Disney Deaths Prompt Federal and Local Investigations

jakeman

Well-Known Member
But OSHA getting involved tells you there are some folks who think that, at the very least, Disney needs some oversight into its safety issues.
Seriously?

OSHA is called for almost all workplace fatalities.

It's not like OSHA sat up and said, "Wait a minute, there is something fishy down in Orlando."

It's pretty much standard procedure. Why are you making it out to be more than it is?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Seriously?

OSHA is called for almost all workplace fatalities.

It's not like OSHA sat up and said, "Wait a minute, there is something fishy down in Orlando."

It's pretty much standard procedure. Why are you making it out to be more than it is?

Seriously.

OSHA is looking into many aspects of WDW's procedures that aren't in that WSJ story. I assumed (wrongly) they had been made public. My bad.

But this is being taken very seriously. That I can guarantee you.

And I can't imagine why any sane guest/CM/individual would have any issue with making sure safety first is always the rule at WDW ... although I'm pretty sure some folks here will!
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
Seriously.

OSHA is looking into many aspects of WDW's procedures that aren't in that WSJ story. I assumed (wrongly) they had been made public. My bad.

But this is being taken very seriously. That I can guarantee you.
You are implying to me, whether intentionally or not, that a serious OSHA investigation is not a routine thing in a case like this. I think it would be more out of the ordinary for it not to occur.

If you mean that the investigation is now extending past the incident and looking at the resort as a whole, I really can't say that I wouldn't do the same.

While the chances that the 3 deaths are in any way connected are almost nil, it is an avenue I would think any sensible investigator would explore.

And I can't imagine why any sane guest/CM/individual would have any issue with making sure safety first is always the rule at WDW ... although I'm pretty sure some folks here will!
Why do you do this? No one here has intimated that safety shouldn't be the first priority. You are throwing crap in the air in the hopes there is a fan above you.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
You are implying to me, whether intentionally or not, that a serious OSHA investigation is not a routine thing in a case like this. I think it would be more out of the ordinary for it not to occur.

If you mean that the investigation is now extending past the incident and looking at the resort as a whole, I really can't say that I wouldn't do the same.

While the chances that the 3 deaths are in any way connected are almost nil, it is an avenue I would think any sensible investigator would explore.

Oh, jake old buddy, I disagree. Disney has changed its culture drastically and safety has been affected. You may not want to admit that, but it doesn't change anything.

The three deaths may not be connected in terms of how they happened ... and they may have nothing in common at all. But I think they are part and parcel of a change of Disney's culture.

David Koenig has an interesting column about some of the changes and what people are saying behind the scenes on Mouseplanet.com.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
And I can't imagine why any sane guest/CM/individual would have any issue with making sure safety first is always the rule at WDW ... although I'm pretty sure some folks here will!

Why do you do this? No one here has intimated that safety shouldn't be the first priority. You are throwing crap in the air in the hopes there is a fan above you.

Nah ... I'm trying to stimulate discussion and debate on something that's a helluva lot more important than 99.9% of what's discussed here ... but it sure seems like it's a two man discussion and you're always willing to give Disney the benefit of the doubt. I'm not that naive.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
Oh, jake old buddy, I disagree. Disney has changed its culture drastically and safety has been affected. You may not want to admit that, but it doesn't change anything.

The three deaths may not be connected in terms of how they happened ... and they may have nothing in common at all. But I think they are part and parcel of a change of Disney's culture.

David Koenig has an interesting column about some of the changes and what people are saying behind the scenes on Mouseplanet.com.
You disagree that OSHA wouldn't normally investigate a death in a workplace?

I really think we are saying the same thing here.

There have been 3 deaths that are more than likely not connect in anyway with the exception of their physical location and timeframe in which they happened.

Any investigator worth his OSHA bagde would have to at least consider taking a cursory looking at the park operations as a whole. With a highly publicize area like WDW I really wouldn't expect anything less.

The only difference is you seem to be choosing to see this as yet another giant consipracy of some sort when it appears to be a very logical sequence of event.

Nah ... I'm trying to stimulate discussion and debate on something that's a helluva lot more important than 99.9% of what's discussed here ... but it sure seems like it's a two man discussion and you're always willing to give Disney the benefit of the doubt. I'm not that naive.
You're stimiluating discussion by accusing posters here of wanting to sacrafice CM safety for their good time, especially when that hasn't been mentioned at all? There is a difference between stimulating and provoking.

Since we are dealing in broad absolutes, it's interesting you say that I give Disney the benefit of the doubt because you never give Disney any credit for anything. Oh I know your next post with be filled with, "If you know what I know...", but when it comes down to it, you draw conclusions that severely incriminate Disney of boardline criminal wrongdoing. That's just a difference in our discusions, I won't take it that far without factual evidence. It's not the benefit of the doubt, it's more of an innocent until proven guilty.

Also just a heads up, it's a theme park...99.9% of what goes on there isn't important.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
I don’t know enough about Health and Safety Issues in the US to fully comment but I can say with certainty that if one company operating on one site in the UK had three deaths the Health and Safety Executive would be all over the operation looking at every single facet. And its not a blame culture ( i right believe that and you really are naive) but they will find something / someone. And having been on the receiving end of an enquiry its not pleasant ( even though I wasn’t with the company at the time of the accidents).

In these cases it may be they are just accidents (poo does happen) or they may be indicators of a failure to effectively manage safety. I don’t want Disney to end up like here where H&S is used as an excuse to cut things and slow down change, but then as a guest I don’t want my family exposed to risk that is elevated by poor management or employee practices.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
As is drilled into our brains from day one, our priorities are:

Safety
Courtesy
Show
Efficiency

In that order.
That's Disney lip service. In practice, they are done in a different order.
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
You're an idiot.
Such a simple response, so full of truth, and can be said of several of the posts in this thread. It's interesting that many of those that love to complain the most are also the ones that are seeing conspiracy theories. It makes one really question their motives.

OSHA investigations for workplace accidents are normal and routine and a certainty when an accident involves a death.

Good to see you around Speck. :wave:
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
I don’t know enough about Health and Safety Issues in the US to fully comment but I can say with certainty that if one company operating on one site in the UK had three deaths the Health and Safety Executive would be all over the operation looking at every single facet. And its not a blame culture ( i right believe that and you really are naive) but they will find something / someone. And having been on the receiving end of an enquiry its not pleasant ( even though I wasn’t with the company at the time of the accidents).

In these cases it may be they are just accidents (poo does happen) or they may be indicators of a failure to effectively manage safety. I don’t want Disney to end up like here where H&S is used as an excuse to cut things and slow down change, but then as a guest I don’t want my family exposed to risk that is elevated by poor management or employee practices.
Apologies if I am misunderstanding the bolded statement, but I really don't understand the continued accusation of naivity when I am agreeing with everything people are saying.

Is it just because I won't take that one extra step and blame management without facts?

With regard to your concerns, my experience is that there is a very healthy fear of regulatory authorities and they are responded to methodically. I can't really speak for OSHA, but if we were to alter our practices in a negative way after the FDA comes knocking that would be noted.

For example if we screwed up some data and the FDA wanted us to overhaul that system and we did, but at the same time cut back on a completely different department, that would just lead to more questions and potentially more investigations.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Apologies if I am misunderstanding the bolded statement, but I really don't understand the continued accusation of naivity when I am agreeing with everything people are saying.

Is it just because I won't take that one extra step and blame management without facts?

With regard to your concerns, my experience is that there is a very healthy fear of regulatory authorities and they are responded to methodically. I can't really speak for OSHA, but if we were to alter our practices in a negative way after the FDA comes knocking that would be noted.

For example if we screwed up some data and the FDA wanted us to overhaul that system and we did, but at the same time cut back on a completely different department, that would just lead to more questions and potentially more investigations.


No offence, but do you really think that any comment in a post is aimed at you? It was a rhetorical question, as in so much as in all the issues ive been involved in (yes there is a down side to being a manager with H&S responsibility and training) the investigators always saying crap about it not being a blame game.

If you read my post again you will see no accusation against Disney mismanagement, or its staff, but thats not to say an investigation wont find something wrong, that was why I posted, investigations initiated by these events may unearth some other issues, especially given the media attention. And the result may be that projects / events etc are unduly affected.
It is a little difficult to explain unless you have experienced the culture here in the UK where Health and Safety has become a growth industry and a convenient get out for both Unions and management to prevaricate. But then I am a negative conspiracy theorist out to condemn Disney management regardless of their involvement so Ive got to find doom and gloom somewhere.
 

cdunbar

Active Member
Well like Epcot Explorer said bad things happen in three's, and hopefully disney has just maxed out its bad luck credit card.
The thing that in my opinion brings questions into the indy accident is that the gymanists which are trained in eastern European countries are some of the best. Their training is something that literally is their life, how to avoid these types of accidents is something which I imagined is quite well drilled into their head! Maybe this gentleman was the exception to the rule, maybe he was not European trained? But none the less this has been a few very sad, sad months for several families. But I do have a question and maybe someone who works in the entertainment dept at wdw or dl can answer this. The workers who participate in the more dangerous side of operations, does disney offer them a life insurance policy that is paid out of pocket by the company something which is more advanced, this probably is not the correct term but the only one I could think of, than the one's lets say any of us have?
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
No offence, but do you really think that any comment in a post is aimed at you? It was a rhetorical question, as in so much as in all the issues ive been involved in (yes there is a down side to being a manager with H&S responsibility and training) the investigators always saying crap about it not being a blame game.
No offense taken. You posted right after me and said "you". That second person is always tricky.

If you read my post again you will see no accusation against Disney mismanagement, or its staff, but thats not to say an investigation wont find something wrong, that was why I posted, investigations initiated by these events may unearth some other issues, especially given the media attention. And the result may be that projects / events etc are unduly affected.
It is a little difficult to explain unless you have experienced the culture here in the UK where Health and Safety has become a growth industry and a convenient get out for both Unions and management to prevaricate. But then I am a negative conspiracy theorist out to condemn Disney management regardless of their involvement so Ive got to find doom and gloom somewhere.
I agree and I was speaking generally as well, not directly at you regarding the larger naive accusation. Sounds like we got our post crosses.

I won't pretend to fully understand the situation over there, but, at least in my experience that is not the case with most regulatory agency I have to deal with. Whiile they provide guidelines and regulation, we don't scapegoat the agencies.

Experiences with OSHA might be different. I haven't worked with them as much as other government bodies.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Perhaps this is fitting the new signage at PI?

workplacesafety.jpg
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
:ROFLOL:

Budget cuts can't be too bad if they can hire another person to do what rope can accomplish!

Its the unions.
At the risk of too much drift thought Id post this as way of justifying my words of doom.

From the Guardian Newspaper:


Alton Towers, one of the UK's most popular theme parks, is to ban children from wearing high heels and introduce airport-style scanners on its rollercoaster rides, in an unusual crackdown on ''child cheats'' who don't meet height requirements.

For health and safety reasons, children must be at least 1.2m or 1.4m (just under 4ft to 4ft 7in) to go on the park's most popular ''white knuckle'' rides. But imaginative youngsters are tricking their way on to rides by wearing high heels – typically chunky trainers – and even thickly-layered socks.

From this Saturday, children will have their shoes carefully checked. The resort is also looking at purchasing specialist shoe x-ray scanners similar to those used in airports to speed up the checks.

The height restriction is imposed because the seats, safety belts and harnesses in the rollercoaster cars are designed for adults and larger bodies.

Youngsters have traditionally tried to trick their way on to the rides by standing on tiptoe. But since the North Staffordshire theme park reopened in March, one vertically challenged youngster was found to have attached a pair of flip-flops to his trainers with masking tape in a bid to make the grade. A young girl appeared to have swapped shoes with her mother in order to evade the height restriction.

Morwenna Angove, sales and marketing director, said: "While this ban may appear extreme, we are confident it will reduce the number of desperate attempts to gain a centimetre or two."


Oh dear...................
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Its the unions.
At the risk of too much drift thought Id post this as way of justifying my words of doom.

From the Guardian Newspaper:

Alton Towers, one of the UK's most popular theme parks, is to ban children from wearing high heels and introduce airport-style scanners on its rollercoaster rides, in an unusual crackdown on ''child cheats'' who don't meet height requirements.

For health and safety reasons, children must be at least 1.2m or 1.4m (just under 4ft to 4ft 7in) to go on the park's most popular ''white knuckle'' rides. But imaginative youngsters are tricking their way on to rides by wearing high heels – typically chunky trainers – and even thickly-layered socks.

From this Saturday, children will have their shoes carefully checked. The resort is also looking at purchasing specialist shoe x-ray scanners similar to those used in airports to speed up the checks.

The height restriction is imposed because the seats, safety belts and harnesses in the rollercoaster cars are designed for adults and larger bodies.

Youngsters have traditionally tried to trick their way on to the rides by standing on tiptoe. But since the North Staffordshire theme park reopened in March, one vertically challenged youngster was found to have attached a pair of flip-flops to his trainers with masking tape in a bid to make the grade. A young girl appeared to have swapped shoes with her mother in order to evade the height restriction.

Morwenna Angove, sales and marketing director, said: "While this ban may appear extreme, we are confident it will reduce the number of desperate attempts to gain a centimetre or two."

Oh dear...................

Sak... I demand you take this post down immediately.

You know Disney reads these boards.

You're giving them ideas.

:lookaroun
 

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