Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

shambolicdefending

Well-Known Member
Regardless of this ruling, Disney should still pay all of their workers a living wage.
I'd like Disney to pay generously. Any self-proclaimed premium service provider should.

But as soon as the term "living wage" enters the discussion, things fall apart. It's a nearly impossible thing to define and implement without hurting just as many people as it supposedly helps.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Not that long ago, this is exactly how it worked. Someone who had a family to support was paid more than someone who only had themselves to support. It was considered the moral thing to do and no one questioned it. But somewhere along the way, we as a society decided that was unfair and discriminatory and mandated that everyone be paid the same. And what happened? Now everyone gets paid the same crap wages. Victory!

I've been around for a long time. I don't remember that at all. Perhaps you are confusing someone who has learned a marketable skill being able to earn a higher wage than someone who is unskilled?

But... you are saying that in the 1970's a 32 year old man with a wife and two kids could get hired as a Tomorrowland Terrace busboy at a wage that was purposely higher than Disneyland paid a 17 year old to do that job? Why would any business anywhere willingly hire 32 year old men to do the same job at a higher hourly wage than a 17 year old could do for a lower hourly wage?
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
But by 1991, years before the deal became formal, The City and TWDC partner to apply and receive $113.5 million in Federal, State and County grants to pay for the Structure and
The roads and bridges to connect it to the freeway, and limit the impact to locals driving in the area. So Anaheim got the funds. And got to use the funds to help the city's finances. The Anaheim Taxpayers actually benefited from the deal, and didn't pay a dime for the structure.

I remember us talking about this almost 20 years ago on Laughingplace. But my memory banks have gotten a bit foggy on this one.

So the parking lot deal was part of the Anaheim Resort District Plan cooked up in the early 1990's, and that funding came from Federal, State and County sources only? Interesting!

And yet, here were are three decades later, and politicians are still able to point to that parking garage as the one (and only) example of "Disney doesn't pay it's fair share!". :rolleyes:

I know hindsight is 20/20, but don't give those types any ammunition to cling to. All the Disney critics and political foes in Anaheim have is that parking garage, and it doesn't seem worth it.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
How much money do you think the union wasted on this...

I'm sure it was at least a few hundred thousand dollars, if not more.

The union campaign had lots of fliers and signage, plus all the media stuff. And staffing.

Plus, the union had to pay some lawyers to write this ballot initiative so poorly that it couldn't stand up in court and would get thrown out. That's at least a hundred grand in lawyer fees right there. 🤣
 
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Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
I'd like Disney to pay generously. Any self-proclaimed premium service provider should.

But as soon as the term "living wage" enters the discussion, things fall apart. It's a nearly impossible thing to define and implement without hurting just as many people as it supposedly helps.
Living wage is so volatile specially with how the current climate impacts economics.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I'd like Disney to pay generously. Any self-proclaimed premium service provider should.

I completely agree. I've long thought Disneyland should start their hourly employees a few bucks over minimum wage, or whatever In-N-Out is currently paying, whichever is higher.

In-N-Out Burger is the shining, obvious example. They pay a bit more, and their employees are clearly a cut above the competition. Too often, In-N-Out employees are far superior to CM's in food service at Disneyland. The comparison is glaring and obvious.

But as soon as the term "living wage" enters the discussion, things fall apart. It's a nearly impossible thing to define and implement without hurting just as many people as it supposedly helps.

No kidding. What's extremely entertaining is that the people who shout "Living Wage!" never can give a dollar figure. Even a ballpark figure. And what does it even mean?

Does "Living Wage!" mean that a 32 year old man with no marketable skills and a wife and two kids can walk in to Disneyland's hiring center on Ball Road and start bussing tables at Tomorrowland Terrace and get paid the $28 an hour it requires to rent a 2 bedroom apartment and feed a family of 4 in Orange County?

But if I'm a 17 year old high school kid from a comfy middle class household in Anaheim Hills and I walk in to Disneyland's hiring center, I only get paid $17 an hour to be that same Tomorrowland Terrace busboy?
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Disney = greed.
last year I get Ap passes
Universal here I come
FYI...

Universal Studios Hollywood has a starting wage of $15.00.
Disneyland Resort has a starting wage of $15.50. Disneyland pays more.

And what if we learn that Universal got some county or city tax breaks on its parking structure or the roadways that lead from the Hollywood Freeway to the park?

 
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Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
I’m glad the court ruled this way, changing the law to punish a company based on something they did 20 years ago is ridiculous. It never should have been retroactive to begin with.

Going forward I have no problem with it but I hate when rules are changed after the fact.

Reminds me of judging all the things people did decades ago based on todays very different standards.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Disney = greed.
last year I get Ap passes
Universal here I come

It should also be noted that Universal Studios Hollywood is only there because it's a film studio, run by a film company.

The film industry in California receives hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks per year. Any tax break or subsidy Universal Studios may have gotten on its parking structure or road infrastructure, a direct comparison to the Disneyland discussion here, is likely peanuts compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars that are doled out in tax breaks and subsidies to Hollywood film studios.

 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Not that long ago, this is exactly how it worked. Someone who had a family to support was paid more than someone who only had themselves to support. It was considered the moral thing to do and no one questioned it. But somewhere along the way, we as a society decided that was unfair and discriminatory and mandated that everyone be paid the same. And what happened? Now everyone gets paid the same crap wages. Victory!

I've never heard of this being the norm. I'm interested in learning more if you have any articles or examples?
 

josh2000

Well-Known Member
What is the "living wage" you think they should offer? $18 an hour to start? $24 to start?

Is it based on how many children you have or your current life situation?
Don't want to go too political with this post since I know the forum rules regarding politics. In my mind, a 'living wage' is nothing more than what the name implies. An amount that allows an individual that is working full-time to have all their basic essentials met based on the prices where they live. Please note that I said enough to support an individual and not a family. If you've got a family then you will have to find assistance, get a higher paying job, or have a second provider in the household.

There is no universal living wage. New York is very different from Alabama and California is very different from Kansas. I do not live in Anaheim so I do not know the specific economic nuances of the area. But online tools say that $19.22/hr is roughly what the living wage would be for an individual living in Anaheim with no kids or dependents of any kind.

Every person living in the richest country in the world should have enough to afford a place to live, food to eat, medicine, ect. That should be the bare minimum someone could get paid at a full-time job, in my view. That's just my worldview and I understand that others may not agree, but you asked me for my opinion so I am giving it.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
To me, the wage paid should match the needs of the employer and what the employee can offer. For example, this summer, Cedar Point's starting wage was $20 per hour, and returning employees got more, plus bonuses after working so many days. All the employee had to do in most cases is to have a good attitude and be willing to learn. Supply and demand.

Off topic, at AGW and off to DtD to have Thanksgiving Dinner Ice Cream.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
I'd like Disney to pay generously. Any self-proclaimed premium service provider should.

But as soon as the term "living wage" enters the discussion, things fall apart. It's a nearly impossible thing to define and implement without hurting just as many people as it supposedly helps.

Not to nerd out too much about this, but economists actually have standardized ways of defining the living wage, and it certainly is not the case that living wages hurt as many people as they help. The living wage is usually defined as twice the local cost of basic goods and services with a tax rate adjustment. This is very easy to calculate from data that the federal government collects routinely, so it's not especially difficult to estimate in theory or practice. There are public tools that can do it for you, or it's not hard to write your own and make changes as you see fit.

I can only assume that your comment about it hurting people is based on the idea that a cost of living increase is inflationary. In fact, the economic evidence does not show this to be the case. Living wages either have no or limited impact on inflation. This is because inflation results from changes to the aggregate supply and demand curves, not movement along those curves. To understand the exact impact that a living wage will have on inflation, you need to account for details like the marginal propensity to consume, as well as the impact of other government and private sector policies.

Leaving aside those details, it just isn't the case that the US is doing things particularly well. The idea that raising the minimum wage to account for the cost of living will do widespread macroeconomic harm just isn't plausible given how poorly the US does as compared to other wealthy economies. If these sorts of policies were going to hurt more people than they help, countries where these policies are the norm would not be outperforming the US. We can and should do better.

To me, the wage paid should match the needs of the employer and what the employee can offer. For example, this summer, Cedar Point's starting wage was $20 per hour, and returning employees got more, plus bonuses after working so many days. All the employee had to do in most cases is to have a good attitude and be willing to learn. Supply and demand.

Off topic, at AGW and off to DtD to have Thanksgiving Dinner Ice Cream.

This kind of reasoning can work if labor markets are efficient and well functioning. They're not. That means we can't apply basic high school level cartoon pictures of how hiring works to understand wages in the real world. The overall result is that wages are higher than they should be in some parts of the labor market, and especially in service industry jobs, much lower.

Not that long ago, this is exactly how it worked. Someone who had a family to support was paid more than someone who only had themselves to support. It was considered the moral thing to do and no one questioned it. But somewhere along the way, we as a society decided that was unfair and discriminatory and mandated that everyone be paid the same. And what happened? Now everyone gets paid the same crap wages. Victory!

This is a bit strange given that wage stagnation is more than 50 years old. It's not caused by social changes, but by structural changes in labor markets, like concentration of employers and globalization.

Okay, enough politics/economic theory. This ruling is a shame, but it does seem to be a correct reading of the law. If this mainly acts as a deterrent on Disney accepting future corporate subsidies, that seems like a weird and unintended outcome of the ballot measure.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I’m glad the court ruled this way, changing the law to punish a company based on something they did 20 years ago is ridiculous. It never should have been retroactive to begin with.

Going forward I have no problem with it but I hate when rules are changed after the fact.

Reminds me of judging all the things people did decades ago based on todays very different standards.
Ex post facto laws are illegal. I still don’t understand how that alone doesn’t automatically shut down the retroactive nature of this measure.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Not to nerd out too much about this, but economists actually have standardized ways of defining the living wage, and it certainly is not the case that living wages hurt as many people as they help. The living wage is usually defined as twice the local cost of basic goods and services with a tax rate adjustment. This is very easy to calculate from data that the federal government collects routinely, so it's not especially difficult to estimate in theory or practice. There are public tools that can do it for you, or it's not hard to write your own and make changes as you see fit.

I can only assume that your comment about it hurting people is based on the idea that a cost of living increase is inflationary. In fact, the economic evidence does not show this to be the case. Living wages either have no or limited impact on inflation. This is because inflation results from changes to the aggregate supply and demand curves, not movement along those curves. To understand the exact impact that a living wage will have on inflation, you need to account for details like the marginal propensity to consume, as well as the impact of other government and private sector policies.

Leaving aside those details, it just isn't the case that the US is doing things particularly well. The idea that raising the minimum wage to account for the cost of living will do widespread macroeconomic harm just isn't plausible given how poorly the US does as compared to other wealthy economies. If these sorts of policies were going to hurt more people than they help, countries where these policies are the norm would not be outperforming the US. We can and should do better.

Okay.

So... Pop Quiz! What should the starting wage be for a Tomorrowland Terrace busboy?

Give us a dollar figure, if you please. You can give us a range within two dollars, if that helps.

This ruling is a shame, but it does seem to be a correct reading of the law.

It's a laser-like accurate reading of the law. In this case, the law is the ballot measure that the union itself wrote and paid for and stumped for and got passed in a local election.

We could all see several years ago the union didn't have a leg to stand on, that their own ballot measure was written so poorly and so sloppily that it didn't pass muster. A judge finally declared the obvious.
 
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October82

Well-Known Member
Ex post facto laws are illegal. I still don’t understand how that alone doesn’t automatically shut down the retroactive nature of this measure.

Ex post facto prohibitions concern criminal law, not civil. People have argued that shouldn't be the case, but the courts have largely disagreed or punted on the issue entirely. It seems like the latter is the case here. Disney isn't receiving a subsidy anymore, so the law doesn't apply to them. If they receive subsidies in the future, the law would apply and there would be no ex post facto concern.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Off topic, but Thanksgiving is three weeks away. Why are you having ice cream in celebration of that?
To try it, and Lisa and I wanted to walk.

I got a Double, one Scoop of Caramelized Turkey & Cranberry Sauce and a scoop of Parker House Rolls with Salted Buttercream, Lisa had a scoop of Pumpkin & Gingersnap Pie.

They were all good. Yes Quirky, but there was a decent line to buy the stuff. Worth the wait.


Why enjoying my Ice Cream, got hit up by a CSF student working on a Bilingual study. Lots of open ended questions. Got the right guy, I struggle with Spanish, but my father spoke 12 languages, but that was a skill needed for his job. Nice kid.

And since I am doing the Turkey Trot on Thanksgiving morning...

 

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