Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

[Darkbeer1]

Judge Rules Disneyland Does Not Have To Increase Minimum Wage, Rejects Employees’ Lawsuit

Judge Rules Disneyland Does Not Have To Increase Minimum Wage, Rejects Employees' Lawsuit

deadline.com

Disneyland Employees’ Lawsuit Demanding Park Increase Minimum Wage Dismissed by Judge

A judge ruled that Disneyland isn't required to adhere to a local living wage ordinance, dismissing a lawsuit filed by over 25,000 workers.

variety.com

 

[Darkbeer1]

From 1994...

OCTA Approves Funds for Disney Garage : Transportation: The agency, which will collect parking revenue from the lot, pledges $32 million.

The giant parking structure designed to accommodate the Walt Disney Co.'

www.latimes.com

 

[Darkbeer1]

25,000 workers sued Disneyland. Here’s the court’s decision.

The suit hinged on funding for a parking garage.

www.sfgate.com

 

[TP2000]

So many people here who talk about a "Living Wage" seem unable, or unwilling, to state what they think a "Living Wage" actually is. Especially when it comes to the entry-level jobs that make up much of Disneyland's front line, hourly workforce.

I think the CM's of the Disneyland Resort often do great work. And they deserve slightly above minimum wage for that work and the logistical and personal hassles of working at Disneyland.

Here's my proposed pay scale for entry-level jobs at the Disneyland Resort, as of January, 2022:

California Minimum Wage: $15.00 an hour

Waiter/Waitress/Bartender: $15.50 an hour (Plus Tips)
Hotels Bellman/Valet: $16.00 an hour (Plus Tips)
Ride Operator: $17.50 an hour
Churro/Balloon Salesman: $18.00 an hour
Shop Clerk/Cashier: $18.00 an hour
Restaurant Busboy: $18.00 an hour
Hotels Housekeeper: $18.50 an hour (Plus Tips)
Restaurant Kitchen Worker/Cashier: $19.00 an hour
Park or Hotel Custodial: $19.00 an hour
Guest Services: $19.00 an hour (and Tour Guides also get tips)
Hotels Front Desk Clerk/Lifeguards/Nontipped Positions: $19.50 an hour
Security: $20.00 an hour

Most other hourly CM's are semi-skilled or skilled laborers, at higher pay scales that start around $20.00 an hour and up, like skilled tradesmen, commercially licensed truck drivers, chefs, nurses, entertainment trades, mechanics, decorators, secretaries, etc.

Raises would come annually, in the 25 to 50 cents per hour range based on the pay scale and department.

See, that's not so hard to do, is it? Would anyone like @October82 or any other proponent of a "Living Wage" like to try their hand at it? What's a Living Wage in Orange County circa 2022 for Disneyland's thousands of entry-level jobs?

 

[TP2000]

25,000 workers sued Disneyland. Here’s the court’s decision.

The suit hinged on funding for a parking garage.

www.sfgate.com

“While we never want to see a dispute like this play out in court, we appreciate the judge’s determination,” Mike Lyster, spokesman for the city of Anaheim, told SFGATE. “It validates what we already knew and have said ― the city of Anaheim does not provide any rebate or subsidy to Disney.”

No kidding, Mr. Lyster.

It also validates what many of us here in this forum already knew and have said.

 

[shambolicdefending]

Not to nerd out too much about this, but economists actually have standardized ways of defining the living wage, and it certainly is not the case that living wages hurt as many people as they help. The living wage is usually defined as twice the local cost of basic goods and services with a tax rate adjustment. This is very easy to calculate from data that the federal government collects routinely, so it's not especially difficult to estimate in theory or practice. There are public tools that can do it for you, or it's not hard to write your own and make changes as you see fit.

I can only assume that your comment about it hurting people is based on the idea that a cost of living increase is inflationary. In fact, the economic evidence does not show this to be the case. Living wages either have no or limited impact on inflation. This is because inflation results from changes to the aggregate supply and demand curves, not movement along those curves. To understand the exact impact that a living wage will have on inflation, you need to account for details like the marginal propensity to consume, as well as the impact of other government and private sector policies.

Leaving aside those details, it just isn't the case that the US is doing things particularly well. The idea that raising the minimum wage to account for the cost of living will do widespread macroeconomic harm just isn't plausible given how poorly the US does as compared to other wealthy economies. If these sorts of policies were going to hurt more people than they help, countries where these policies are the norm would not be outperforming the US. We can and should do better.

I appreciate that you're talking about the issue from a straight economic perspective. The problem is that it's really a political issue that may or may not be rooted to real data.

I've also studied the issue enough to know that the positive impacts aren't close to as clear, nor the several negative ones as close to minimal you're implying.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

So many people here who talk about a "Living Wage" seem unable, or unwilling, to state what they think a "Living Wage" actually is. Especially when it comes to the entry-level jobs that make up much of Disneyland's front line, hourly workforce.

I think the CM's of the Disneyland Resort often do great work. And they deserve slightly above minimum wage for that work and the logistical and personal hassles of working at Disneyland.

Here's my proposed pay scale for entry-level jobs at the Disneyland Resort, as of January, 2022:

California Minimum Wage: $15.00 an hour

Waiter/Waitress/Bartender: $15.50 an hour (Plus Tips)
Hotels Bellman/Valet: $16.00 an hour (Plus Tips)
Ride Operator: $17.50 an hour
Churro/Balloon Salesman: $18.00 an hour
Shop Clerk/Cashier: $18.00 an hour
Restaurant Busboy: $18.00 an hour
Hotels Housekeeper: $18.50 an hour (Plus Tips)
Restaurant Kitchen Worker/Cashier: $19.00 an hour
Park or Hotel Custodial: $19.00 an hour
Guest Services: $19.00 an hour (and Tour Guides also get tips)
Hotels Front Desk Clerk/Lifeguards/Nontipped Positions: $19.50 an hour
Security: $20.00 an hour

Most other hourly CM's are semi-skilled or skilled laborers, at higher pay scales that start around $20.00 an hour and up, like skilled tradesmen, commercially licensed truck drivers, chefs, nurses, entertainment trades, mechanics, decorators, secretaries, etc.

Raises would come annually, in the 25 to 50 cents per hour range based on the pay scale and department.

See, that's not so hard to do, is it? Would anyone like @October82 or any other proponent of a "Living Wage" like to try their hand at it? What's a Living Wage in Orange County circa 2022 for Disneyland's thousands of entry-level jobs?

The problem with this list is if these are the base rates for “fun” jobs at Disneyland that means every other job in the area now has to pay $20 + to compete.

Who’s going to go work at Walmart or a restaurant, or a gas station for less than they can make ringing people up at DL?

Even in your examples my first thought was who’s going to sign up to be a housekeeper for $19 an hour when they could make $18 standing behind a register.

Pay should be relative to skill levels and also job appeal.

When I was in college I worked a couple summers at an amusement park as a rides operator and absolutely loved it, we only made minimum wage ($4.25 an hour) but it was so fun I never cared, plus I got free admission so I just spent my entire summer either working or playing there. I wouldn’t have stood in a kitchen or cleaned bathrooms for that amount though, my enjoyment of the job made the pay less important.

I also don’t think living wage should mean every job pays enough people can afford to live alone. Yes, I think anyone working 40 hours should be able to survive on one job but I don’t think that means their own house/apt simply because they work. Having to split a house or apartment with roommates isn’t the end of the world, I did that for most of my 20s to make ends meet. Even in expensive LA $15 an hour should be enough to survive once rent is split a couple ways down from $2400 to $800. You wouldn’t be living large but you could scrape by on $1000 a month for food and utilities (split 3 ways) after paying taxes and rent. That’s the base, work your way up from there.

 

[Dear Prudence]

"but no one wants to work!" Not for those conditions and pay, buddy.

 

[Darkbeer1]

The problem with this list is if these are the base rates for “fun” jobs at Disneyland that means every other job in the area now has to pay $20 + to compete.

Who’s going to go work at Walmart or a restaurant, or a gas station for less than they can make ringing people up at DL?

Even in your examples my first thought was who’s going to sign up to be a housekeeper for $19 an hour when they could make $18 standing behind a register.

Pay should be relative to skill levels and also job appeal.

When I was in college I worked a couple summers at an amusement park as a rides operator and absolutely loved it, we only made minimum wage ($4.25 an hour) but it was so fun I never cared, plus I got free admission so I just spent my entire summer either working or playing there. I wouldn’t have stood in a kitchen or cleaned bathrooms for that amount though, my enjoyment of the job made the pay less important.

I also don’t think living wage should mean every job pays enough people can afford to live alone. Yes, I think anyone working 40 hours should be able to survive on one job but I don’t think that means their own house/apt simply because they work. Having to split a house or apartment with roommates isn’t the end of the world, I did that for most of my 20s to make ends meet. Even in expensive LA $15 an hour should be enough to survive once rent is split a couple ways down from $2400 to $800. You wouldn’t be living large but you could scrape by on $1000 a month for food and utilities (split 3 ways) after paying taxes and rent. That’s the base, work your way up from there.

Why?

If they are going to College, the Disney Aspire program, is worth Thousands of dollars in Educational Costs., Tuition, Fees and Books are covered....

Disney - Education Benefit | Guild

Opportunity that starts with education and skilling. Access a catalog of learning programs and tailored coaching services to unlock possibility with your Guild benefit through Disney Aspire.

disney.guildeducation.com

And the BIG perk that is the reason many CM's apply, and that is also worth Thousands of Dollars. Free admission for themselves, their Family Members, and even tickets for friends. I know many CM's that will "sign in" their babysitter, their Hairstylist, their manicurists, the person who changes the oil in their vehicle, etc. in a Barter system.

Employee and Cast Member Benefits | Disney Aspire Educational Program

Disney offers a competitive total rewards package that includes pay, health and savings benefits, time-off programs, educational opportunities & more.

jobs.disneycareers.com

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Why?

If they are going to College, the Disney Aspire program, is worth Thousands of dollars in Educational Costs., Tuition, Fees and Books are covered....

Disney - Education Benefit | Guild

Opportunity that starts with education and skilling. Access a catalog of learning programs and tailored coaching services to unlock possibility with your Guild benefit through Disney Aspire.

disney.guildeducation.com

And the BIG perk that is the reason many CM's apply, and that is also worth Thousands of Dollars. Free admission for themselves, their Family Members, and even tickets for friends. I know many CM's that will "sign in" their babysitter, their Hairstylist, their manicurists, the person who changes the oil in their vehicle, etc. in a Barter system.

Employee and Cast Member Benefits | Disney Aspire Educational Program

Disney offers a competitive total rewards package that includes pay, health and savings benefits, time-off programs, educational opportunities & more.

jobs.disneycareers.com

Two very fine examples of why Disney can pay less and still be a good job.

 

[Darkbeer1]

"but no one wants to work!" Not for those conditions and pay, buddy.

If that was true, Disney would have to raise wages. Disney is currently negotiating with the Unions. If the Union Members aren't happy, then they can authorize a Strike. If they strike, then Disney will find out if they can find enough replacement workers.

 

[TP2000]

The problem with this list is if these are the base rates for “fun” jobs at Disneyland that means every other job in the area now has to pay $20 + to compete.

Not neccesarily. I may be old-fashioned, but the pay scale I offered above is based on the concept that to get one of those "fun" jobs at Disneyland, you also have to have skills that are clearly a cut above WalMart or McDonald's, and perform at a noticeably higher level than those jobs require. That also includes the need to be better groomed than the average WalMart employee. (See: In-N-Out employees)

Which is why when Disneyland dropped many of its grooming standards, all they were really doing was expanding their own labor pool and thus lowering their own wage growth. The CM's of 2023 will be able to wear purple nail polish and show all their gorgeous tats, but they will be paid less for it.

Too many current CM's failed to see that though, and just thought "Woohoo! I can show my tats and wear purple nail polish at work now! Disney loves me!" Those people are not bright, or at least failed high school economics.

Who’s going to go work at Walmart or a restaurant, or a gas station for less than they can make ringing people up at DL?

The people who can't be bothered to get a haircut or smile at the customer. The people who don't have the skillset or personal responsibility required to work at Disneyland or In-N-Out.

Even in your examples my first thought was who’s going to sign up to be a housekeeper for $19 an hour when they could make $18 standing behind a register.

Housekeepers are tipped positions; they take home a pocket of 1's and 5's left by the hotel guests for them. Housekeepers are also positions that don't require sharp communication skills. A cashier needs to be able to speak fluent and clear English, a housekeeper does not.

Pay should be relative to skill levels and also job appeal.

Agreed. That's why ride operators are among the lowest paid. Most kids want to work at Disneyland to be a Haunted Mansion ride operator, not staffing the french fry bin at Tomorrowland Terrace. But only a small number of applicants get to go work at Haunted Mansion or Millennium Falcon.

When I was in college I worked a couple summers at an amusement park as a rides operator and absolutely loved it, we only made minimum wage ($4.25 an hour) but it was so fun I never cared, plus I got free admission so I just spent my entire summer either working or playing there. I wouldn’t have stood in a kitchen or cleaned bathrooms for that amount though, my enjoyment of the job made the pay less important.

Agreed. See note above about working at Haunted Mansion versus Tomorrowland Terrace.

I also don’t think living wage should mean every job pays enough people can afford to live alone.

Agreed also. But that's not what proponents of a "Living Wage" demand.

 

[TP2000]

Two very fine examples of why Disney can pay less and still be a good job.

One other quick point. My pay scale I created above also takes into account that working at Disneyland in the 21st century can be very demanding, and the pressure never stops.

The days of having an "off season" when CM's can decompress are long gone. It's always Busy, Super Busy, or Insanely Busy. It's not a job where you can coast during slow periods and breathe a bit. It's always go, go, go and the customers paid huge money to be there and have high expectations. It's stressful and it's just... always busy.

The CM's should be paid more than the Arco employee on Ball Road slumped in a chair staring at his phone and occasionally putting 20 bucks on pump #4.

 

[October82]

The problem with this list is if these are the base rates for “fun” jobs at Disneyland that means every other job in the area now has to pay $20 + to compete.

Who’s going to go work at Walmart or a restaurant, or a gas station for less than they can make ringing people up at DL?

Even in your examples my first thought was who’s going to sign up to be a housekeeper for $19 an hour when they could make $18 standing behind a register.

Pay should be relative to skill levels and also job appeal.

When I was in college I worked a couple summers at an amusement park as a rides operator and absolutely loved it, we only made minimum wage ($4.25 an hour) but it was so fun I never cared, plus I got free admission so I just spent my entire summer either working or playing there. I wouldn’t have stood in a kitchen or cleaned bathrooms for that amount though, my enjoyment of the job made the pay less important.

I also don’t think living wage should mean every job pays enough people can afford to live alone. Yes, I think anyone working 40 hours should be able to survive on one job but I don’t think that means their own house/apt simply because they work. Having to split a house or apartment with roommates isn’t the end of the world, I did that for most of my 20s to make ends meet. Even in expensive LA $15 an hour should be enough to survive once rent is split a couple ways down from $2400 to $800. You wouldn’t be living large but you could scrape by on $1000 a month for food and utilities (split 3 ways) after paying taxes and rent. That’s the base, work your way up from there.

Most minimum wage workers are not young people working their first jobs. Most minimum wage workers have careers in sectors of the economy that do not pay adequately and do not provide them with skills and upward mobility. They are often breadwinners for their family, supporting dependents including children and the elderly.

We really need to move away from this idea that low wage workers are "young people in their 20s who should just get a room mate". It's a myth that ignores the structural problems in labor economics that are doing harm to those at the bottom and sabotaging the overall health of the economy.

Two very fine examples of why Disney can pay less and still be a good job.

College programs for people in low wage careers are certainly not a bad thing, but it isn't a solution or benefit for most low wage workers. These are often of limited utility, and are often designed to be difficult for employees to actually take advantage of. It doesn't really make sense for private employers to provide educations to people who are simply going to leave given the high turnover of service industry work, and these employers largely offer these benefits because they provide positive PR and lower costs than far more impactful wage increases. I'm sure most Disney employees would rather get a larger paycheck with which to pay for college than a benefit that only exists on paper.

 

[Darkbeer1]

One other quick point. My pay scale I created above also takes into account that working at Disneyland in the 21st century can be very demanding, and the pressure never stops.

The days of having an "off season" when CM's can decompress are long gone. It's always Busy, Super Busy, or Insanely Busy. It's not a job where you can coast during slow periods and breathe a bit. It's always go, go, go and the customers paid huge money to be there aTwenty? nd have high expectations. It's stressful and it's just... always busy.

The CM's should be paid more than the Arco employee on Ball Road slumped in a chair staring at his phone and occasionally putting 20 bucks on pump #4.

TWENTY? Regular cash price was $4.65 a gallon last night. More like Fifty!

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

One other quick point. My pay scale I created above also takes into account that working at Disneyland in the 21st century can be very demanding, and the pressure never stops.

The days of having an "off season" when CM's can decompress are long gone. It's always Busy, Super Busy, or Insanely Busy. It's not a job where you can coast during slow periods and breathe a bit. It's always go, go, go and the customers paid huge money to be there and have high expectations. It's stressful and it's just... always busy.

The CM's should be paid more than the Arco employee on Ball Road slumped in a chair staring at his phone and occasionally putting 20 bucks on pump #4.

Depends on the job, I just got back from POFQ and would happily drive the Sasagoula River boat for $15 an hour as my semi retired job. I’d bartend at the pool for that rate too, those both look fun to me. Wouldn’t work in a restaurant for those wages though, spent enough time doing that when I was younger to last a lifetime.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

TWENTY? Regular cash price was $4.65 a gallon last night. More like Fifty!

Didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at this post… can’t remember the last time I filled up for under $50.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Most minimum wage workers are not young people working their first jobs. Most minimum wage workers have careers in sectors of the economy that do not pay adequately and do not provide them with skills and upward mobility. They are often breadwinners for their family, supporting dependents including children and the elderly.

We really need to move away from this idea that low wage workers are "young people in their 20s who should just get a room mate". It's a myth that ignores the structural problems in labor economics that are doing harm to those at the bottom and sabotaging the overall health of the economy.



College programs for people in low wage careers are certainly not a bad thing, but it isn't a solution or benefit for most low wage workers. These are often of limited utility, and are often designed to be difficulty for employees to actually take advantage of. It doesn't really make sense for private employers to provide educations to people who are simply going to leave given the high turnover of service industry work, and these employers largely offer these benefits because they provide positive PR and lower costs than far more impactful wage increases. I'm sure most Disney employees would rather get a larger paycheck with which to pay for college than a benefit that only exists on paper.

There are MANY colleges and Trade schools that you can attend free if your income qualifies. With times and languages to offer flexibility.

Plenty of places to get skills, heck, many enter the Military to learn working skills.

The options are out there, many folks just don't make the effort.

 

[October82]

There are MANY colleges and Trade schools that you can attend free if your income qualifies. With times and languages to offer flexibility.

Plenty of places to get skills, heck, many enter the Military to learn working skills.

The options are out there, many folks just don't make the effort.

Most people at the bottom of the income ladder are making incredible efforts everyday to support themselves and their families. We need to make sure that the labor markets pay the value of service industry work AND technical/trade skills. One is not better than the other.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at this post… can’t remember the last time I filled up for under $50.

At least Costco is under $4. Paid $3.93 in Fullerton last week. A couple of miles north of the DLR on Harbor.