Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[Disney Irish]

Despite what people CLAIM about how in the old days you could buy a home on entry level wages. Both my parents and grand parents told me this was never the case. People always have gone through college or trade school to get a "living wage".

Sorry but this is just so not true.

My father purchased his first home in 1975 in Silicon Valley for $25,000 on an entry level wage. It was only a few cents above minimum wage at the time, and he didn't have a college degree. He and my mother (who also worked an entry level position at the time) saved for a couple years in order to have a down payment to buy that house.

Just because it didn't happen for either your parents or grandparents doesn't mean it wasn't happening or wasn't common. I know PLENTY of people from that generation and older, including my grandparents, that ALL bought their first homes without college degrees and ALL started out in entry level positions.

Does that mean they all remained in entry level positions for life, no. But that is not the point, it just means they were about to secure housing on entry level wages.

 

[TP2000]

It is, and again for context, Disney seems to have reached an agreement with the unions (to soon be announced) that would be more in line with what they would have paid under Measure L anyway.

Which was going to happen anyway because wages have been rising quite fast for the past three or four years. An unemployment rate below 5.0% will do that for any economy.

Measure L doesn't apply to Disneyland and never did. (Even if the union wishes they could have a do-over and go back in time four years to rewrite the ballot measure better so it did apply to Disneyland. But time travel is not a thing, except for the Puerto Rican woman who owns the Main Street Christmas shop.)

The new Disneyland starting wage of $17 an hour for custodians and cashiers and ride operators in '22 and $18 an hour by '23 is about right.

In a perfect world, I think it should be a dollar or two higher, but since CM's have newly lowered standards today than they did just a couple years ago, $17 per hour is probably all they should expect. That's about what In-N-Out starts at now, and In-N-Out has much higher standards for their employees.

 

[TP2000]

For the non-locals here, it might be helpful to see what the wages are like in SoCal for entry-level unskilled positions like Disneyland offers;

California Minimum Wage for 2022 = $15.00
WalMarts & Targets in OC = $15.00
McDonald's in OC = $16.00
Disneyland Fast Food = $16.00 ($1,000 Signing Bonus)
Disneyland Custodial = $17.00 ($1,000 Signing Bonus)
Disneyland Ride Operators = $17.00
In-N-Out in OC = $17.00
Amazon Driver in OC = $19.50 ($2,000 Signing Bonus)

 

[TP2000]

Right... So it's their fault for working at Disneyland.

No moreso than it's the fault of all the people working at WalMart or Target or McDonald's or Chipotle or Starbucks. Those are the jobs that either; they could get with their education and skill level, or that they wanted to fit their lifestyle (school, children, second job, etc.).

In short, it's not their "fault", it's their choice to be there.

But that's ok. Disney can just replace all the missing CMs with more mobile apps.

With rising wages across the nation, that's exactly what is already happening. But it's not exclusive to Disneyland, it's happening industry-wide and will accelerate from here. Robots in kitchens, App and screen based ordering, self-serve windows, etc., etc.

I won't be at all surprised when Disneyland figures out a way for a screen to assign you to your row on rides.

 

[Darkbeer1]

No moreso than it's the fault of all the people working at WalMart or Target or McDonald's or Chipotle or Starbucks. Those are the jobs that either; they could get with their education and skill level, or that they wanted to fit their lifestyle (school, children, second job, etc.).

In short, it's not their "fault", it's their choice to be there.



With rising wages across the nation, that's exactly what is already happening. But it's not exclusive to Disneyland, it's happening industry-wide and will accelerate from here. Robots in kitchens, App and screen based ordering, self-serve windows, etc., etc.

I won't be at all surprised when Disneyland figures out a way for a screen to assign you to your row on rides.

Had dinner tonight at the new Kura Sushi restaurant in Garden Grove. (We also go the Brea, Irvine and Cypress locations)

Signed up or the wait list on the app (or you can check in on a tablet).

While a server took our drink order, the drinks were delivered by a robot. (The exact brand shown in the video)



Food came from a conveyor belt, or by using a tablet, then a direct belt.



Most Items are $3.10 a plate.

Menu - Kura Sushi

kurasushi.com

 

[el_super]

The jobs are there to give younger people work experience and some spending money before they move out to a better job that isn't as stressful and also pays them more.

You can keep saying this, but it doesn't make it true. If there are not enough people in this mythical demographic you say this job was made for, what happens then?

 

[el_super]

No business is going to increase its cost base, lower its cash flow, and generate a lower return for its investors intentionally. If a company (Disney or otherwise) felt that increasing the wages of their employees by 50% would generate a net return, they would do it. They obviously do not believe that paying the Small World attractions host 50% more will generate enough incremental return.

It is that simple.

It is not that simple at all. This isn't even half of an explanation of how wages work. There are lots of outside forces that dictate to the corporation how much they need to pay for a role, everything from minimum wage laws, to competition with other companies, and yes, even occasionally companies will pay more for nothing but the prestige.

Claiming that Disney will never pay CMs more than they can get a return on, is a cynical admission that Guest Service in the park is a pointless endeavour. That any negative experience provided by a CM will just be waved away and that people will always come to the park, no matter what level of service is provided.

You really believe that?

 

[CaptinEO]

You can keep saying this, but it doesn't make it true. If there are not enough people in this mythical demographic you say this job was made for, what happens then?

Entry level job market is a mythical demographic? You're blocked on my end now. Last of your insane posts I'll ever read.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Sorry but this is just so not true.

My father purchased his first home in 1975 in Silicon Valley for $25,000 on an entry level wage. It was only a few cents above minimum wage at the time, and he didn't have a college degree. He and my mother (who also worked an entry level position at the time) saved for a couple years in order to have a down payment to buy that house.

Just because it didn't happen for either your parents or grandparents doesn't mean it wasn't happening or wasn't common. I know PLENTY of people from that generation and older, including my grandparents, that ALL bought their first homes without college degrees and ALL started out in entry level positions.

Does that mean they all remained in entry level positions for life, no. But that is not the point, it just means they were about to secure housing on entry level wages.

The math works…

1974 minimum wage = $2.10 an hour, 40 hours a week = $84 a week, 4 weeks a month (avg) = $336, two workers = $672 a month pre tax = approximately $540 a month take home.

Mortgage on a $25,000 home = $205 a month.

You wouldn’t be able to afford one on a single income but with two full time incomes in the home you could.

They also bought an affordable home because the average home price in 1975 was $39,300 which would have been a $315 mortgage, probably a bit out of reach with even two full time incomes but not impossible.

For comparison sake with todays $15 an hour rate that would = $4800 gross a month with two full time incomes, approximately $3850 net, compared to your 1975 prices that would be a $1500 mortgage for an affordable home ($315,000 equivalent) or a $2245 mortgage on the average priced home ($475,000 equivalent). Anaheims current average home price is about $775,000.

Whats interesting is using an inflation adjuster online the $2.10 minimum wage in 1975 = $10.54 today so it really is more of a housing issue than a wage issue. $15 today has more purchasing power now than $2.10 did then, house prices are just astronomically high.

 

[flynnibus]

house prices are just astronomically high.

The impact of cheap lending...
Bad land planning...
and wacky localized issues like CA's property tax laws

 

[RobWDW1971]

Claiming that Disney will never pay CMs more than they can get a return on, is a cynical admission that Guest Service in the park is a pointless endeavour. That any negative experience provided by a CM will just be waved away and that people will always come to the park, no matter what level of service is provided.

You really believe that?

That's not what I said. I said Disney has obviously decided that there is no return on having the world's greatest Small World attraction host vs. just an average worker. If they thought having a better employee there would lead to a better return, they would pay accordingly.

Every business makes these decisions independently - In N Out and Chik Fil A have made the decision that by having smiling, happy, attentive, more presentable employees it creates a competitive advantage in the marketplace so they actively seek those employees and offer packages accordingly. McDonald's and Burger King do not believe they will get that return.

The Four Seasons believes the same about their guest facing employees, Comfort Inns does not.

Disney has obviously determined that having often untrained, unprofessional, and unhappy Cast Members serving you a popcorn or loading you into a Small World boat will not have a negative impact vs. the cost of hiring better employees. If anything, blame the Disney consumers who continue to pay top dollar for this level of service - that is why they have made that calculation.

That is the return decision they make. That is the return decision every business makes.

 

[TP2000]

I think by the simple fact that this is a Disneyland fan board it's fairly understood that all of us here like CM's and the jobs they perform in general.

Even with today's dramatically lowered expectations, there are still CM's out there who are fantastic, do a wonderful job, and have to put up with a lot of crap from clueless TDA execs who increasingly don't know about their own core product or customer experience.

But that does not change the fact that the vast majority of these CM jobs are routinely filled by 17 to 19 year olds who often have no previous work experience, some of whom haven't even completed their high school diploma yet, and who begin performing these jobs as CM's after only a week or so of training.

That's the very definition of an unskilled, entry-level job. That job is not worth $23 to $45 per hour to create a "Living Wage!" for that CM. Sorry, it's just not.

 

[TP2000]

You can keep saying this, but it doesn't make it true. If there are not enough people in this mythical demographic you say this job was made for, what happens then?

You start hiring 25 year olds to fill the jobs, or 38 year olds to fill the jobs. Or whoever willingly wanders in off Ball Road looking for a low-wage entry-level job to... fill the job.

 

[Sailor310]

Didn't anyone read the great DL worker study someone (sorry, couldn't find it to give you credit) posted here?

https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/UEPI/ERt Disneyland final 2-20-2018 (1).pdf

Sorry TP, per the stats below, lots of older folks work at DL:

An increasing portion of Disneyland Resort’s total labor force is 55 years of age or older, with the percentage doubling from 9% in 2002 to 18% in 2015. Meanwhile, the portion of workers under 30 has shrunk by roughly 13%, and now makes up about two-fifths of workers. The conception of Disneyland Resort workers as young people with few financial responsibilities does not match reality. For instance, the Disneyland survey results report that only one-sixth of workers, regardless of age, reported living with family or friends without having to pay rent. The age distribution of union workers represented by CRLU shows a similar story (Exhibit 55). Less than a third (32%) of workers are under 25 years of age, 14% are 55 years of age or older, and over half (54%) are in the prime working years of their lives – 25 to 54 years of age.

Despite steep increases in the cost of housing and other necessities, Disneyland workers have suffered steady pay cuts and continue to struggle to make ends meet.
 The average hourly wage for Disneyland Resort workers in real dollars dropped 15% from 2000 to 2017, from $15.80 to $13.36.
 Almost three-quarters (73%) say that they do not earn enough money to cover basic expenses every month.

Disneyland employees worry about keeping a roof over their heads.
 Over half (56%) of Disneyland Resort employees report concerns about being evicted from their homes or apartments.
 More than one out of ten (11%) Disneyland Resort employees – including 13% of employees with young children – report having been homeless – or not having a place of their own place to sleep – in the past two years.
 Over half (52%) of workers who rent their housing are overcrowded - squeezing too many family members, roommates or even multiple families into a unit that is too small to accommodate the number of occupants. Many Disneyland workers do not have reliable access to a sufficient quantity of affordable, nutritious food.
 More than two-thirds (68%) of Disneyland Resort workers are food insecure.
 Three-quarters (76%) of Disneyland Resort employees with children under 18 are food insecure.

Not to seem cold, but if you are 35 years old and you're worried about paying rent and having enough to eat, WHY ARE YOU STILL WORKING AT DISNEYLAND??? We all love the place, but not at the cost of sleeping in our cars and not having enough to eat.
Yes it would be nice if Disney would pay enough to live off of, but until/if they change their policies, why go hungry to work there?

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Not to seem cold, but if you are 35 years old and you're worried about paying rent and having enough to eat, WHY ARE YOU STILL WORKING AT DISNEYLAND??? We all love the place, but not at the cost of sleeping in our cars and not having enough to eat.
Yes it would be nice if Disney would pay enough to live off of, but until/if they change their policies, why go hungry to work there?

My guess is 1) they love working at Disneyland and/or 2) there isn’t a higher paying job available they want to work.

 

[RobWDW1971]

Didn't anyone read the great DL worker study someone (sorry, couldn't find it to give you credit) posted here?

https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/UEPI/ERt Disneyland final 2-20-2018 (1).pdf

Sorry TP, per the stats below, lots of older folks work at DL:

An increasing portion of Disneyland Resort’s total labor force is 55 years of age or older, with the percentage doubling from 9% in 2002 to 18% in 2015. Meanwhile, the portion of workers under 30 has shrunk by roughly 13%, and now makes up about two-fifths of workers. The conception of Disneyland Resort workers as young people with few financial responsibilities does not match reality. For instance, the Disneyland survey results report that only one-sixth of workers, regardless of age, reported living with family or friends without having to pay rent. The age distribution of union workers represented by CRLU shows a similar story (Exhibit 55). Less than a third (32%) of workers are under 25 years of age, 14% are 55 years of age or older, and over half (54%) are in the prime working years of their lives – 25 to 54 years of age.

Despite steep increases in the cost of housing and other necessities, Disneyland workers have suffered steady pay cuts and continue to struggle to make ends meet.
 The average hourly wage for Disneyland Resort workers in real dollars dropped 15% from 2000 to 2017, from $15.80 to $13.36.
 Almost three-quarters (73%) say that they do not earn enough money to cover basic expenses every month.

Disneyland employees worry about keeping a roof over their heads.
 Over half (56%) of Disneyland Resort employees report concerns about being evicted from their homes or apartments.
 More than one out of ten (11%) Disneyland Resort employees – including 13% of employees with young children – report having been homeless – or not having a place of their own place to sleep – in the past two years.
 Over half (52%) of workers who rent their housing are overcrowded - squeezing too many family members, roommates or even multiple families into a unit that is too small to accommodate the number of occupants. Many Disneyland workers do not have reliable access to a sufficient quantity of affordable, nutritious food.
 More than two-thirds (68%) of Disneyland Resort workers are food insecure.
 Three-quarters (76%) of Disneyland Resort employees with children under 18 are food insecure.

Not to seem cold, but if you are 35 years old and you're worried about paying rent and having enough to eat, WHY ARE YOU STILL WORKING AT DISNEYLAND??? We all love the place, but not at the cost of sleeping in our cars and not having enough to eat.
Yes it would be nice if Disney would pay enough to live off of, but until/if they change their policies, why go hungry to work there?

The challenge for these folks is that they are grown adults doing many jobs that require zero experience that a teenager off the street could do (and I was one of those teenagers and was waving a flash light on the parade route on my first day - it wasn't rocket science). So they have knowingly signed up for jobs that guarantee low wages based on required skill set. Nobody forced them to make that life choice.

The rest is supply and demand - if DL can fill 20K jobs at these wages there is no incentive to offer more, regardless of the financial issues of any of their employees. We are seeing living proof of labor supply/demand with the artificial labor shortage currently requiring hotels and restaurants to offer sign on bonuses, raises, etc. When the labor force rebalances, these incentives will go away.

What works (and has always worked) for DL is that the qualitative benefits and emotional connection to flipping burgers at Disneyland vs. across the street at McDonald's allows them to attract enough workers so they do not have to increase wages above the market.

As long as people keep streaming into Casting at these wages, they aren't going to increase wages.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Heard an ad on the radio tonight on KOGO AM 600 San Diego.

Careers at Hotel del Coronado

Voted a #1 place to work in the US by Fortune Magazine, explore job openings and career benefits of working at The Del, a living legend for more than 130 years.

hoteldel.com

 

[TP2000]

Didn't anyone read the great DL worker study someone (sorry, couldn't find it to give you credit) posted here?

https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/UEPI/ERt Disneyland final 2-20-2018 (1).pdf

Sorry TP, per the stats below, lots of older folks work at DL:

Oh, no, don't worry. I can clearly see there are older people working as CM's at Disneyland.

My only point is that the jobs they do are also easily and often taken by 18 year olds with no real work experience and at best a high school diploma. It's a job many 18 year olds can do after walking in off the street and going through a week or so of training.

But sometimes the person doing that job isn't 18, they are 40.

Not to seem cold, but if you are 35 years old and you're worried about paying rent and having enough to eat, WHY ARE YOU STILL WORKING AT DISNEYLAND??? We all love the place, but not at the cost of sleeping in our cars and not having enough to eat.

It's a valid question. You can also ask that question of a 35 year old man who gets a job as a WalMart cashier. Or a job working the drive-thru at McDonald's. Or scooping up beans and rice into bowls at Chipotle.

If they picked up Disneyland and moved it to Oklahoma City many front-line CM's could afford to buy a 3 bedroom house on their $17 an hour salary. But Disneyland is in Orange County, where the cost of housing and the cost of living is several times more expensive than Oklahoma or Georgia or Iowa or Ohio.

But that doesn't convince me that dusting churros in Frontierland or selling Christmas ornaments on Main Street (even if the fake proprietress is a time-traveling Puerto Rican woman of incredible wealth) should earn you a Living Wage of $23 to $45 per hour. Not when you can pay an unskilled 18 year old to do that job for $17 an hour.

 

[CaptinEO]

Not to seem cold, but if you are 35 years old and you're worried about paying rent and having enough to eat, WHY ARE YOU STILL WORKING AT DISNEYLAND??? We all love the place, but not at the cost of sleeping in our cars and not having enough to eat.
Yes it would be nice if Disney would pay enough to live off of, but until/if they change their policies, why go hungry to work there?

Not cold at all. If someone is in a crappy situation, why would they stay and expect different results? Are they pixie dusters that literally don't mind starving to be "part of the magic".

 

[Sailor310]

Heard an ad on the radio tonight on KOGO AM 600 San Diego.

Careers at Hotel del Coronado

Voted a #1 place to work in the US by Fortune Magazine, explore job openings and career benefits of working at The Del, a living legend for more than 130 years.

hoteldel.com

• "Complimentary meals" at the Hotel Del is what I call a benefit!