Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[TP2000]

Most people at the bottom of the income ladder are making incredible efforts everyday to support themselves and their families. We need to make sure that the labor markets pay the value of service industry work AND technical/trade skills. One is not better than the other.

So... what's your starting wage for a Tomorrowland Terrace busboy and a Disneyland ride operator?

I've got $17.50 an hour for the ride operator, and $18.00 an hour for the busboy.

But they both have to get haircuts and remove their spangly earrings before they start their shift.

 

[TP2000]

At least Costco is under $4. Paid $3.93 in Fullerton last week. A couple of miles north of the DLR on Harbor.

Just checked Gasbuddy. For 87 Octane Regular, it's between $4.45 and $4.79 at the Ball Road stations near Disneyland. But you have to pay cash to get that price. Use a card and it's 10 cents more per gallon.

If your car requires 91 Octane Premium, the price at these same stations is from $4.99 to $5.17 a gallon. Cash price. If you use a card it's going to be a dime more per gallon.

 

[RobWDW1971]

Most people at the bottom of the income ladder are making incredible efforts everyday to support themselves and their families. We need to make sure that the labor markets pay the value of service industry work AND technical/trade skills. One is not better than the other.

So again, let's get out of theory and actually address the real world.

What is a "living wage" in Anaheim, CA in 2021 for working as an attraction host at "It's A Small World" for the following employees:

- Single 20 year old, living with parents, going to college
- Single mom with a kid as a second job
- Married man, head of household, with three kids
- Retired teacher on a pension who just enjoys talking to people on weekends

What is your proposed "living wage" per hour for each of those people? Or are they all the same? If they are not the same, how could an employer possibly pay based on each individual's personal situation and life choices?

 

[TP2000]

Most minimum wage workers are not young people working their first jobs. Most minimum wage workers have careers in sectors of the economy that do not pay adequately and do not provide them with skills and upward mobility. They are often breadwinners for their family, supporting dependents including children and the elderly.

Okay.

That doesn't change the fact that any reasonably polite 17 year old who doesn't even have a high school diploma yet can walk in off Ball Road and get a job at Disneyland doing almost all the things front-line CM's do; checking lapbars, ringing up t-shirts, flipping burgers, cleaning bathrooms and sweeping up napkins, bellowing "STAY TO YOUR RIGHT!" at crowds of people, etc..

The front-line jobs Disneyland offers most of its applicants require no formal skill or training, and often go to kids who haven't even graduated from high school yet.

We really need to move away from this idea that low wage workers are "young people in their 20s who should just get a room mate". It's a myth that ignores the structural problems in labor economics that are doing harm to those at the bottom and sabotaging the overall health of the economy.

That's not going to change the nature of the work that thousands of Disneyland CM's do every day. Work that requires no formal skills or training, or even a high school diploma.

I think Disneyland CM's should be paid a couple of bucks over minimum wage, a minimum wage in California that is already $15.00 an hour by the way. The extra few bucks over minimum wage is needed to accomodate the nature of the high-intensity work.

Since they got rid of the grooming standards for the most part, there's no longer a need to factor that in to the Disneyland pay scale. If they don't make a 20 year old man take off his spangly-dangly earrings and red nail polish before he goes to his butler shift at Haunted Mansion, there's no need to pay him the extra buck or two those higher standards would demand in the labor marketplace.

That's a loss to the CM's, but many CM's seem to value their nail polish more than a higher wage today. So I hope they enjoy the nail polish.

 

[TP2000]

So again, let's get out of theory and actually address the real world.

I doubt you'll get an answer. We never seem to get answers to that question, not even ballpark figures. Not just from @October82 but anyone who makes a "Living Wage" argument in the media or politics.

What is a "living wage" in Anaheim, CA in 2021 for working as an attraction host at "It's A Small World" for the following employees:

I would imagine, just by going on gut instinct and the rising inflation today, it's about the following (my wage estimates in bold):

- Single 20 year old, living with parents, going to college = $18.00 an hour
- Single mom with a kid as a second job = $25.00 an hour
- Married man, head of household, with three kids = $35.00 an hour
- Retired teacher on a pension who just enjoys talking to people on weekends = $15.00 an hour

What is your proposed "living wage" per hour for each of those people? Or are they all the same? If they are not the same, how could an employer possibly pay based on each individual's personal situation and life choices?

To your excellent point there, they are not all the same. They vary wildly, and can become very expensive for the employer to maintain.

It would also be flagrantly illegal to pay the married man with 3 kids more than the unmarried woman, when both of those people wandered in to the Disneyland casting office and asked for a job selling churros.

I imagine the proponents of "Living Wage!" would claim that the 20 year old college kid and unmarried woman should get paid the same rate as the married father of 3; about $35.00 an hour to sell churros or flip burgers or push the button to send the boat at It's A Small World.

 

[TP2000]

I'm still chuckling over how this whole thing fell apart for the UNITE HERE union. They wrote the ballot measure themselves, they campaigned for it, and they got it passed. But they wrote it so poorly that it didn't apply to Disneyland.

The ballot measure was that any business that receives a "City Subsidy" has to pay its employees a minimum of $18 an hour by 2022. And in their own text of the ballot the union wrote, they defined the subsidy as this...

A "City Subsidy" is any agreement with the city pursuant to which a person other than the city has a right to receive a rebate of transient occupancy tax, sales tax, entertainment tax, property tax or other taxes, presently or in the future, matured or unmatured.

And that was very easy to prove that the Disneyland Resort does not receive any rebate of those taxes from the city of Anaheim. We all knew that a few years ago, but the union tried to get it into court anyway. And no big surprise, the union lost in court.

Who does receive a rebate like that in Anaheim and thus is subject to this approved ballot measure, you may ask? The owners and operators of the new JWMarriott and Westin hotels. But that's not Disneyland, and those two hotels are unconnected to the Walt Disney Company.

The whole thing is hysterical.

https://www.anaheim.net/DocumentCenter/View/21954/2018-Initiative-Measure-Text?bidId=

 

[TP2000]

So again, let's get out of theory and actually address the real world.

What is a "living wage" in Anaheim, CA in 2021 for working as an attraction host...

Because we never seem to get even a ballpark figure of what a "Living Wage" is, I'm going to take a stab at it myself based on the thoughts and info here from October82...

Not to nerd out too much about this, but economists actually have standardized ways of defining the living wage, and it certainly is not the case that living wages hurt as many people as they help. The living wage is usually defined as twice the local cost of basic goods and services with a tax rate adjustment. This is very easy to calculate from data that the federal government collects routinely, so it's not especially difficult to estimate in theory or practice. There are public tools that can do it for you, or it's not hard to write your own and make changes as you see fit.

Now, we weren't privy to links to any of those tools October82 mentioned, but I Googled myself and the first one on the page was from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Go Beavers!). It's handy in that it lets you put in specific counties in a state. This is the current "Living Wage" for Orange County, California...

1 Adult, Zero Children (College Kid) = $22.44 per hour
1 Adult, One Child (Single Mom with 1 Child) = $45.36 per hour
1 Adult, Spouse, 3 Children (Married father of three) = $52.08 per hour

Living Wage Calculator - Living Wage Calculation for Orange County, California

livingwage.mit.edu

Uh... okay. So I was pretty close for the college kid, but way off for the adults who have a child or three. There's absolutely no way a business survives more than a few months paying those kinds of payscales for entry-level, unskilled work like churro dusting and ride operating.

And if you are paying ride operators and churro salesmen $45 or more per hour, what the heck are you going to pay their Dockers-clad assistant manager with a 4 year college degree in Communications? $75 per hour or $155,000 per year in salary? What does the TDA cubicle worker collating TPS reports get? $80 per hour or $165,000 per year in salary?

And yet, there it is. The "Living Wage" of $45 to $52 per hour that applicants wandering in off Ball Road looking for a job at Disneyland should theoretically be receiving.

I'll just let that sit there and marinate in people's minds a bit.

 

[Darkbeer1]

>>A Disneyland spokesperson told FOX Business that the company has "always been committed to fair and equitable pay for our cast members but have always agreed with the Anaheim City Attorney’s conclusion that Measure L does not apply to the Disneyland Resort."

"We are pleased the court has confirmed that position, the spokesperson added.

"While we never want to see a dispute like this play out in court, we appreciate the judge’s determination. It validates what we already knew and have said ― the city of Anaheim does not provide any rebate or subsidy to Disney," Anaheim spokesperson Mike Lyster added. "The Mickey & Friends parking structure and related financing were part of a $1.9 billion expansion of The Anaheim Resort from 1997 to 2001. The expansion was a public-private partnership reflecting mutual interest in Anaheim’s visitor economy. It has been a great return on investment for our city, residents and neighborhoods."

Lyster noted that, since the 1990s expansion, Anaheim's hotel revenue has more than tripled to a pre-pandemic high of $163 million in 2019, which was allocated to public safety, community centers, libraries, parks and meeting city obligations. He emphasized that the extended closures of the parks and the city convention center resulted in an 85% decrease in hotel revenue over two years to about $25 million.<<

California judge dismisses Disneyland minimum wage lawsuit

 

[SuddenStorm]

I feel like this same exact thing played out 2-3 years ago?

 

[Darkbeer1]

To TP2000,

Here is a recent story, in which I agree with Ada Briceno, who disagrees with Dr. Moreno.

Former OC Union Exec Fired For Sexual Harassment Hired By CSU Long Beach's Chicano Studies Department - Anaheim Independent

Julio Perez, who was fired in 2018 as chief executive of the Orange County Labor Federation amidst sexual misconduct allegations from multiple women, has been hired by the Chicano Studies Department of Cal State Long Beach as a part-time lecturer – generating a backlash from a large number of OC...

www.anaheimindependent.com

OC political officials call for firing of CSULB instructor previously fired over sexual misconduct allegations

Nineteen people signed onto the letter calling for Julio Perez, the former executive director of the Orange County Labor Federation to be terminated. The include seven current Orange County council members and mayors and the char of the Democratic Party of Orange County.

lbpost.com

Then this story about Ms. Ada...

>>Hiding true identities?
There have already been numerous examples of citizens failing to mention their partisan affiliations while making recommendations to the redistricting commission couched in nonpartisan language.

On Sept. 18, Ada Briceño, who called herself a “labor organizer” from Stanton, urged the commission to put the “very different communities” of north and south coastal Orange County into different districts.

“North Orange County, where I live, is the home to immigrants from around the world,” she said. “South Orange County reflects more of the wealthy, large beachfront homes that most people see on TV.”

Only especially politically plugged-in listeners — or those with the spare time to play detective — would know that Briceño is chairperson of the Orange County Democratic Party.

© Provided by CalMatters Ada Briceño, chairperson of the Democratic Party of Orange County. Photo courtesy of the party


Asked why she didn’t disclose that, Briceño said her party role isn’t relevant. What is relevant, she said, is her 25 years as a leader with UNITE HERE 11 and as an organizer in Anaheim’s redistricting in 2015 and 2016, as the city transitioned from at-large to district elections.

“I feel like those are hats that I hold that are really ingrained and very cemented,” she said. “I just felt that it was critical that if I have a little bit of time to speak, I feel that it is crucial to highlight those issues.” <<

Between the lines: Hidden partisans try to influence California’s independent redistricting

 

[TP2000]

>>A Disneyland spokesperson told FOX Business that the company has "always been committed to fair and equitable pay for our cast members but have always agreed with the Anaheim City Attorney’s conclusion that Measure L does not apply to the Disneyland Resort."

"We are pleased the court has confirmed that position, the spokesperson added.

California judge dismisses Disneyland minimum wage lawsuit

What's interesting is the last paragraph in that Fox Business article...

As of the end of the third quarter, all of Disney's theme parks across the globe have reopened at reduced capacities. Domestic theme parks brought in $2.65 billion in revenue and a $2 million operating profit while international theme parks brought in $526 million in revenue and a $210 million operating loss.

So basically, Disney's entire theme park group lost $208 Million in the Third Quarter. Ouch.

The Fourth Quarter and full fiscal year info get reported next Wednesday. Definitely something to watch!

 

[TP2000]

To TP2000,

Here is a recent story, in which I agree with Ada Briceno, who disagrees with Dr. Moreno.

Former OC Union Exec Fired For Sexual Harassment Hired By CSU Long Beach's Chicano Studies Department - Anaheim Independent

Julio Perez, who was fired in 2018 as chief executive of the Orange County Labor Federation amidst sexual misconduct allegations from multiple women, has been hired by the Chicano Studies Department of Cal State Long Beach as a part-time lecturer – generating a backlash from a large number of OC...

www.anaheimindependent.com

OC political officials call for firing of CSULB instructor previously fired over sexual misconduct allegations

Nineteen people signed onto the letter calling for Julio Perez, the former executive director of the Orange County Labor Federation to be terminated. The include seven current Orange County council members and mayors and the char of the Democratic Party of Orange County.

lbpost.com

Then this story about Ms. Ada...

>>Hiding true identities?
There have already been numerous examples of citizens failing to mention their partisan affiliations while making recommendations to the redistricting commission couched in nonpartisan language.

On Sept. 18, Ada Briceño, who called herself a “labor organizer” from Stanton, urged the commission to put the “very different communities” of north and south coastal Orange County into different districts.

“North Orange County, where I live, is the home to immigrants from around the world,” she said. “South Orange County reflects more of the wealthy, large beachfront homes that most people see on TV.”

Only especially politically plugged-in listeners — or those with the spare time to play detective — would know that Briceño is chairperson of the Orange County Democratic Party.

© Provided by CalMatters Ada Briceño, chairperson of the Democratic Party of Orange County. Photo courtesy of the party


Asked why she didn’t disclose that, Briceño said her party role isn’t relevant. What is relevant, she said, is her 25 years as a leader with UNITE HERE 11 and as an organizer in Anaheim’s redistricting in 2015 and 2016, as the city transitioned from at-large to district elections.

“I feel like those are hats that I hold that are really ingrained and very cemented,” she said. “I just felt that it was critical that if I have a little bit of time to speak, I feel that it is crucial to highlight those issues.” <<

Between the lines: Hidden partisans try to influence California’s independent redistricting

I haven't followed Anaheim politics closely lately, but it seems Dr. Moreno may be in some hot water there. Couldn't happen to a nicer Socialist!

As for Ada Briceno... she hasn't changed one bit, has she?

 

[October82]

So again, let's get out of theory and actually address the real world.

What is a "living wage" in Anaheim, CA in 2021 for working as an attraction host at "It's A Small World" for the following employees:
- Single mom with a kid as a second job
- Married man, head of household, with three kids
- Retired teacher on a pension who just enjoys talking to people on weekends

What is your proposed "living wage" per hour for each of those people? Or are they all the same? If they are not the same, how could an employer possibly pay based on each individual's personal situation and life choices?

Sure, like I said, this isn't hard to estimate. The consensus estimates from economists based on US census data for people living in Los Angeles and Orange Counties are:

- Single 20 year old, living with parents, going to college

$12/hour

- Single mom with a kid as a second job

The second job is immaterial - wages here doesn't mean what you're paid per job, but what your total earnings from labor are. $41.55/hour

- Married man, head of household, with three kids

$47.75/hour

- Retired teacher on a pension who just enjoys talking to people on weekends

Retired folks don't earn wages. Hopefully he saved for retirement.

There are a variety of reasons why you wouldn't want to scale the minimum wage with demographic characteristics, but the main one is that it would undo one of the main reasons you want a living wage policy in the first place - to correct inefficiencies in labor markets. The idea that it is impractical to calculate the living wage just isn't a good argument, though there might be other reasons to be concerned. Inflation, for example, is a reasonable thing to be worried about. As I mentioned in an earlier post, though, the economic evidence suggests that living wage increases are not inflationary.

The misunderstand here is treating the living wage debate as one about fairness or morality. It seems unfair to us that a single mother should make the same amount as a teenager living at home, but that isn't what the living wage is about. A living wage is really about supply and demand in labor markets.

 

[TP2000]

There are a variety of reasons why you wouldn't want to scale the minimum wage with demographic characteristics, but the main one is that it would undo one of the main reasons you want a living wage policy in the first place - to correct inefficiencies in labor markets.

Yeah, that and it would be wildly illegal at the Federal and State level to pay married men more than unmarried women for the same work; in this case loading boats and pushing the go button at It's A Small World.

Wildly illegal, and also downright insulting.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

What's interesting is the last paragraph in that Fox Business article...

As of the end of the third quarter, all of Disney's theme parks across the globe have reopened at reduced capacities. Domestic theme parks brought in $2.65 billion in revenue and a $2 million operating profit while international theme parks brought in $526 million in revenue and a $210 million operating loss.

So basically, Disney's entire theme park group lost $208 Million in the Third Quarter. Ouch.

The Fourth Quarter and full fiscal year info get reported next Wednesday. Definitely something to watch!

Obviously this isn’t normal for Disney but it is sadly very normal for many businesses, make money one month, lose money the next, just try to stay alive long enough to establish a clientele. I worked management a good portion of my young life and margins were often shockingly low. 20% of new businesses fail their first year, 50% by year five, for every Amazon or Disney that make billions in profit there’s tens of thousands of businesses that simply can’t survive what many consider a “living wage”. Even massive companies like McDonald’s are mostly franchises, the parent company could survive a massive pay increase but a lot of the locations wouldn’t.

Minimum wage should have been tied to inflation decades ago, there was a time it provided the bare essentials, but it didn’t keep up with inflation, that was our big mistake, but I think it would be an equally big mistake to go to the other extreme and make it so high it would actually harm as many people (through job losses) as it would help. $15 may be fine for high cost of living areas. $12 is probably better for less expensive areas, but when we start getting into the $20 range for starter jobs like dishwashers and busboys I just don’t see many small or mid sized businesses surviving that.

 

[TP2000]

Obviously this isn’t normal for Disney but it is sadly very normal for many businesses, make money one month, lose money the next, just try to stay alive long enough to establish a clientele. I worked management a good portion of my young life and margins were often shockingly low. 20% of new businesses fail their first year, 50% by year five, for every Amazon or Disney that make billions in profit there’s tens of thousands of businesses that simply can’t survive what many consider a “living wage”. Even massive companies like McDonald’s are mostly franchises, the parent company could survive a massive pay increase but a lot of the locations wouldn’t.

Agreed. Sadly, so many of our politicians and "experts" these days have never spent a day in a real job. They don't have the skills or experience to manage a donut shop on the afternoon shift, let alone budget and plan a small business for a few months.

Minimum wage should have been tied to inflation decades ago, there was a time it provided the bare essentials, but it didn’t keep up with inflation, that was our big mistake, but I think it would be an equally big mistake to go to the other extreme and make it so high it would actually harm as many people (through job losses) as it would help. $15 may be fine for high cost of living areas. $12 is probably better for less expensive areas, but when we start getting into the $20 range for starter jobs like dishwashers and busboys I just don’t see many small or mid sized businesses surviving that.

And yet we've seen here what the term "Living Wage!" means for Disneyland jobs.

Apparently it's $45 to $52 per hour to send boats at Small World, or wrangle churros in Frontierland, or clean bathrooms in Pixar Pier. Imagine how few people would actually be left working at Disneyland if they were paying 19 year old kids $45 an hour to deliver one-liners at Jungle Cruise.

And if they're paying Jungle Cruise Skippers $45 an hour, that kid better be a combination of Jerry Seinfeld and Rodney Dangerfield in a pith helmet!

 

[October82]

Obviously this isn’t normal for Disney but it is sadly very normal for many businesses, make money one month, lose money the next, just try to stay alive long enough to establish a clientele. I worked management a good portion of my young life and margins were often shockingly low. 20% of new businesses fail their first year, 50% by year five, for every Amazon or Disney that make billions in profit there’s tens of thousands of businesses that simply can’t survive what many consider a “living wage”. Even massive companies like McDonald’s are mostly franchises, the parent company could survive a massive pay increase but a lot of the locations wouldn’t.

One of the unfortunate things about the free markets is that companies that can't compete don't survive. If you want to have free markets, you can't have companies that aren't paying their workers what efficient markets would pay them. Large corporations will have to change their business models if they want to have franchises, and independent stores with poor business models will be replaced with ones that are more competitive. There's a reason economics is called the dismal science.

Minimum wage should have been tied to inflation decades ago, there was a time it provided the bare essentials, but it didn’t keep up with inflation, that was our big mistake, but I think it would be an equally big mistake to go to the other extreme and make it so high it would actually harm as many people (through job losses) as it would help. $15 may be fine for high cost of living areas. $12 is probably better for less expensive areas, but when we start getting into the $20 range for starter jobs like dishwashers and busboys I just don’t see many small or mid sized businesses surviving that.

I agree with this, the issue isn't about whether we should have a higher minimum wage - there's no doubt that we should - it's that we've waited so long to do it that rapidly changing the wage could be a negative shock to the economy. Good policy can take care of this but politics gets in the way.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Retired folks don't earn wages. Hopefully he saved for retirement.

Many "retired" folks get bored and want to remain active. I know a group of Knott's Associates that work for the joy of getting out of the house and interacting with folks (fellow employees and guests). In fact, they are happy with Minimum wage, because they can work more hours, as after a certain amount of income, their Social Security is taxable.

>>Income Taxes And Your Social Security Benefit
Some of you have to pay federal income taxes on your Social Security benefits. This usually happens only if you have other substantial income in addition to your benefits (such as wages, self-employment, interest, dividends and other taxable income that must be reported on your tax return).

You will pay tax on only 85 percent of your Social Security benefits, based on Internal Revenue Service (IRS) rules. If you:

• file a federal tax return as an "individual" and your combined income*is
  • between $25,000 and $34,000, you may have to pay income tax on up to 50 percent of your benefits.
  • more than $34,000, up to 85 percent of your benefits may be taxable.
• file a joint return, and you and your spouse have a combined income*that is
  • between $32,000 and $44,000, you may have to pay income tax on up to 50 percent of your benefits.
  • more than $44,000, up to 85 percent of your benefits may be taxable.<<

Request to withhold taxes

Submit a request to pay taxes on your Social Security benefit throughout the year instead of paying a big bill at tax time.

www.ssa.gov

 

[Sailor310]

Yeah, that and it would be wildly illegal at the Federal and State level to pay married men more than unmarried women for the same work; in this case loading boats and pushing the go button at It's A Small World.

Wildly illegal, and also downright insulting.

Sorry, but at the Federal level, married military members get more housing allowance (not technically pay, but it was 30% of my 'pay' when I was in) than non-married members for the same work.

 

[TP2000]

Sorry, but at the Federal level, married military members get more housing allowance (not technically pay, but it was 30% of my 'pay' when I was in) than non-married members for the same work.

Yes, but a housing allowance for military families is not pay.

Paying people differently for the same work based on their sex or marital status is illegal in the workplace. It's been illegal based on sex at the federal level since 1963. The clause that covers marriage, or head of household employees, came along a bit later in the 60's.