Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

DDLand

Well-Known Member
Where did I say you were wrong? You have your opinion, I have mine. Some people think the yodeling cattle rustler from Home on the Range is a great Disney villain. I don't get it, personally, but hey, some people juggle geese.
Indeed. I'm sure there's someone out there who loves the black cauldron which even the filmmakers on the project admitted was terrible. I also know there are people out there who hate things like the Lion King.

There is a consensus generally about which way things fall. The consensus for Frozen is it had charming characters, an inspiring story, and fun music.
 

FigmentForver96

Well-Known Member
Soooo Frozen is bad....and anybody who truly likes it is just under the appeal to popularity mindset?

Actually I have a better idea. You hating the movie in YOUR opinion, Frozen being one of the worst films is YOUR opinion, the music sucks is YOUR opinion. At this point what are you trying to prove with all the energy trying to bash Frozen? In 2016 the ride will open and later down the line a second film is coming out. Frozen is not going ANYWHERE anytime soon and love or hate it you are going to have to accept that. You don't have to watch the films, or ride the rides, or meet the characters but those who do like the films will do so.

Also on a side note....a lot of people do like the movie. It has been overplayed, but some terrible horrible Disney film isn't going to outsell Barbie, some terrible horrible Disney film isn't going to make millions upon millions...that's what movies like John Carter do.

The movie was cute and down the road I believe it will be considered a classic Disney film, as it did really well being a great family movie with good morals. Of course that is my opinion, but I guess I can start ranting and popping out Internet articles about why I am right and anybody who thinks otherwise is under some dumb mindset.

Edit: Just wanted to chime back and say I am no way endorse how the Frozen situation has been handled via Epcot or Hollywood Studios. The only thing they got it right with is the Fireworks and the castle lighting.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
If you read in context what I said, you would understand that in fact I was agreeing that there are people who would align themselves with your viewpoint.

It is a fact that people in general like Frozen. It may not make it good in your eyes. That honestly doesn't matter when Disney is looking for the next big franchise to put into the park.

Though the plot holes you keep mentioning, I just don't see them. Maybe I'm too stupid, but I honestly could explain away most of the problems or complaints.

Though your logical fallacies thing is funny...
...inevitable hordes of idiot fans. I know that's harsh, but in total seriousness, the VAST MAJORITY of people I encounter who cite Frozen as their favorite literally know NOTHING about Disney or its history. They're NOT Disney fans, they're fans of this one movie. There is a DIFFERENCE!!!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnecdotalFallacy

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToTradition

I feel like I could find more if I wanted. Most everyone uses fallacies. It stinks. I use fallacies all the time. So do you.

I'm going to stop here. Let's make the moderators lives easier and avoid thread drift...
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Making it worse is that when I tried to have an intelligent discussion about the film, they wouldn't hear it and everywhere I went I was basically branded the resident troll because - GASP! - I didn't like their precious movie. Even now, two years after the film was released. not once have I ever seen an intelligent, well-reasoned defense of it. Not once. All I see are logical fallacies and ad hominim attacks whenever anyone says they didn't like it, not just me. And these are the people Disney is trying to please. Do you get why that would be aggravating?

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/frozen_2013/

You are not wrong. A slim minority did not like Frozen, you occupy that slice.

That does not make the majority who did like the movie wrong either. The logical fallacy you've fallen into is that you somehow think the world operates in black and white, that a movie is either good or bad. That's not how it works. You cannot somehow logic your way into convincing a majority that their opinion about something subjective (and not objective) is wrong.

What we can objectively establish is that, yes, a majority of the population thought Frozen was a good movie. Trumpeting your opinion does not change that.
 

HauntedMansionFLA

Well-Known Member
This has been quite the LOL tonight but is there any information about the meet and greet being built. Any insiders have specific details - a meet and Greet (of course) but dining and retail included?? It will be interesting once it opens. And there is another Frozen movie being developed to appeal to the people who have spent a lot of $$$$$$$$$$ for the mouse. Frozen can actually be in three of the four parks and get away with it. It's the 21st century princess just like Sleepy Beauty and Cinderella was decades ago. The gang is here to stay. Sorry people but it's not going away.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Why does Frozen deserve anything? It is a film, not themed entertainment.
Disney parks have historically been a blend of original concept rides and rides driven by intellectual property. Since The Wizarding World of Harry Potter, the shift has been towards intellectual property driven attractions. When Harry Potter first opened, we as a fan community looked at the franchises that could potentially compete with it. The list at the time was short: Star Wars and Cars. Frozen has been added to that list.

Frozen is an incredibly popular and incredibly profitable franchise. In today's world of entertainment, something that successful gets a sequel, and a theme park attraction. When either of those things are rushed it can only be perceived as a cash grab. We've been told back in September of last year by @Lee that the budget for the entire makeover (meet and greet and ride) is $75 million (link). This is the least they can do, and there is very little chance the attraction can be anything other than an operational nightmare. If it's a good ride (and I have no reason to think it won't be), the capacity will be insufficient. If it's a bad ride, then the capacity may not be an issue, but we'd be looking at a step backwards and a thematic break.

While some people have a level of Frozen fatigue, it's not going away. Disney seemingly didn't want to do what they did with Little Mermaid and wait 20 years, but with Little Mermaid, they did exactly what they should do with Frozen. They built a dedicated space to it with an attraction that can satisfy the demand. At the very least, Frozen deserved that.
 
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HauntedMansionFLA

Well-Known Member
Disney parks have historically been a blend of original concept rides and rides driven by intellectual property. Since The Wizarding World of Harry Potter the shift has been towards intellectual property drive attractions. When Harry Potter first opened, we as a fan community looked at the franchises that could potentially compete with it. The list at the time was short: Star Wars and Cars. Frozen has been added to that list.

Frozen is an incredibly popular, and incredibly profitable franchise. In today's world of entertainment, something that successful gets a sequel, and a theme park attraction. When either of those things are rushed it can only be perceived as a cash grab. We've been told back in September of last year by @Lee that the budget for the entire makeover (meet and greet and ride) is $75 million (link). This is the least they can do, and there is very little chance the attraction can be anything other than an operational nightmare. If it's a good ride (and I have no reason to think it won't be), the capacity will be insufficient. If it's a bad ride, then the capacity may not be an issue, but we'd be looking at a step backwards and a thematic break.

While some people have a level of Frozen fatigue, it's not going away. Disney seemingly didn't want to do what they did with Little Mermaid and wait 20 years, but with Little Mermaid, they did exactly what they should do with Frozen. They built a dedicated space to it with an attraction that can satisfy the demand. At the very least, Frozen deserved that.
Perfect response / statement
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
I was really looking forward to that one. Now I'm not so sure. I heard Alan Tudyk signed up to play "Duke Weaselton" and while I would hope that would be a spoof, something tells me that it's not and it'll be another case of that blankety-blank-blank movie sticking its nose in and ruining something that was once good, just like it did to Once Upon A Time. I'm reserving judgement until the film comes out and I actually see it, but my expectations have officially plummeted.
Once upon a time was crap long before frozen lol
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Disney parks have historically been a blend of original concept rides and rides driven by intellectual property. Since The Wizarding World of Harry Potter, the shift has been towards intellectual property driven attractions. When Harry Potter first opened, we as a fan community looked at the franchises that could potentially compete with it. The list at the time was short: Star Wars and Cars. Frozen has been added to that list.
It was not a blend. Any existing properties were chosen based on their story as related to themed entertainment, with a result that these films represented many box office under performers.

Disney's dismissal of themed entertainment happened well before the Wizarding World of Harry Potter opened.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
It was not a blend. Any existing properties were chosen based on their story as related to themed entertainment, with a result that these films represented many box office under performers.

Disney's dismissal of themed entertainment happened well before the Wizarding World of Harry Potter opened.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. The last big attraction boom at Disney World was in 2005-2006 when Soarin', Everest and Lights Motors Action opened. Since Potter was announced, the only attraction that was added/changed that didn't involve an Intellectual Property was the Test Track overhaul. More importantly, Iger also said the following.

As we spend money at the parks on new attractions that are based on known intellectual property and brands, the likelihood of their success is greater. So when we increase Toy Story’s presence or other Pixar presence, when we put Frozen in the parks, when we grow Star Wars presence, which we will do significantly, when we do it with Princess, for instance, you’re going to see, I think, basically better bets being made that pay off, that are more likely to pay off for us than some of the bets that were made in the past. - Bob Iger, Quarter 3, Fiscal Year 2014 Earnings Call

I think we both seem to agree on the problem, it's just a matter of when it started. Now, if you'll allow me to link to perhaps the greatest Disney writer of our time - here's an article on this very subject: Addicted to the Easy Money
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. The last big attraction boom at Disney World was in 2005-2006 when Soarin', Everest and Lights Motors Action opened. Since Potter was announced, the only attraction that was added/changed that didn't involve an Intellectual Property was the Test Track overhaul. More importantly, Iger also said the following.

As we spend money at the parks on new attractions that are based on known intellectual property and brands, the likelihood of their success is greater. So when we increase Toy Story’s presence or other Pixar presence, when we put Frozen in the parks, when we grow Star Wars presence, which we will do significantly, when we do it with Princess, for instance, you’re going to see, I think, basically better bets being made that pay off, that are more likely to pay off for us than some of the bets that were made in the past. - Bob Iger, Quarter 3, Fiscal Year 2014 Earnings Call

I think we both seem to agree on the problem, it's just a matter of when it started. Now, if you'll allow me to link to perhaps the greatest Disney writer of our time - here's an article on this very subject: Addicted to the Easy Money
Eisner and Roy E. both described Disneyland as being about the movies. Disney's California Adventure was all about being an anti-theme park, with a lot of mockery undertones and the designer of esplanade bragging that she never goes to theme parks. The problems and people all started in the 1980s and grew until it was all handed over to Pressler (who changed the business model) and then Rasulo and Staggs (the strategic planning boys who mired the company). That is when it became about box office and toys, not themed entertainment. Constantly saying films deserve to be in the park only reinforces that Disney is right to dismiss the creative power of themed entertainment and use unrelated metrics.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
Eisner and Roy E. both described Disneyland as being about the movies. Disney's California Adventure was all about being an anti-theme park, with a lot of mockery undertones and the designer of esplanade bragging that she never goes to theme parks. The problems and people all started in the 1980s and grew until it was all handed over to Pressler (who changed the business model) and then Rasulo and Staggs (the strategic planning boys who mired the company). That is when it became about box office and toys, not themed entertainment. Constantly saying films deserve to be in the park only reinforces that Disney is right to dismiss the creative power of themed entertainment and use unrelated metrics.

I think it is difficult for some people to make the distinction between box office and themed entertainment as it relates to a theme park. They somehow think one can not exist without the other, especially in terms of theme park attractions. Their lack of understanding shines through when you see the vague and widespread rebuttals such as "Disney is a business", or "Its the China pavilion, so Mulan BELONGS there". TWDC enables, and most likely welcomes this type of thinking as it allows them to continue to play it safe with new attractions by just slapping an IP on the title.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I think it is difficult for some people to make the distinction between box office and themed entertainment as it relates to a theme park. They somehow think one can not exist without the other, especially in terms of theme park attractions. Their lack of understanding shines through when you see the vague and widespread rebuttals such as "Disney is a business", or "Its the China pavilion, so Mulan BELONGS there". TWDC enables, and most likely welcomes this type of thinking as it allows them to continue to play it safe with new attractions by just slapping an IP on the title.
But it's not just those who just seem to instinctively defend Disney, those who I would say are more fans of Disney as a name and brand (with a focus on the studio) than themed entertainment. I know @RSoxNo1 is not someone who just wants whatever Disney does, but he still speaks in the language of inherent inferiority. What other object of affection has such dismissal from its fans? People who are into wine don't go around saying wine should follow beer. Football fans don't want the sport to follow baseball. Movie fans don't say all films should be based on books. But fixed amusements fans love to dismiss their fandom as pointless and stupid. No love. No respect.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
But fixed amusements fans love to dismiss their fandom as pointless and stupid. No love. No respect.
Most people think that because they loved the movie, that they are respecting it by demanding an attraction be constructed for it. I chalk that up to selfishness, not passion. Then comes the thought process of, "I like dark rides, so it should be a dark ride and I will like it". The thought never enters their mind that there are actually creative men and woman out there who could come up with something so unique and creative (if allowed) that it would blow the minds of the average guest.., you know, the people who think an attraction must have a character their child will recognize otherwise its boring and pointless.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
XsmvK3k.jpg


I didnt like most of the movie, but your hate is ridiculous. bordering of vendetta levels.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
This has been quite the LOL tonight but is there any information about the meet and greet being built. Any insiders have specific details - a meet and Greet (of course) but dining and retail included?? It will be interesting once it opens. And there is another Frozen movie being developed to appeal to the people who have spent a lot of $$$$$$$$$$ for the mouse. Frozen can actually be in three of the four parks and get away with it. It's the 21st century princess just like Sleepy Beauty and Cinderella was decades ago. The gang is here to stay. Sorry people but it's not going away.
if there is a dinnin area.. does this means the princess will move from Akershus into the Frozen "castle" ?
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
if there is a dinnin area.. does this means the princess will move from Akershus into the Frozen "castle" ?

what frozen castle?? no frozen castle happening here........ as for Akershus that is the only dining area as is and there's been rumors of changes but nothing concrete. (personally I would like to see the princess zoo moved elsewhere, I just dont see how they are going to handle all this but then they didn't think with their heads on so.......) anyway Elsa's Eatery has been floating around whether that means a replacement or something new entirely I don't know....The frozen merch has been moved into the back room of the main store, at the rides exit of course...beyond that not aware of any new merch areas in the new meetngreet building etc..
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
It's not box office which determines IPs in the parks now- it's merchandise sales. That's why Stitch was everywhere for awhile; he moved a lot of merchandise. Cars? TONS of merchandise. Conversely, that's why Mulan and Pocahontas only have one meet & greet each- they're the least popular princesses from a merchandise/ marketing standpoint.
 

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