Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[smooch]

I don't understand how people have forgotten what a minimum wage is supposed to be, it was literally invented so any person who works a full work week can afford to live. Nobody is saying a father working on Space Mountain should be able to feed a family of 5. Not sure if the older people on the forum (genuinely mean no offense) have noticed how expensive it is for anyone to live nowadays. If I work a full work week at even the most basic position of a job I am supposed to be able to afford food and housing and basic needs. That's not possible. People have to work 2-3 jobs to afford just to live and not get evicted or starve. Not to mention the astronomical price of insulin that I will have to pay for myself in a few years once I'm off my parents' insurance.

I have a simple question, why should we not pay a wage where people can afford their basic needs to the people we consider "essential workers" that everyone truly saw were the backbone of our cities and economies when the pandemic hit. If they were so essential that they couldn't stop working during a global pandemic why should they have to work multiple jobs to be able to afford rent in an apartment they share with roommates. I worked a full work week during college at a sushi restaurant which included tips while also going to school full time. I had almost no free time, but I still couldn't afford any apartments near me. I live in a more well off area but I couldn't even afford to move to the "cheaper" areas, if I wanted to get an apartment near my college I couldn't even afford that while working a full work week with tips while also taking 6 classes in college. People aren't asking to be able to afford to own a home and provide for a family of 4 when they ask for minimum wage to go up, people want to be paid fairly for their labor. People want to be able to work one job during a full work week without being homeless or starving. What happened since the minimum wage was created, do people not deserve to be able to live even if they work a full work week?

 

[TP2000]

Anyway this whole argument might be moot anyhow, since it is starting to sound like Disney is caving to the union demands for increased wages.

It's the specific union that covers ride operators and shopclerks that is currently in negotiations, right? (Correction: I see below it also covers Custodial, main entry CM's, Parking CM's, and a few others, for a total of 10,000 hourly CM's.)

It sounds like Disney is offering them a starting wage increase to $17.00 per hour beginning next month, and then a fifty cent raise in '22 and '23 to take the starting wage up to $18.00 an hour 18 months from now in June, 2023.

So a teenager getting a summer job sweeping or cashiering at Disneyland will get $17.00 per hour next summer, and $18.00 per hour the summer after next.

Again, it's interesting that market forces and a private business negotiating on its own already gets to $18 an hour without the failed Measure L initiative from UNITE HERE.

 

[Heppenheimer]

This is a great point, do we really have a housing shortage or is it a fake shortage caused by investors? Maybe a “simple” solution is to limit the number of homes a person or business can own.

Some of this may even be unintended consequences of legislation, I have a friend with two rental homes, I think both are section 8 approved (one is for sure) so he gets checks every month from his tenants and larger checks every month from the government. Both have been occupied by the same families as long as I’ve known him, it’s very profitable for him and he never has to worry about rent.

I think this only has a real effect in certain already very overpriced markets, like the examples I gave, and it certainly isn't the primary driver. More of an excess add-on to an already rather bad situation.

Another issue is foreign investors buying up property, mainly because they want to park their wealth in what they deem a "safe" country where they don't need to fear random and capricious government expropriation if they find themselves on the wrong side of of a political argument...looking at you, China and Russia...

 

[TP2000]

I just calculated it out, and based on the all normal costs of living it would be about $22 per hour or approx. 65% higher than the average rent in the area.

So yeah I would tie any starting wage or "living wage" to be between 65-75% higher then the average rent in the area.

Okay, that's very helpful. And it aligns with what MIT says is the "Living Wage" for OC currently; about $22.50 per hour.

It's just frustrating to have this conversation about "Living Wage!" when the people arguing for it won't even say what it is. It's good of you to put out a dollar figure that's real!

Now the question becomes... Does a job like the ones Disneyland offers that require no formal education and skills that can be trained to an 18 year old in a few days warrant a starting wage of $22.50 per hour?

And if an 18 or 20 year old kid can sweep up napkins at Disneyland for $22.50 per hour to start, what does that do to all the other jobs that do require learned skills or formal education that start in the $20.00 to $26.00 per hour range? Disneyland jobs like truck drivers, mechanics, plumbers, stage techs, costumers, seamstresses, etc., etc.???

 

[Darkbeer1]

I don't understand how people have forgotten what a minimum wage is supposed to be, it was literally invented so any person who works a full work week can afford to live. Nobody is saying a father working on Space Mountain should be able to feed a family of 5. Not sure if the older people on the forum (genuinely mean no offense) have noticed how expensive it is for anyone to live nowadays. If I work a full work week at even the most basic position of a job I am supposed to be able to afford food and housing and basic needs. That's not possible. People have to work 2-3 jobs to afford just to live and not get evicted or starve. Not to mention the astronomical price of insulin that I will have to pay for myself in a few years once I'm off my parents' insurance.

I have a simple question, why should we not pay a wage where people can afford their basic needs to the people we consider "essential workers" that everyone truly saw were the backbone of our cities and economies when the pandemic hit. If they were so essential that they couldn't stop working during a global pandemic why should they have to work multiple jobs to be able to afford rent in an apartment they share with roommates. I worked a full work week during college at a sushi restaurant which included tips while also going to school full time. I had almost no free time, but I still couldn't afford any apartments near me. I live in a more well off area but I couldn't even afford to move to the "cheaper" areas, if I wanted to get an apartment near my college I couldn't even afford that while working a full work week with tips while also taking 6 classes in college. People aren't asking to be able to afford to own a home and provide for a family of 4 when they ask for minimum wage to go up, people want to be paid fairly for their labor. People want to be able to work one job during a full work week without being homeless or starving. What happened since the minimum wage was created, do people not deserve to be able to live even if they work a full work week?

Simple answer, Inflation.

If you raise labor costs, then all other sectors get more expensive.

We are seeing that currently in the US Economy.

The Negative Effects of Raising Minimum Wage in America

Do the negative effects of raising minimum wage outweigh the benefits? Is $15 per hour the right number? Maybe not if you want cheap goods and services.

moneyqanda.com

How Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage Could Affect Employment and Family Income | Congressional Budget Office

This interactive tool, updated in January 30, 2024, allows users to explore how various policies to increase the federal minimum wage would affect earnings, employment, family income, and poverty.

www.cbo.gov

Examining the Effects of Raising the Federal Minimum Wage to $15 - AAF

Executive Summary The Biden Administration has proposed to more than double the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $15 an hour. While a $15 minimum wage could help some employed workers, the available data on the supply and demand side of the labor market suggest that it would price others out...

www.americanactionforum.org

 

[TP2000]

Another issue is foreign investors buying up property, mainly because they want to park their wealth in what they deem a "safe" country where they don't need to fear random and capricious government expropriation if they find themselves on the wrong side of of a political argument...looking at you, China and Russia...

BINGO!

Instead of mandating stuff like solar panels on all new construction in California that will only drive up the cost of housing even more, I would have absolutely no problem passing a law that forbids foreigners from buying single family homes in the USA.

Orange County is a hotbed of that real estate activity to foreigners, mostly Chinese people who have nowhere else to put their investment money and want a quick out when the Communist regime inevitably takes a very dark turn later this decade or next. Or it simply collapses under its own real estate bubble it's created itself in Communist China. (I understand why those Chinese citizens are buying houses here, but America's youth trying to start a family should not have to subsidize the investment strategy of Chinese people scared of their own Communist government.)

Either way, the price of OC housing is elevated because of all that foreign money buying up houses here.

 

[smooch]

Simple answer, Inflation.

If you raise labor costs, then all other sectors get more expensive.

We are seeing that currently in the US Economy.

The Negative Effects of Raising Minimum Wage in America

Do the negative effects of raising minimum wage outweigh the benefits? Is $15 per hour the right number? Maybe not if you want cheap goods and services.

moneyqanda.com

How Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage Could Affect Employment and Family Income | Congressional Budget Office

This interactive tool, updated in January 30, 2024, allows users to explore how various policies to increase the federal minimum wage would affect earnings, employment, family income, and poverty.

www.cbo.gov

Examining the Effects of Raising the Federal Minimum Wage to $15 - AAF

Executive Summary The Biden Administration has proposed to more than double the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $15 an hour. While a $15 minimum wage could help some employed workers, the available data on the supply and demand side of the labor market suggest that it would price others out...

www.americanactionforum.org

I understand that, I guess I am just saying that people seem to have forgotten what the minimum wage was created to do. Obviously it's a very intricate topic with so many influences that affect it, but I don't understand how anyone can claim someone working a full work week shouldn't be able to afford to provide for their most basic needs, it's cruel. Work a low level job full time and be able to provide yourself with just the basics. Work a higher level, more complicated job and be able to have a nicer place, nicer things, etc.

I guess one other thing is many people even here bring up you shouldn't be able to live on your own if you flip burgers cause it's a position for high schoolers. I can also guarantee many of those same people go to fast food places at times like during lunch or late at night or in the morning before work. Those people working there aren't gonna be high school students at those hours, they have school to be at. These jobs are not just for high school kids, we have to have people outside of school working them unless we want to close every fast food restaurant during school hours. I guess that's what's bothering me, there are no distinctly high school student jobs quite honestly.

 

[Disney Irish]

Okay, that's very helpful. And it aligns with what MIT says is the "Living Wage" for OC currently; about $22.50 per hour.

It's just frustrating to have this conversation about "Living Wage!" when the people arguing for it won't even say what it is. It's good of you to put out a dollar figure that's real!

Now the question becomes... Does a job like the ones Disneyland offers that require no formal education and skills that can be trained to an 18 year old in a few days warrant a starting wage of $22.50 per hour?

And if an 18 or 20 year old kid can sweep up napkins at Disneyland for $22.50 per hour to start, what does that do to all the other jobs that do require learned skills or formal education that start in the $20.00 to $26.00 per hour range? Disneyland jobs like truck drivers, mechanics, plumbers, stage techs, costumers, seamstresses, etc., etc.???

Would you be surprised to learn, I know I was, that of all union CMs, only 32% are under the age of 25. Our friends at Oxy College (Go Tigers!) did a study that gave us these numbers along with a whole host of other information- https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/UEPI/ERt Disneyland final 2-20-2018 (1).pdf

So the vast majority of CMs at these positions are less likely to be filled by 18-20 yr olds.

Point is yes, if we're talking about a "Living Wage", then these same CMs starting out deserve these wages. And then any skilled position goes up from there.

But this gets back into the flip side of the conversation that I tried to start. Which is if housing costs weren't so much then a lower "Living Wage" would be warranted.

 

[TP2000]

These jobs are not just for high school kids, we have to have people outside of school working them unless we want to close every fast food restaurant during school hours. I guess that's what's bothering me, there are no distinctly high school student jobs quite honestly.

Those are all very valid points.

We use the phrase "high school jobs" because many of these jobs can be easily filled and handled competently enough by teenagers in their Junior or Senior year of high school. It doesn't mean that they are only filled by high schoolers, it just means that the job task itself is not complicated enough to require a high school diploma or advanced life experience.

A high school Senior attending Canyon High can walk in off Ball Road right now and get a job sweeping or bussing tables or operating the Teacups at Disneyland for $17 an hour. A 40 year old man can also walk in 10 minutes later and get that same job. Both people can be just as competent in doing the assigned job tasks.

The question here is... Should a 40 year old man operating the Teacups expect to earn more than $17 an hour when a high school Senior could also do that job? And why would any business willingly pay a higher cost of labor for a job that an 18 year old kid can happily do for pizza and surfboard money?

 

[smooch]

Those are all very valid points.

We use the phrase "high school jobs" because many of these jobs can be easily filled and handled competently enough by teenagers in their Junior or Senior year of high school. It doesn't mean that they are only filled by high schoolers, it just means that the job task itself is not complicated enough to require a high school diploma or advanced life experience.

A high school Senior attending Canyon High can walk in off Ball Road right now and get a job sweeping or bussing tables or operating the Teacups at Disneyland for $17 an hour. A 40 year old man can also walk in 10 minutes later and get that same job. Both people can be just as competent in doing the assigned job tasks.

The question here is... Should a 40 year old man operating the Teacups expect to earn more than $17 an hour when a high school Senior could also do that job? And why would any business willingly pay a higher cost of labor for a job that an 18 year old kid can happily do for pizza and surfboard money?

No, they both should be paid what is calculated to be the minimum wage necessary to afford your basic necessities. The high school student will not earn as much as the 40 year old man, the high school student won't be working a full work week. They have school and other things preventing them from working a full work week. A person who has that one job and works there for a full work week should be able to afford everything I've talked about before. The high school student doesn't work as much as someone who works their as their full time job, therefore the student will earn less money despite having the same hourly wage. Just because someone isn't going to be spending their wage on living on their own if they work while in high school doesn't mean they should earn less.

 

[TP2000]

No, they both should be paid what is calculated to be the minimum wage necessary to afford your basic necessities. The high school student will not earn as much as the 40 year old man, the high school student won't be working a full work week. They have school and other things preventing them from working a full work week. A person who has that one job and works there for a full work week should be able to afford everything I've talked about before. The high school student doesn't work as much as someone who works their as their full time job, therefore the student will earn less money despite having the same hourly wage. Just because someone isn't going to be spending their wage on living on their own if they work while in high school doesn't mean they should earn less.

Okay, so it sounds like you are of the opinion that the "Living Wage" of $22.50 for OC in 2021 is what the new 40 year old CM should earn.

The high school kid also earns $22.50 an hour, but works there 18 or 20 hours per week instead of 40 hours per week.

But that still creates a situation where you are paying people $22.50 to start for entry-level jobs at Disneyland. That's not sustainable, and it only creates fewer CM jobs and prices Disneyland even higher for tickets, food, t-shirts, etc.

My opinion is that the current offer of a starting wage of $17 per hour for many CM departments is pretty fair. I might like to see it a dollar or so higher, again due to all the hassles of working at Disneyland while also bringing back higher grooming standards, but $17 to start in '21 and $18 to start next summer is pretty darn good.

And the boys get to wear spangly-dangly earrings and purple nail polish to their Frontierland shift, and the girls can show all their awesome leg tats on Main Street USA.

I'm actually surprised how quickly the CM wages have risen in the past decade!

 

[Disney Irish]

That's not sustainable....

The whole situation is not sustainable, that is the point.

Wages aren't where they should be overall across this country, most economists I've seen agree with that. Housing costs are through the roof and also not sustainable, again most economists I've seen agree with that as well.

So we have a huge issue in this country and its not going to be easy to fix. Point is something has to happen, the question is what and how much is it going to require from us the consumer and what and how much is it going to require governmental regulation. But you can't just leave it up to the free market alone, as we've done that for the past 50+ years and that is what got us into this mess.

 

[CaptinEO]

It is a Disney issue. It is currently impacting Disney employees. If the unions go on strike, and the park shuts down, how far is the "these aren't living jobs" excuse going to take Disney?

You can't complain about long lines at QSR locations, and then turn around and pretend that wages don't have an impact on that.

The Unions can do what they want, but they aren't going to get 80 grand a year for themepark workers. Disney would go broke.

 

[RobWDW1971]

Sure, like I said, this isn't hard to estimate. The consensus estimates from economists based on US census data for people living in Los Angeles and Orange Counties are:



$12/hour



The second job is immaterial - wages here doesn't mean what you're paid per job, but what your total earnings from labor are. $41.55/hour



$47.75/hour



Retired folks don't earn wages. Hopefully he saved for retirement.

There are a variety of reasons why you wouldn't want to scale the minimum wage with demographic characteristics, but the main one is that it would undo one of the main reasons you want a living wage policy in the first place - to correct inefficiencies in labor markets. The idea that it is impractical to calculate the living wage just isn't a good argument, though there might be other reasons to be concerned. Inflation, for example, is a reasonable thing to be worried about. As I mentioned in an earlier post, though, the economic evidence suggests that living wage increases are not inflationary.

The misunderstand here is treating the living wage debate as one about fairness or morality. It seems unfair to us that a single mother should make the same amount as a teenager living at home, but that isn't what the living wage is about. A living wage is really about supply and demand in labor markets.

So I'm still trying to understand specifically, in the real world, what you are proposing.

So if I am the HR recruiting coordinator at Disneyland who has four openings for Small World attraction hosts. Those four people come in one by one (including the retired teacher who still wants to work). Are you suggesting that I interview each one to understand their age, marital status, living situation, net worth, etc. and then look at some table to determine how I pay each of them their "living wage"? What exactly are you proposing?

Also, your last comment is the most confusing (A living wage is really about supply and demand in labor markets.). The free market always sets the price for labor and skills based on supply and demand. Whether it is for movie actors, sports stars, doctors, lawyers, or attraction hosts. The marketplace values your skills, what value you add to an organization (usually in the form of financial return or status), amount of readily available labor for your skill set, amount of available jobs for that skill, etc. and sets the value of those jobs in the marketplace.

When I was in college, I had minimal work experience and marketable skills and I got a job at the park working attractions and the parade route. I lived with three incredibly stinky, messy roommates because that is all my skills could afford. Over time, I learned more skills, got increasingly more responsibility, moved up and out as needed, and eventually could be aggressive in setting my price in the marketplace. That is how it works in a free market society and how it will always work.

It may sound "old school" and harsh to say it out loud - but the marketplace pays you what you are worth. If you believe your skills have more value than your current employer is willing to pay for them, go to another employer. If there aren't employers willing to pay you more for your skills, then that is what your skills are worth in the marketplace.

Learn more skills. Add more value. Increase demand for your labor. Make more money.

 

[TP2000]

So I'm still trying to understand specifically, in the real world, what you are proposing.

Don't bother.

He, and many like him (because I'm honestly not picking on him specifically, but his own statements that are such crystal-clear examples of this) won't ever go on record saying that what he really means is that the "Living Wage!" is $45 per hour to operate the Teacups. That's the amount it would take for a single mother with one child to afford a home and a comfy middle-class life in OC.

Or at the very least, $22.50 an hour to operate the Teacups for a single 20 year old guy to have his own apartment near the bars in Fullerton. (Bar tab not included.)

Even though all they are doing is operating the Teacups. A job task that a 17 year old who hasn't yet earned their high school diploma can also do with about 3 or 4 days of training.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I went to "Anaheim Confidential" tonight, a live presentation by the APD of a past case. In this case, it involves the creepiest CM I have ever heard of, Steven Gordon and his friend Franc Cano. Steven was a CM when he met his wife, a fellow CM.

All I am going to say is google search the CM's name, or find the Dateline episode.

How much should he have gotten paid as a CM?

 

[Darkbeer1]

I went to "Anaheim Confidential" tonight, a live presentation by the APD of a past case. In this case, it involves the creepiest CM I have ever heard of, Steven Gordon and his friend Franc Cano. Steven was a CM when he met his wife, a fellow CM.

All I am going to say is google search the CM's name, or find the Dateline episode.

How much should he have gotten paid as a CM?

The Dateline Episode is called "Good & Evil", Season 25, Episode 30. available free at Peacock TV

 

[smooch]

Okay, so it sounds like you are of the opinion that the "Living Wage" of $22.50 for OC in 2021 is what the new 40 year old CM should earn.

The high school kid also earns $22.50 an hour, but works there 18 or 20 hours per week instead of 40 hours per week.

But that still creates a situation where you are paying people $22.50 to start for entry-level jobs at Disneyland. That's not sustainable, and it only creates fewer CM jobs and prices Disneyland even higher for tickets, food, t-shirts, etc.

My opinion is that the current offer of a starting wage of $17 per hour for many CM departments is pretty fair. I might like to see it a dollar or so higher, again due to all the hassles of working at Disneyland while also bringing back higher grooming standards, but $17 to start in '21 and $18 to start next summer is pretty darn good.

And the boys get to wear spangly-dangly earrings and purple nail polish to their Frontierland shift, and the girls can show all their awesome leg tats on Main Street USA.

I'm actually surprised how quickly the CM wages have risen in the past decade!

Well one of the reasons it isn't sustainable is because companies just want to generate as much profit as possible to line the pockets of the executives. I understand higher level jobs pay more, not saying the CEO should earn minimum wage, but you have to admit CEOs nowadays are paid astronomically more than they were before while paying people comparatively less than they would've been paid for the same job decades ago. Again, very complicated situation, tons of sides of the problem. Disney would not go bankrupt if they were forced to pay all their CMs $22.50, not even close, but Bob and the higher ups wouldn't be able to afford their 3rd yachts each so they don't want to pay the people working in their parks a wage they can live off of if they work at the parks full time.

I do wholeheartedly believe many jobs even higher level jobs are underpaid. So when people ask "why would someone work a more complicated job if they can flip burgers for $22.50" it's because the person who has more skill and training at their job isn't being paid the full value of their labor as well. There's no way anyone can claim that people across the country aren't paid what they deserve when 80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and would be financially ruined if they have an emergency that costs $200 or more. So yeah I think $22.50 / hour in OC is what minimum wage should be, and I think the jobs there that aren't entry level should be even higher than that. That's aside from "companies can't afford that" because especially with big companies rather than mom and pop shops / restaurants they certainly can afford it they just don't want to so the shareholders can be happier at the expense of the people generating the revenue day to day.

I do understand there are plenty of small businesses that barely make it as is and higher wages would affect that, but also maybe if people were earning more money with livable wages there would be more money in the economy to fund these businesses as well. I know that's a very very simplified view but I don't want to get to deep into economics, I have had enough of that this semester with my intermediate micro and macro economics classes.

To be honest, there isn't any right or wrong answer here. I am simply stating that I truly believe Americans everywhere are being severely underpaid for the labor they provide and that it is a broken system if so many people have to work 2 to 3 jobs just to put food on the table and a roof over their head. Even entry level jobs are essential, thus the people working their jobs no matter how "easy" they are deserve to be paid accordingly. Not to mention that working in fast food places and restaurants are not so easy. Yes high school students and people of many ages could easily learn the skills quickly for these jobs but I have worked service and food industry and you truly deal with people at their worst. I much prefer my office job where our clients are polite and respectful, but even in a nice restaurant and in a retail store I would get yelled at for stuff I did not do and had no part in. I had to be on my feet my entire shift even when nobody was around. If I made one minor mistake that took me 5 seconds to correct the customer would often become furious and verbally harass me. I definitely think people in these jobs who are treated as servants and subhuman deserve to be paid more than they do for the people they have to deal with. Even with Covid we have seen so many people working food / retail ask people to put on a mask due to company policy not their personal beliefs and people would scream at them and harass them. So on that end I do think those jobs are underpaid for what they put up with because of our country's "the customer is always right" attitude that has made so many people so entitled that they treat others like dirt.

 

[el_super]

The Unions can do what they want, but they aren't going to get 80 grand a year for themepark workers. Disney would go broke.

Ok... So what is your solution to solving the food insecurity issues and homelessness among CMs? How do you propose they improve VM morale and attract enough CMs to provide the level of service you keep pining for at the discount rate you pay for entrance?

Maybe Disney could do them a favor and automatically sign them up for food stamps when they get hired?

 

[el_super]

All I am going to say is google search the CM's name, or find the Dateline episode.

How much should he have gotten paid as a CM?

LOL wut? You think the level of pay someone should receive is based entirely on whether someone practicing that profession ever committed a crime?

And you work in politics?