Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[Disney Irish]

Such a notion is not tied to agreeing about affordable housing or not - but such a proposition is a direct attack on the fundamentals of personal property and liberties.. You'd be basically be facing constitutional challenges. That's why it would never fly. It's a government intrusion that most wouldn't tolerate.

and the idea of 'keeping the government out of my buying decisions' is not some boomer-only concept.

In fact I will expand upon this further, there are already some limitations in place.

Most banking regulations don't allow more than 10 conventional mortgages to be held at one time. So the idea of limiting housing purchases is already in place. Nothing to prevent that regulation to be lowered and expanded.

So there is nothing in the constitution that limits the power of the government on limiting the amount of properties that can be purchased. Especially if its for the greater good of allowing other citizens the right to purchase property.

 

[flynnibus]

Yeah... that was the point. You're shooting down an idea without really offering up any alternative.

Which is perfectly valid. You don't need a better step before knowing a certain step is bad. I don't need to tell you what to do with a hot iron before telling you not to touch it.

You seemed to suggest that unintended consequences should scare people away from taking a specific action, but failure to act can also have unintended consequences.

Because the audience fails to address the consquence of the action they believe is so clearly a good choice. It's not.

 

[CaptinEO]

That's all that really needs to be said here. People in this thread are getting way too hung up on the idea of a living wage because it's an easy talking point to try to tear down. It's a a cheap and easy way of thinking they know the situation without having to really challenge themselves. It is of course, far more nuanced than that.

To bring this closer to home, SF Gate quoted a 2018 survey of Disneyland of Disneyland Cast Members and found that:

• 11% of Disneyland employees reported experiencing homelessness in the previous two years,
• 68% were food insecure
• 73% said they do not earn enough for basic living expenses

These points have real world consequences to the people expressing them. Someone can adopt the most cynical position in the world that unskilled labor should be cheap, that the job market should dictate wages, or that the CMs are just downright responsible for their own financial well-being, but you're still missing the bigger point. How the CMs working in the park feel. How they are able to do their job every day. It's tough to put on a happy face and serve guests to the level people expect at Disneyland, when you don't know where your next meal is coming from.


Long story short: if you're concerned about the guest experience, and how CMs are treating people in the park, advocate for higher wages and greater benefits for Cast Members.

This isn't a Disney issue though. This is any minimum wage job. They aren't living jobs. Every company can't give every employee 80 grand a year. It's not gonna happen.

If every job had to pay 80k minimum, all the skilled jobs would have mass resignations unless their pay also shifted. No way am I going to have the responsibility I do now instead of just being a shelf stocker at home depot.

 

[flynnibus]

In fact I will expand upon this further, there are already some limitations in place.

Most banking regulations don't allow more than 10 conventional mortgages to be held at one time. So the idea of limiting housing purchases is already in place. Nothing to prevent that regulation to be lowered and expanded.

You are comparing completely different things.

Banking standard on lending (even if the standard if tied back to Federally backed loans) is nothing like trying to pass laws on what people can own. Because you are comparing lending standards to what you are allowed to do. Apples and oranges.

If Bank ABC won't lend you the money because of the constraint, you've created a market for Bank XYZ to take that business.

So there is nothing in the constitution that limits the power of the government on limiting the amount of properties that can be purchased.

That statement exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of the Constitution. The Constitution only enables certain powers -- things outside of those powers the Fed doesn't have - are deferred to the states. The absence of it is the very principal of why it's limited. This is the issue.. you can't make laws over things you don't have authority over.

 

[el_super]

This isn't a Disney issue though. This is any minimum wage job. They aren't living jobs.

It is a Disney issue. It is currently impacting Disney employees. If the unions go on strike, and the park shuts down, how far is the "these aren't living jobs" excuse going to take Disney?

You can't complain about long lines at QSR locations, and then turn around and pretend that wages don't have an impact on that.

 

[flynnibus]

Sorry but the constitution doesn't guarantee a person is entitled to purchasing 2 or more properties. Limiting purchases of goods is something we do in this country, and is completely legal. From number of tickets for a concert to amount of a specific item that can be purchased at a store, a house is no different.

Again, you lump completely different ideas together. A venue or artist limiting tickets per customer has absolutely nothing to do with government intervention with ownership of property.

In fact in a lot of metro areas you can't buy the land anymore, as its owned by the county or state. You can only purchase the property on the land, but not the land itself. Which completely throws the constitutional definition of "property" out the window anyways, since property at the time meant land.

You are talking about things you clearly don't understand the fundamentals constraining things and hopping all around as if everything were the same. Good grief.

 

[TP2000]

This is very true. But unless there is a complete housing market reset, which is never likely going to happen for a variety of reasons, its very unlikely we'll ever have any meaningful affordable housing in this country.

You accidentally added an 'r' to the word county.

It's unlikely we'll ever have meaningful affordable housing in Orange County, but in the rest of the country affordable housing for families can often be plentiful.

Oklahoma City, 3 Beds/2 Bath rambler, 1600 Sqft., Needs new wallpaper in dining room!, $120,000

1917 N Sterling Ave, Oklahoma City, OK | MLS #983734 | Zillow

For sale This 1607 square foot single family home has 3 bedrooms and 2.0 bathrooms. It is located at 1917 N Sterling Ave Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

www.zillow.com

Macon, 3Beds/2 Bath, 1450 Sqft., Huge woodsy backyard!, $105,000

1055 McCall Rd, Macon, GA 31217 | MLS #216578 | Zillow

For sale: $105,000. Being Sold AS IS. GREAT for the price! Cozy 3-bedroom, 2 bath home situated in an established neighborhood with lots of potential. Home was in the process of being renovated. Seller is leaving laminate flooring, kitchen tile, bathroom floor and wall tile, new kitchen sink...

www.zillow.com

Do you live in affluent Orange County or Santa Clara County? No.

Do you raise a family in safety and security and suburban middle class comfort? Yes.

 

[Darkbeer1]

>>The Fifth Amendment protects the right to private property in two ways. First, it states that a person may not be deprived of property by the government without “due process of law,” or fair procedures. In addition, it sets limits on the traditional practice of eminent domain, such as when the government takes private property to build a public road. <<

Privacy & Property Rights | Rights | CONSTITUTION USA with Peter Sagal | PBS

The Bill of Rights offers protections, but their interpretation has varied over time. Learn more about these amendments and how they're applied.

www.pbs.org

 

[TP2000]

These conversations about a "Living Wage" really get lost in the political muck, but loses sight on one important factor. Wages haven't kept up with the rest of the market.

No, the conversation about "Living Wage" gets lost in the fact that proponents of a "Living Wage" don't actually want to go on record as saying what they think that hourly wage is.

I'm happy to go on record stating what I think the wage scale should be for Disneyland's entry-level jobs that require a high school diploma and only a few days of training; from about $15.00 for tipped positions like waiters, to $17.50 for ride operators, to about $20.00 for security guards (But they have to do much better when fights break out in Toontown).

What's a Living Wage in Orange County in the 2020's? According to MIT it's $22.50 an hour for a single person, or $45.00 an hour for an unmarried woman with one child.

So @Disney Irish or @el_super, what is your Living Wage exactly for entry-level jobs at Disneyland? Do brand new CM's start at $22.50 an hour or do they start at $45.00 an hour?

 

[Disney Irish]

>>The Fifth Amendment protects the right to private property in two ways. First, it states that a person may not be deprived of property by the government without “due process of law,” or fair procedures. In addition, it sets limits on the traditional practice of eminent domain, such as when the government takes private property to build a public road. <<

Privacy & Property Rights | Rights | CONSTITUTION USA with Peter Sagal | PBS

The Bill of Rights offers protections, but their interpretation has varied over time. Learn more about these amendments and how they're applied.

www.pbs.org

That in itself doesn't state that limits can't be put on the amount of property or type of property that can be purchased.

Just because it hasn't been challenged in this way previously doesn't mean it can't.

 

[Darkbeer1]

No, the conversation about "Living Wage" gets lost in the fact that proponents of a "Living Wage" don't actually want to go on record as saying what they think that hourly wage is.

I'm happy to go on record stating what I think the wage scale should be for Disneyland's entry-level jobs that require not even a high school diploma and only a few days of training; from about $15.00 for tipped positions like waiters, to $17.50 for ride operators, to about $20.00 for security guards.

What's a Living Wage in Orange County in the 2020's? According to MIT it's $22.50 an hour for a single person, or $45.00 an hour for an unmarried woman with one child.

So @Disney Irish or @el_super, what is your Living Wage exactly for entry-level jobs at Disneyland? Do brand new CM's start at $22.50 an hour or do they start at $45.00 an hour?

For example, Measure L did not state an idea, it had concrete dollar amounts, and a well known inflation rate to determine a wage.

Laws need firm rules to be understandable.

 

[Disney Irish]

So @Disney Irish or @el_super, what is your Living Wage exactly for entry-level jobs at Disneyland? Do brand new CM's start at $22.50 an hour or do they start at $45.00 an hour?

I don't need to specifically state a number because I'm not trying to argue that.

But if I were to put a number on it, it would be at least 10% higher than the median rental price in the area of the business.

 

[TP2000]

For example, Measure L did not state an idea, it had concrete dollar amounts, and a well known inflation rate to determine a wage.

Laws need firm rules to be understandable.

What's even more interesting is that purely by market forces, many entry-level jobs at Disneyland now start at or slightly above the Measure L "Living Wage" of $18 an hour in 2022.

You won't be able to live out your dream of working at the Haunted Mansion for that rate (ride ops starts at $15.50 currently), you'll need to take a less glamorous job of security guard or bathroom custodian, but you can make that wage if you can get the job.

Plus the benefits and perks that come with Disneyland employment.

 

[TP2000]

I don't need to specifically state a number because I'm not trying to argue that.

But if I were to put a number on it, it would be at least 10% higher than the median rental price in the area of the business.

So, the starting wage would be 10% higher than the median monthly rental price of a 1 Bedroom apartment in the area? I'm assuming that figure is for 40 hours per week of work?

 

[TP2000]

For example, Measure L did not state an idea, it had concrete dollar amounts, and a well known inflation rate to determine a wage.

But it was a wage that wasn't legally applicable to the Disneyland Resort. Oops!

 

[Disney Irish]

So, the starting wage would be 10% higher than the median monthly rental price of a 1 Bedroom apartment in the area? I'm assuming that figure is for 40 hours per week of work?

That is just a quick round figure, I didn't calculate it out. It could be more for all I know, that is why I said "at least".

Point is that it should be some percentage more than the average rent in the area. Whatever that percentage maybe I'd have to really calculate it out when you include all other costs of living.

 

[flynnibus]

So you rapidly increase the # of people looking to rent in an area because they are now equipped with enough dollars in their pockets... yet the number of rentals doesn't change, nor does availability open up.

What do you think that will do to the rents charged and the resulting affordability of the wage rate you just set?

 

[TP2000]

That is just a quick round figure, I didn't calculate it out. It could be more for all I know, that is why I said "at least".

Point is that it should be some percentage more than the average rent in the area. Whatever that percentage maybe I'd have to really calculate it out when you include all other costs of living.

I just Googled, and the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Orange County in 2021 is now $2,150 per month. https://patch.com/california/orange-county/fair-market-rent-rates-orange-county-area

Can we round up to $2,500 per month to get to your figure? Although that only gives our mythical CM $350 per month for food and necessities. My hunch is that it's closer to $800 per month for that stuff for a single young person, but let's go with $350 for a total of $2,500 per month.

That requires an hourly wage after taxes of $15.62. That seems very low.

That's also less than entry-level Disneyland CM's currently start at in almost all departments, without any government mandate on those wages from Anaheim.

I think it's smarter to stick with the, um, smart folks at MIT. They claim the Living Wage for a single person in OC is $22.50 per hour. Or $45.00 per hour for a single mother with 1 child. (Which is an argument why you want to avoid becoming a single mother with 1 child with only a high school diploma selling churros at Disneyland.)

 

[el_super]

So you rapidly increase the # of people looking to rent in an area because they are now equipped with enough dollars in their pockets... yet the number of rentals doesn't change, nor does availability open up.

You're only focusing on one small area though (housing), which does need a different tool set to address. But when you're talking about food insecurity or basic necessities, a wage increase would help.

Anyway this whole argument might be moot anyhow, since it is starting to sound like Disney is caving to the union demands for increased wages.

 

[Disney Irish]

I just Googled, and the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Orange County in 2021 is now $2,150 per month. https://patch.com/california/orange-county/fair-market-rent-rates-orange-county-area

Can we round up to $2,500 per month to get to your figure? Although that only gives our mythical CM $350 per month for food and necessities. My hunch is that it's closer to $800 per month for that stuff for a single young person, but let's go with $350 for a total of $2,500 per month.

That requires an hourly wage after taxes of $15.62. That seems very low.

That's also less than entry-level Disneyland CM's currently start at in almost all departments, without any government mandate on those wages from Anaheim.

I think it's smarter to stick with the, um, smart folks at MIT. They claim the Living Wage for a single person in OC is $22.50 per hour. Or $45.00 per hour for a single mother with 1 child. (Which is an argument why you want to avoid becoming a single mother with 1 child with only a high school diploma selling churros at Disneyland.)

I just calculated it out, and based on the all normal costs of living it would be about $22 per hour or approx. 65% higher than the average rent in the area.

So yeah I would tie any starting wage or "living wage" to be between 65-75% higher then the average rent in the area.