-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Disney Club ending
- Thread starter cindy_k
- Start date
I have to agree with niteobsrvr to an extent.
I don't feel like anyone here is arguing that repeat customers aren't important. Of course they are. But, do you really feel like Disney's repeat customers are ONLY repeat customers because of the Disney Club?
I really would insist that those people go back again and again because they LOVE DISNEY WORLD -- the discounts etc. just help them to get there (and there are still plenty of discount plans/packages/codes etc. which will continue to be available).
I understand that people are upset to see the club end...but it does not signify that Disney is turning its corporate back on those of us who are repeat customers. And more to the point, it does not necessarily represent poor corporate decision making.
niteobsrvr
Well-Known Member
OFF TOPIC POST
When I post to these boards, I do my best to post honestly and intelligently. If I feel that my point needs additional clarification, it is my right to do so. This is the beauty of a public forum.
I also realize that occasionally some folks will feel the need to personally attack me or another poster for expressing their opinion. In these situations, it is appropriate to respond. However, i won't point fingers or call names. I will just let the other persons message represent itself as I post my response.
Having said this, I feel it is totally unneccessary for someone to suggest I depart from these forums just because he or she doesn't agree with my opinion.
Opinions and our freedom to express them is one of the basic rights bestowed upon us by our Constitution. Walt himself loved the freedoms of this country. Without these basic rights there may never have been a Mickey Mouse, a Disneyland, A Walt Disney World, or any other part of the Disney heritage and empire.
I find it alarming that everyday we have to be careful about what we say for fear of offending someone. Afterall, it is this dialogue of opinions that has served us since July 4, 1776 to create a country that is diversified and unique. A country that celebrates individuality and creativity. Without this communication, we would be much like other nations that supress and dictate to their people. We would quite possibly be no better off than the countries we are hearing about in the news today.
I appreciate everyone allowing me to express my opinion and apologize for being off topic.
When I post to these boards, I do my best to post honestly and intelligently. If I feel that my point needs additional clarification, it is my right to do so. This is the beauty of a public forum.
I also realize that occasionally some folks will feel the need to personally attack me or another poster for expressing their opinion. In these situations, it is appropriate to respond. However, i won't point fingers or call names. I will just let the other persons message represent itself as I post my response.
Having said this, I feel it is totally unneccessary for someone to suggest I depart from these forums just because he or she doesn't agree with my opinion.
Opinions and our freedom to express them is one of the basic rights bestowed upon us by our Constitution. Walt himself loved the freedoms of this country. Without these basic rights there may never have been a Mickey Mouse, a Disneyland, A Walt Disney World, or any other part of the Disney heritage and empire.
I find it alarming that everyday we have to be careful about what we say for fear of offending someone. Afterall, it is this dialogue of opinions that has served us since July 4, 1776 to create a country that is diversified and unique. A country that celebrates individuality and creativity. Without this communication, we would be much like other nations that supress and dictate to their people. We would quite possibly be no better off than the countries we are hearing about in the news today.
I appreciate everyone allowing me to express my opinion and apologize for being off topic.
mickeyfanatics
New Member
Some of you take these issues and this board too seriously. I have a comment for you that I am not intending to insult anyone, just to prove a point....
Some of you have WAY too much time on your hands to debate this issue and need to get a life.
The only reason I got the Disney Club was for the discount on the Theme Park Tickets. I already get the Disney Store and DTD discounts with DVC. I did not even pay for my membership, it was a gift. If the club is losing money ,eliminate it. Put that money into making something new and exciting.
Some of you have WAY too much time on your hands to debate this issue and need to get a life.
The only reason I got the Disney Club was for the discount on the Theme Park Tickets. I already get the Disney Store and DTD discounts with DVC. I did not even pay for my membership, it was a gift. If the club is losing money ,eliminate it. Put that money into making something new and exciting.
cymbaldiva
Active Member
I thought that the point of this board was that Disney "Nuts" like ourselves could debate Disney issues...is it not? 
Disney Club - I will miss it...any price break always helps! :animwink: As for using the discount at the Disney Store, that is a totally irrelevant feature of the Club for me - they don't carry anything I particularly care to buy anymore (well, except for the antenna toppers, but they're cheap anyway! )
It is very sad to me that to buy adult Disney clothes I have to go to Walmart because the Disney Store doesn't carry them...
Disney Club - I will miss it...any price break always helps! :animwink: As for using the discount at the Disney Store, that is a totally irrelevant feature of the Club for me - they don't carry anything I particularly care to buy anymore (well, except for the antenna toppers, but they're cheap anyway!
)It is very sad to me that to buy adult Disney clothes I have to go to Walmart because the Disney Store doesn't carry them...
thedisneyfan
Member
First of all this is the place to debate and even your WRONG opinion:animwink: should be welcomed here.
Second, lets look at how your response failed to mention all of my true and reasoned logical facts stated in my original post. You neglected to address the hundreds of millions of dollars that DC members spend with the Disney Club---either through DTD, rooms, tickets, TDS, and how getting these discounts lead to more non-discounted purchases such as spending in the theme parks. Therefore the costs of the program which are more than paid for in the fees alone are well worth it. What's not worth it is frustrating your most loyal customer base! Plus, they still make some profit from the fees (maybe not the entire twenty million but there is some profit from the fees alone). Coming from someone in the legal field, you in the business field should be more careful when reading posts because I never claimed that the 20 million represented all profit. It IS IMPORTANT to read things very, very carefully.
Third, having 500,000 people in this club is an amazing number by all industry accounts. If it was not a major number, then you would have 500,000 in the Warner Bros. or Universal Club. But such does not exist, that is why it is important for Disney not to irritate this group or lose this group---which these actions are very well doing right now. You also ignore the logical fact that 500,000 is the member #, however that does not represent the fact these people are the ones who constantly give the most repeat business to Disney, thus representing millions of the 30,000,000 attendance figures. Also you logically ignore that the 500,000 # does not represent all the DC members that have families and hence the family members of the DC members likewise represent millions more of that 30,000,000 figure! Seems as though your illogical and poor reasoned claim that 500,000 is a minority just doesn't hold water once you apply a little reason and logic to this issue rather than pure emotions! Maybe you need to get a little (Or rather a lot of reason and logic to back up your opinion---too bad most reason and logic rests with my side of this issue :animwink: ).
Fourth, actions like this one ARE the reason why Disney has been doing poorly in more recent years and are major causes of poor stock prices and reduced business. Cutting off your most loyal customers and fans has been cutting deeply into Disney's bottom line. Let's all hope that someone with smarts in the Disney corporation gets this through their thick skulls! It's Time to Remember the Magic! :sohappy:
prberk
Well-Known Member
Hey, niteobsrvr, I meant it when I said that I was not trying to be rude but just straightforward. I enjoy full discussion.
I also think change is fine, but not just for its own sake.
As for your response to my post, I am especially concerned that you blew past the complete meaning of my point # 3 in your response to it. I tried to make it clear that any deal with Visa would not have to have direct effect on any Disney membership club. American Express, AAA, and others have had similar deals and promotions all along, right alongside the Disney Club and its predecessor, the MKC.
I also want to note that I do know the difference between revenue and profit. My post started with the $20 (or less) revenue, but went on to discuss the other revenues that would come (like incidental sales encouraged by "an additional 10% off, " or even decisions that came from the hotel discounts). These revenues that would not have come otherwise are not counted in your argument.
The fact, as I see it, is that the Disney Club or MKC was just a fine way to streamline marketing and promotions to your best customers, while making them feel special. The same goes for discounts and newsletters to annual passholders. They cost money to administer, but they more than pay for themselves in use and incentives to make that "one more thing" purchase or vacation weekend.
Finally, as for "branding" and "marketing research" versus product: focus groups and corporate "research" created New Coke in the '80s! It had a world of "branded" marketing force working for it, but the fact is the customer wanted the original product. They did not want "New" Coke, with or without the world's other most popular brand! :animwink:
I also think change is fine, but not just for its own sake.
As for your response to my post, I am especially concerned that you blew past the complete meaning of my point # 3 in your response to it. I tried to make it clear that any deal with Visa would not have to have direct effect on any Disney membership club. American Express, AAA, and others have had similar deals and promotions all along, right alongside the Disney Club and its predecessor, the MKC.
I also want to note that I do know the difference between revenue and profit. My post started with the $20 (or less) revenue, but went on to discuss the other revenues that would come (like incidental sales encouraged by "an additional 10% off, " or even decisions that came from the hotel discounts). These revenues that would not have come otherwise are not counted in your argument.
The fact, as I see it, is that the Disney Club or MKC was just a fine way to streamline marketing and promotions to your best customers, while making them feel special. The same goes for discounts and newsletters to annual passholders. They cost money to administer, but they more than pay for themselves in use and incentives to make that "one more thing" purchase or vacation weekend.
Finally, as for "branding" and "marketing research" versus product: focus groups and corporate "research" created New Coke in the '80s! It had a world of "branded" marketing force working for it, but the fact is the customer wanted the original product. They did not want "New" Coke, with or without the world's other most popular brand! :animwink:
prberk
Well-Known Member
For the record, I prefer the free MKC to the Disney Club. I think Walt had it right, all the way back to the '50s, when used clubs to reach people.
He subtly created customers while making them feel special.
Even the earliest Mickey Mouse Clubs (before the TV shows) and Davy Crockett clubs were like that. The adult versions are only a natural extension...
He subtly created customers while making them feel special.
Even the earliest Mickey Mouse Clubs (before the TV shows) and Davy Crockett clubs were like that. The adult versions are only a natural extension...
thedisneyfan
Member
Nicely put prberk!
niteobsrvr
Well-Known Member
OK, I lied, yet another post. Usually, I am good for my word but this time I have to make an exception.
I believe that I read the above statement correctly and that is why I went on to make a basic definition of Profit vs. Revenue. I have found that there are a lot of people who fail to see the distinction between the two. Therefore I felt it an important point to clarify.
The hundreds of millions spent by Disney Club members is still a small number, although a bigger small number, compared to the billions of dollars spent by the other 24.5 million repeat customers at Disney World. I intentionally left out the expenditures the Disney Club members make just for this reason.
Even if Disney Club members visited the park on average 4 times a year with a family of 4, we have still only accounted for 8 million of the 24 million repeat visitors. So the non Disney Club guest who are repeat Visitors out number the club members 2 to 1. This doesnt even take into account the other 6 million people who have never been to Disney at all. (by the way, the 30 million appears to be an older number, I just did some attendance searches and it appears the number should be closer to 40 million.)
Two years ago the figure was about 4,000 dollars that a family of 4 spent on a Disney vacation. so if we take 500,000 and assume that each membership represents a family of 4 who visits 4 times we get a figure of about 8 Billion. I would have to agree that is a good cunk of change. But now we still have 22 million other visitors that we need to divide into families of 4. Thats 5,500,000 families at 4 grand a vacation or 22 billion dollars or about $2.75 for every one Disney Club dollar.
We have to keep in mind that these figures are averages that the Disney company was using about 2 years ago. Things might very well be different now.
My point here is that Disney needs to court the majority of their guests. To do that they have to have programs that will appeal to greater than 500,000 people. More importantly, they need programs that will convert the 20% of non repeat customers over to repeat business. I believe they have found that a fee based rewards system doesn't interest enough of their cusotmers to justify it.
The Disney Club members are a special group. Disney realizes this but it also realizes that in order to appease its board and shareholders it had better come up with a good growth strategy. Disney club members are loyal but probably spend about the same on Disney every year with or without Discounts. This doesnt make for growth.
They have to worry about converting everyone but the Disney club members to repeat customers and getting them to spend more. Thus the VISA card and its mass appeal. At the same time, they recognize that there will be casualties among the DC members. But if you truly love Disney how long will you go away just because you can't save 10 percent on something?
A final thought on why Disney is changing stances. Disney is becoming a commodity with the proliferation of its brand around the world. If you look at most companies history, when this happens their marketing strategy changes drastically.
I believe that I read the above statement correctly and that is why I went on to make a basic definition of Profit vs. Revenue. I have found that there are a lot of people who fail to see the distinction between the two. Therefore I felt it an important point to clarify.
The hundreds of millions spent by Disney Club members is still a small number, although a bigger small number, compared to the billions of dollars spent by the other 24.5 million repeat customers at Disney World. I intentionally left out the expenditures the Disney Club members make just for this reason.
Even if Disney Club members visited the park on average 4 times a year with a family of 4, we have still only accounted for 8 million of the 24 million repeat visitors. So the non Disney Club guest who are repeat Visitors out number the club members 2 to 1. This doesnt even take into account the other 6 million people who have never been to Disney at all. (by the way, the 30 million appears to be an older number, I just did some attendance searches and it appears the number should be closer to 40 million.)
Two years ago the figure was about 4,000 dollars that a family of 4 spent on a Disney vacation. so if we take 500,000 and assume that each membership represents a family of 4 who visits 4 times we get a figure of about 8 Billion. I would have to agree that is a good cunk of change. But now we still have 22 million other visitors that we need to divide into families of 4. Thats 5,500,000 families at 4 grand a vacation or 22 billion dollars or about $2.75 for every one Disney Club dollar.
We have to keep in mind that these figures are averages that the Disney company was using about 2 years ago. Things might very well be different now.
My point here is that Disney needs to court the majority of their guests. To do that they have to have programs that will appeal to greater than 500,000 people. More importantly, they need programs that will convert the 20% of non repeat customers over to repeat business. I believe they have found that a fee based rewards system doesn't interest enough of their cusotmers to justify it.
The Disney Club members are a special group. Disney realizes this but it also realizes that in order to appease its board and shareholders it had better come up with a good growth strategy. Disney club members are loyal but probably spend about the same on Disney every year with or without Discounts. This doesnt make for growth.
They have to worry about converting everyone but the Disney club members to repeat customers and getting them to spend more. Thus the VISA card and its mass appeal. At the same time, they recognize that there will be casualties among the DC members. But if you truly love Disney how long will you go away just because you can't save 10 percent on something?
A final thought on why Disney is changing stances. Disney is becoming a commodity with the proliferation of its brand around the world. If you look at most companies history, when this happens their marketing strategy changes drastically.
Tigggrl
Well-Known Member
Kinda retail point of view....
The Disney Club card only works when you spend 50.00 or more before taxes...I can not begin to tell you how many Guests get upset because they want the discount on a lesser amount...I am not able to accomodate that, and therefore they get upset.....
The American Express card works the same way, for now....
But according to the rumors I have heard, it isnt going to be the Prefeered Card much longer....LOL!
Anew program should be in place...
The Premium Annual Pass is also the only one at DL that gives you the discount, and that is any purchase over 10.00. IF you are going to be there for any length of time, thats the way to go.....
Just my Opinion, of course!:wave:
The Disney Club card only works when you spend 50.00 or more before taxes...I can not begin to tell you how many Guests get upset because they want the discount on a lesser amount...I am not able to accomodate that, and therefore they get upset.....
The American Express card works the same way, for now....
But according to the rumors I have heard, it isnt going to be the Prefeered Card much longer....LOL!
Anew program should be in place...
The Premium Annual Pass is also the only one at DL that gives you the discount, and that is any purchase over 10.00. IF you are going to be there for any length of time, thats the way to go.....
Just my Opinion, of course!:wave:
mickeyfanatics
New Member
I was speaking of those who do nothing else but argue here, not those who make real sense.
inlovewithWDW
New Member
Hey everyone - I just heard the Disney Club is ending in 2003!
That really stinks... (isn't that what this post was about?)
:hammer:
That really stinks... (isn't that what this post was about?)
:hammer:
thedisneyfan
Member
Actually it only takes a $25.00 purchase at DTD not $50.00 and there is no minimmum for discounts at the Disney Store or on park hopper, or pass tickets. Lets face it, it doesn't take much to get $25.00 worth of stuff at World of Disney.
In addition, my major point is that yes Disney needs to go after new customers and broaden its business base, but you don't do it at the expense of your most loyal customers and fans---who are the biggest and cheapest way of mass advertising by the way! Maybe niteobsrvr and Disney need to think about that one!
Dwarful
Well-Known Member
Ok first off let me say I didn't have time to read 4 pages of this theme so here is my .02! we have been members of the Disney club since it was the Magic Kingdom Club. Will I stop going to WDW or DL because they are ending the club? NO. Will I seriously cut back on my purchases at the Disney Store? SURE! Someone mentioned the discount was only on $50 or more. We never had that apply to us at the stores or the outlet store in Missouri. But anyone who walks into my house knows right away we are Disney People! I will miss the card, the benefits coupons etc! How much were they spending on the Club vs. how much were they receiving from club members? If I pay $40 for membership, get a card, a quarterly magazine and an occasional mailing with discounts and special offers. Now I spend on average well over $1,000 a year at the stores...not to mention theme park visits! Disney is getting far more from me being a member than I am in fmember materials! Just my opinion..I will miss the club...hate to see it go!
FourFourSeven
Member
Okay, I was being good, but I'm going to jump in here. I'm going to try to look at this from a logical, financial point of view, without being too rude.
First, since business school qualifications apparently matter in this discussion, I went to b-school at the #1 ranked school in the country according to a recent major publication. Despite that, I still think I know what I'm talking about. Anyway, here are my comments:You're making the assumption that the, as you call them, "most loyal fans," will stop spending their hundreds of millions of dollars if the club goes away. You really think the "most loyal fans" will cut off Disney entirely? Some loyalty... Maybe what you mean to say is that these "most loyal fans" will spend hundreds of millions of dollars more with the card than without. Let's see if that's actually the case:
Let's do some actual financial analysis with absurd assumptions to try to prove your point and still fail. Note I'm only looking at revenue here, not income, for simplicity's sake.
The assumptions I'm using
-There are 500,000 members in the Disney Club.
-Half don't use their card in a given year (probably a good assumption, many forget, or are members through their company as a perk but never use it, or just like the magazine. I know many people who fit this category).
-For those who use the card, the average purchases at the Disney Store are $150 yearly. And, assume they would have spent only $50 per year otherwise. (in other words, that 10% discount triples expenditures.)
-Every single one of those 250,000 people went to Disney (absolutely absurd assumption, I bet it's half that).
-Only 200,000 would have gone to Disney otherwise. (an absurd assumption, I can't imagine a 5-10% discount makes that big a difference to the "most loyal fans." I really don't think they have such elastic demand on price that a 5% discount increases demand by 25%. But hey, let's go with it.)
-Each park attendee spends $1000 on tickets, $1000 on Disney hotels, and $1000 on other Disney stuff.
-Assume a 5% discount on tickets, 10% on hotels, and 10% on other stuff.
-Also, assume these hotel rooms would all go empty otherwise (again, totally absurd assumption), and so every room filled is additional revenue. (When, in fact, they would often be filled by those who pay more than the Disney Club price). Oh, and they'll never go to a sold-out restaurant, so no food purchases would be replaced by others.
Revenues from these folks with club fees:
Club fee: $40 * 500,000 = $20MM
Disney store: $150*(.9) * 250,000 = $33.7MM
Tickets = $1000*250,000*(.95) = $237.5MM
Hotels = $1000*250,000*(.9) = $225MM
Other stuff = $1000*250,000*(.9) = 225MM
Total revenue from these folks with the Disney Club = $741MM
Now lets look at the same group without the Disney Club:
Revenue:
Club fee: Nothing
Disney Store = $50*250,000 = $12.5MM
Tickets = 1000*200000 = $200 MM
Hotels = 1000*200000 = 200MM
Other Stuff = 1000*200000 = 200MM
Total Revenue from these folks without the Disney Club = $613MM
The difference in revenue before taxes, using my extremely optimistic assumptions, is under $130 Million.
Last year, according to their annual report, Disney's revenue was $25 billion.
So, with these incredibly absurd assumptions, the Disney Club accounts for an increase of just one half of one percent of all revenue. I suspect Disney folks did similar analysis with better assumptions (they have far better and more realistic data than than I, not to mention the ability to do market research), and I wouldn't be surprised if the total revenue difference is under $20 million, or, essentially, nothing.
Is it really worth much management attention for less than 1/2 of 1% of your revenue? Especially when they have a far more appealing (and profitable) alternative - the Visa Disney Card deal. You're a die-hard Disney fan - you're telling me you won't get one to earn Disney points? To get cheaper vacations? Of course you will. And will you use these points to go to Disney more? You might. And what's the cost to Disney? If it's like the airline mileage cards, essentially nothing. If it's like a mileage card, the bank will pay Disney something like 1 cent per "mile", to cover the cost of the benefits Disney gives. On top of that, the bank has agreed to advertise more on Disney-owned networks.
The "die hard fan" will use the card for all purchases (and of course pay off the balance in full each month
). After a few years, he/she may have, oh, 100,000 points. It's worth a week at a deluxe resort! Woo hoo! Tell me that free hotel stays or tickets won't be even more of an incentive than a paltry 5-10% discount.If you're going to make arguments based on what's best for Disney financially, be sure you can back up your argument...
Did anyone actually read to the end of this long post? :lol:
cymbaldiva
Active Member
Yeah, I read it all! :animwink:
And no, I won't get the new Disney credit card...I don't generally bother with them.
From all of the cut-backs, one would think that the company is hurting for $$$ - Maybe they should keep that $130 million
And no, I won't get the new Disney credit card...I don't generally bother with them.
From all of the cut-backs, one would think that the company is hurting for $$$ - Maybe they should keep that $130 million
niteobsrvr
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by FourFourSeven
Okay, I was being good, but I'm going to jump in here. I'm going to try to look at this from a logical, financial point of view, without being too rude.
Thank You.
LOL, Business School graduates Unite.
And by the way, Business school doesn't make us right, it just taught us a few basic things about marketing. More importantly, it helped us hone our analytical skills.
FourFourSeven
Member
Originally posted by cymbaldiva
From all of the cut-backs, one would think that the company is hurting for $$$ - Maybe they should keep that $130 million
I would agree, except for two things:
1) I really don't think it's $130 million. I used an absolute pie-in-the-sky best-case scenario, and it's revenue, not income after expenses. I bet the revenue is really much lower. Throw in the expenses, and they're not doing much. They may even be taking a loss, I don't know.
2) Even if they do make a profit with this, Disney, like every company, has a limited amount of capital to work with each year. Say they really have $50 million yearly in revenues from the Disney Club, with, oh, say $40 million in expenses, for a profit of $10 million from this endeavor. Wouldn't they be better off allocating that $40 million to things with a higher rate of return? Maybe they could put that $40 million into some new attractions that will boost attendance. Or a couple of new stores that will generate more in profits.
Here's a simplistic way to look at it. Disney has to cut its capital expenditures. Would you rather they cut the Disney Club, or Mission: Space? Which of the two is more likely to make you come back to Disney?
Really? I can't use the "I went to business school so I'm right" argument?!? Anyway, your comment is true, though I may add I also picked up many other valuable managerial, operational, and financial skills. Also taught me how to read a balance sheet, and taught me what a credit and a debit are. :brick: <-----Me taking accounting.