Sure, they should totally pay the teachers and such more money, but when you look at the market in central florida of skilled jobs vs. these entry level unskilled jobs offered at Disney... does $15 still make sense?
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Also consider the comparison to other low wage job starting salaries - teachers, police, fire, social workers, etc. Avg starting salary in Central Florida for teachers is around 45k or $20/hr. Compare that to the $15 ask of the starting wage for unskilled work at Disney in the union. Sure, they should totally pay the teachers and such more money, but when you look at the market in central florida of skilled jobs vs. these entry level unskilled jobs offered at Disney... does $15 still make sense?

I missed the part where anyone said Florida was run well?

That’s an elephant on a beanbag chair here...
 
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xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
That's just not true. There's something called "break-even analysis." Investments in automation are directly correlated to the cost savings associated with the reduction in labor. You don't invest $1 million in automation if it's only going to save you $800,000 in labor. But you do invest $1 million in automation if it's going to save you $1,100,000.
Before you posted a total fallacy regarding this. Now you are posting a half truth.

Automation is coming. It has NOTHING to do with starting hourly wage for CMs.

Also consider the comparison to other low wage job starting salaries - teachers, police, fire, social workers, etc. Avg starting salary in Central Florida for teachers is around 45k or $20/hr. Compare that to the $15 ask of the starting wage for unskilled work at Disney in the union. Sure, they should totally pay the teachers and such more money, but when you look at the market in central florida of skilled jobs vs. these entry level unskilled jobs offered at Disney... does $15 still make sense?

Essentially your argument is.....

This one thing sucks. So this other thing should suck also. It’s only fair!

Interesting how that argument only works one way though.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
Before you posted a total fallacy regarding this. Now you are posting a half truth.

Automation is coming. It has NOTHING to do with starting hourly wage for CMs.
That is just simply false.

There is a cost to automation. It is not free. Disney would not pursue it unless it would save them more money than it costs.

When hourly wages go up, including those of entry level cast members, labor costs Disney more and the benefit of automation becomes greater. Thus, automation becomes more likely.

Why that is so difficult to see I don't understand.
 

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