AEfx
Well-Known Member
That's just it. Quite a few apparently. See the links I have provided.
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Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
That's just it. Quite a few apparently. See the links I have provided.
AEfx
Well-Known Member
To be fair, it is cheesy and stupid (and somewhat embarassing) that Disney feels they have as much "sponsoring" as they do. It's not like they are some kids running the snack bar at a high school football game trying to earn money for a class trip, LOL.
That's actually always bothered me.
That said, it's the reason these pavilions exist - folks from organizations in the "home" countries paid to be part of the "World Showcase". Isn't that funny, though? That this somehow bastion of cultural authenticity known as World Showcase could be bought into if you had enough money to throw? That the country selection wasn't some carefully curated thematic masterpiece, but actually a really long storefront that they sold off to those willing to foot the tab?
But Frozen is the last straw!
FigmentJedi
Well-Known Member
Totally sorry, perhaps it's my monitor playing tricks on me - can you show me where Nordic Gods and Trolls were suddenly taken from the realm of fantasy and put into reality? We gotta get on that man - start a CNN iReport or something - folks gotta know! If those are suddenly real due to this discovery, who knows what else might be real? THERE COULD BE DRAGONS! And if so, I'm sure Disney has a crack team out there getting ready to capture one and bring it home and put it in it's "natural" environment constructed out of plexiglass and cement as only Disney knows how.
And let us not forget the witchcraft that is Benjamin Franklin and Marc Twain alive at the same time, a Chinese poet that's been dead for centuries using his spooky powers to take us all over the country, or before the birds moved in, an Aztec ghost introducing us to the Aztec Pantheon doing weird dances.
Flights of cultural fantasy in World Showcase aren't exclusive to Maelstrom.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The Norway inspiration has been repeated constantly by Disney. It's hardly something people already knew.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
flights of fantasy is not the same as claiming American culture as Norwegian. It's the very sort of cultural disregard that lends to negative perceptions regarding Americans.
Disneyhead'71
Well-Known Member
I believe this sums up how the Norwegian government feels about the subject.
AEfx
Well-Known Member
I don't know if that's true or not - I haven't paid much attention to Frozen to be honest, just finally saw it a week or two ago - but if it is, then isn't that the true mission of World Showcase, then? A Disney product/attraction that encourages folks to see out the reality behind the fantasy? And coupled with the fact that folks who should know Norway (Norwegians) state that the film very much is based on Norway? (Not just the link I provided, there are others out there - and even one in this very thread from someone who actually doesn't want the ride, but concedes that yes, it has quite a bit of Norway in it - but that didn't get much attention as they were bowled over with the "I'm not from Norway but I know what's Norwegian - FROZEN IS NOT NORWEGIAN!" crowd.)
You are making an argument for it being included even if you didn't know it.
Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
That's like saying that Channel 8 News in Sheboygan speaks for the White House. ONE news report does not mean anything and in fact might mean just the opposite (Dan Rather learned that the hard way).
FigmentJedi
Well-Known Member
I'm not justifying Frozen. I'm just saying decrying Maelstrom as a bad representation of Norway because it featured trolls and gods is silly when World Showcase's attractions aren't so rigidly realistic
GoofGoof
Premium Member
I don't have a dog in this race anymore and I generally side with you and the Captain on Frozen Norway not being a good idea, but that quote from a 1975 annual report barely resembles what EPCOT is now or ever was. I don't think you need to fall back on that to make the statement that you don't like toons in World Showcase. Toons have so many other places in WDW. EPCOT World Showcase should be a celebration of the actual cultures of the countries represented. That's my opinion. Just because Donald Duck has invaded Mexico doesn't make it any better.
I'm kinda over it now though. I've changed my focus to hoping that the ride is at least half decent and that they do something to prevent a complete disaster with the queue and meet and greet lines. It doesn't make me an apologist. It's just not worth it to me to be that upset over this. If you guys want to keep fighting the fight, more power to you. After 133 pages nobody is changing anyone's mind.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
Disney made the movie. They should know what inspired it. Then again, they didn't write the original story so who knows.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
You are still confusing being based on with being about. How does the film's plot significantly change if the setting is based in Russia? Are Spaghetti Westerns American films? Is Middle Earth now about New Zealand?I don't know if that's true or not - I haven't paid much attention to Frozen to be honest, just finally saw it a week or two ago - but if it is, then isn't that the true mission of World Showcase, then? A Disney product/attraction that encourages folks to see out the reality behind the fantasy? And coupled with the fact that folks who should know Norway (Norwegians) state that the film very much is based on Norway? (Not just the link I provided, there are others out there - and even one in this very thread from someone who actually doesn't want the ride, but concedes that yes, it has quite a bit of Norway in it - but that didn't get much attention as they were bowled over with the "I'm not from Norway but I know what's Norwegian - FROZEN IS NOT NORWEGIAN!" crowd.)
You are making an argument for it being included even if you didn't know it.
World Showcase ism ot just inspiring tourism and curiosity, it had a specific mechanism by using actual cultural artifacts. By using the aesthetic, food, commerce and people. The people designing EPCOT Center knew that Disney's most popular films came from many of the represented countries. Imagineers like Herb Ryman were noted world travelers. Sponsors were not alone in being consulted, with many experts hired for the entire project to provide more than vague inspirational notions of aesthetics. The visa issued to International Program participants was devised by Disney and sold to the federal government because the endeavor aimed to do some. Yeah, you'll probably just dismiss it as a mall, but that is not at all how it's designers viewed the project. It is also an attitude that reinforces the neglect of Walt Disney World. It's just some theme parks. They're not as important as films or television or merchandise. People went nuts for a summer event put together at the last minute and now the expectation is that the formula will work again with a ride.
Disney has already said the ride will focus on the characters and music, not the aesthetic or even its inspiration. Those who leave knowing the connection to Norway will be those you entered knowing. That knowledge and inspiration will not have come from World Showcase, and those who are looking for more to that connection in World Showcase will be disappointed to only find repetitions of the film.
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lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Huh? I was not doubting the Norwegian inspiration. I was doubting that masses of people knew it without Disney mentioning it.
AEfx
Well-Known Member
Yup, says it right there - they don't care because they found few people ever went to Norway because of the pavilion.
Their financial investment didn't pan out in Epcot being the ultimate tourism booth they thought it would.
No wonder they don't care now, especially, as they didn't have to lift a finger and Disney's film was so clearly connected that tourism went up 37% in a year. Why pay for it if you are already getting the benefit for free? Makes sense to me from a business stand point.
I guess, though, while it's aside from the overall reality of the matter, I think that folks need to start preparing themselves for what may very well be the future of World Showcase and it has nothing to do with Frozen being added but the change in overall circumstances (as lazyboy astutely pointed out, I'll go one further) - WDW doesn't exist in a vacuum.
In the 1/4 century since Norway was added (my goodness, we are all getting old!), not a single country has been added to World Showcase. Not even by Saint Eisner of the Theme Park who ruled for a good time after that. I think it's pretty obvious as to why - we know there are at least places for several more countries already there that could go, and places within existing countries (Germany, Japan at least that I know of off the top of my head - @marni1971 ?) for rides to be built. In spite of many rumors and verifiable early plans, they haven't.
So while this seems to be a symptom of the current state of WDW - it's always been the elephant in the middle of the lagoon (Illuminations - mmmm - fried Elephant). Disney isn't about to build any countries and pay for it themselves, other countries aren't willing to lease a place in Epcot anymore and apparently haven't been for decades. Even existing countries won't put up the cash for a new ride. (And it must be acknowledged that as we established earlier in the thread, the countries for the most part aren't the ones paying - it's corporations - and yet they can't even find one of those to want to get in bed with the Mouse at Epcot, which is astounding.)
So nothing has happened there for 25 years. It's not the "new cheap Disney" that we all know and despise doing this, it's the always been cheap Disney who expects other companies to pay for attractions in their theme parks - the cache of being part of Epcot, of being part of Disney, of even being associated with a "monument" in America - does not have the draw it had in 1982.
You know what? I'll reverse one of my earlier points, this discussion has made me consider further the long term of WS (been stagnant so long, never gave much thought to what happens "after") - this may very well be a slippery slope. I think the Entertainment being shelved is more indicative of change coming than anything else, honestly. The "original mission" of WS was demonstrably about getting countries to buy into what in a certain way be seen as the big scale International Edition of DVC - buy in to set up your tourism booth. Write the check and we will take care of everything else.
I get why folks are upset - for 25 years, the place has unintentionally turned into a museum of sorts. One with a really really nice food court and shopping. And pretty as a button. It's original mission to grow, expand, etc. never came to fruition, and folks have gotten used to it being stagnant for so long they have convinced themselves that it's always been about something that it's not, and never was. It's making folks feel the equivalent of learning how Santa gets the gifts under the tree - as a kid, it's traumatic, but can you image what it would be like not knowing until you are an adult if it went on as long as this has?
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Cultural and educational experiences continue to be a big part of the themed entertainment industry. Expos continue to be spectacles that delight many even with Americans ignoring them. World Showcase's ideas and concepts have only been repeated more and more. Disney even once dreamed of doing it all again. The lack of willing sponsorship is not limited to World Showcase or EPCOT Center, instead occurring across the board as Disney has demanded more while delivering less.
aladdin2007
Well-Known Member
Its not astounding when they find out what Disney and Imagineering charges not only for design and construction but just in research and bluesky alone, cant blame them one bit for wanting nothing to do with Disney or an attraction sponsorship. In terms of Epcot its a program that has needed major retooling for a long time now. It doesn't work anymore.
misterID
Well-Known Member
Initially, Norway received a huge bump in tourism after Norway was opened, and Disney doesn't need the host countries to fund them, which someone pointed out earlier.
And South Korea really, really, really wanted a Pavilion and Disney said no. I believe Brazil also? So blaming the theme or park's mission itself, and not the clowns in charge of the park is a little off base.
They could have built a French pavilion hosted by Remy, I wouldn't have minded that (though, some diehard fans definitely would). They could have built an incredible ride for Japan and utilized Godzilla, which was proposed. They haven't. The stagnation of WS has never had anything to do with the concept, mission or theme, it was always the people running it. This isn't some change in philosophy and major refurb, it's an (too) easy solution to put the IP in the parks and have a ride complement the real target: The gift shop. Again, we're not getting a new ride, but a repurposed one.
So really, this is in no way a solution to the "stagnant" problems you're pointing out. All we're getting is HUGE problem coming to WS because of the short sided, narrow-mined, not very well thought out problem thanks to the TWDC clowns who don't understand the entire WDW resort.
spacemt354
Chili's
Your logic doesn't make sense to me.With all due respect, if you are going to hop on a thread and reply to someone, you should at least familiarize yourself with the recent posts in the discussion that are relevant.
You actually just proved my point, though - you don't need to be told on most rides what it's about. Maelstrom, if it wasn't for the signage and that audio clip, if most guests were brought backstage to the loading area and dumped on the ride they wouldn't know what the heck it was about, and I'm betting a tiny tiny percentage of folks would think it had anything to do with Norway. The last scene could easily be Alaska, for example.
You want to blindfold up to the load dock, remove the title sign to the attraction and the audio of the attraction then ask guests to say where they are?
What about the Viking boats and Viking AAs combined with Norwegian mythology? When people see Vikings, more often than not they think Scandinavia...
You keep taking more stuff away to "prove" your argument. Next you'll blindfold and earplug them throughout the whole ride and have them guess where they are....
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
It's not even just a repurposed ride. Nobody at Disny expected the film to be a hit so that means Designing an attraction, which is usually a three year process, has been hurried through in something like half a year and at best like nine months. The annual haunt attractions that are starting to open get more time dedicated to design.